Childcare: Affordability and Availability

Debate between Yvonne Fovargue and Justin Tomlinson

Tuesday 21st February 2023 Westminster Hall

[Justin Tomlinson]

We are all passionate about early years funding; we would not be here supporting this debate if we were not. I pay tribute to a predecessor in the hon. Lady’s party, David Laws, who was Minister for schools and early years. He also made a productive visit to my constituency. He was meant to be there for about 30 minutes and he stayed for more than three hours; he had to send his officials home. He learned some really good lessons, particularly about the significant difference that childcare can make to development in those early years—a point that was made powerfully in the opening speech. If we are to prioritise an area, those early years make a genuine difference.

As I said, I need to raise the challenges. It is important to keep the Minister absolutely focused, as I know she is. We have lost 500 childcare settings since 2019, with 300 in the last year. The main challenge impacting capacity fundamentally comes down to the fact that the increase in the national living wage, which is above inflation year in, year out, outstrips the set funding given for the 15 and 30 hours, and that makes viability an increasing challenge for nurseries. While we all support the increase in the national living wage, we all want the Minister to be empowered by Treasury to increase the funding provided for the 15 and 30 hours to match the national living wage increase. Then nurseries can worry about whether or not they make a profit on the non-free provision. We have to make it sustainable, because if we continue to lose capacity within the system, that will be an obstacle to people either returning to work or extending their hours.

I know that the Government are looking at different ways to try to provide financial support for nurseries. I know they are looking at ratios. I do not support lowering or changing the ratios because of the impact on quality, and I do not think there is support from parents. From our roundtable, I know that aside from balancing the increases in the national living wage, the other issue is staff retention. If we increase the workload, we will speed up the process of people leaving, which in itself is counterproductive. However, I think we could look at the qualified staff ratios that are needed to be legally compliant with Ofsted. In some cases, people who are in training could be counted for that ratio as well as those who have completed their training, but with Ofsted still keeping an overall view of the quality within the setting. That could be used in either good or outstanding nurseries, which would help.

I know that the Minister is particularly interested in the anomaly around business rates, which we have discussed in previous debates. A nursery within a school setting does not pay business rates, but a stand-alone nursery—like the one the Minister visited, which was about 50 metres away from a school—is subject to business rates, which equate to around £100 a child. If that £100 went back into the childcare provision, it would make a huge difference.

I speak to my final point as a former disability Minister. Society’s awareness of additional needs for young people has increased significantly, which is good and welcome. This was also brought up in the roundtable. Nurseries are about not just putting on fun arts and crafts and play sessions, but providing social care and support for special educational needs and disabilities, parents, communication and language and mental health. We want them to do well with all those extra responsibilities. It is no easy thing for a Minister—every Minister feels that their area should be looked after by Treasury, but Treasury simply cannot say yes to everything. One thing the Minister could do is to make the case for ringfencing additional premiums for those areas; in some cases, that will mean cash. We also heard at the roundtable about the ability to get quick advice. We had one example where a nursery had to wait six months to get advice—a relatively basic piece of training that ultimately was potentially life-saving—which meant that a child had to miss out for six months, because the nursery could not risk taking that child on until the training had been given. The support is partly around the money, and partly around being able to quickly get the staff.

I would not swap this Minister for any other to lead this fight. I know that she is working extremely hard, and she will have our full support if she can unlock any of those challenges.

[Yvonne Fovargue (in the Chair)]

I remind right hon. and hon. Members that a number of people wish to speak. If they could keep within six minutes, that would be very helpful. I call Tim Farron.

Consumer Rights Bill

Debate between Yvonne Fovargue and Justin Tomlinson

Tuesday 13th May 2014 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I have a huge amount of admiration for the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue), who tabled new clause 11, and who brings plenty of front-line experience to the House. She has taken a cross-party, constructive and positive approach on a number of issues, and has a good, strong record of influencing the Government’s opinions.

The new clause is, in effect, the BrightHouse clause, and I was moved to come and speak about it because I had seen the company’s recent television advertisements displaying the cost of renting washing machines, televisions and even the sofas on which people could sit while using the other articles they were renting.

There are two parts to the proposals that I urge the Government to seriously consider. The first concerns displaying the total cost, because often the weekly or monthly repayments seem relatively reasonable but once we translate them over the entire period of the loan, we start to realise they can be a very expensive way to purchase an item. The work I have done on the all-party group on financial education for young people was centred on empowering consumers to make informed decisions, and that should also be a priority in respect of consumer credit regulations. It is all about making sure consumers can make an informed decision, and when the facts are displayed in cash terms even those with limited financial ability are able to make a relatively informed decision.

The point about protecting consumers by making sure they can afford the products is also important. We are moving towards that in the high-cost lending market. It is what we do with bank loans, for instance, and I do not think it is unreasonable to have it in this context, because this is in effect a loan, as until the person has completed the purchase—until they have paid 100% of those monthly or weekly costs—the item is not theirs. If they fall over at the 99% stage, it is returned. It is therefore in effect a loan that gives the person something at the end, so there should be protection because all too often consumers who have no chance of completing 100% of the payments are getting themselves into an expensive way of accessing items. There is merit in those two particular areas and I hope the Government will give them serious consideration.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I am chair of the all-party group on debt and personal finance and we have done constructive work on many of these issues. I support the new clauses and I am pleased that new clause 23 addresses the Victorian practice of bills of sale. They are used for a purpose for which they were never intended. That does not just affect those who take out a loan by using them; it also affects people who do everything they can to check hire purchase information and the credit agreement on the car in question but who do not know their car can still be taken at any time.

I want to speak to my new clause 9, which deals with the problem of credit broking firms. I believe they are the new wild west in this area. They offer, for a fee, to find consumers a loan. In too many cases they take the fees from the consumer and do not give them a service at all, or they find them an unsuitable loan that they do not want. Under some circumstances consumers can get a partial refund, but they often struggle to get these firms to give the refund.

There was a super-complaint by Citizens Advice in 2011 and the Office of Fair Trading concluded:

“At the first available opportunity, the Government should carry out an impact assessment to establish whether legislative change would effectively address the consumer detriment caused by upfront fees in the credit brokerage sector both in the immediate and longer term, including considering a ban on credit brokers charging upfront fees”.

The Government declined to do this, saying that the new OFT guidance issued in response to the super-complaint should be given time to work. It has had two years to work and I am still getting evidence of problems.

I would like to mention a recent constituency case that caused me to look into the practice of one particular company, Myloan. The 18-year-old daughter of a constituent tried to get a loan; unbeknown to her mother and father, she was desperate. She went to Myloan in January. She completed the process and was advised that it could not loan to her, but she had given it her bank account details because it said it would find her a loan. It took the 16-digit number, the security number and an application fee of £68.99. It then processed the application. It sent her details off to 13 other companies. No companies offered her a loan, yet every company took an application fee, and she ended up a further £375 in debt. The majority of that money was taken within nine days of the initial approach. She was 18 and she did not know what would happen if she did this. It is clear that she was taken advantage of by this company.

I looked into this company and there were pages and pages of complaints on the internet of it taking fees and people not getting loans. We need to act now to stop vulnerable consumers being cheated by these companies.

I now wish to deal with the BrightHouse clause, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson). It deals with companies that offer household goods to customers on a rent-to-own basis, whereby, again, they make weekly payments and own the product only once the final payment is made. I am using BrightHouse as an example because it is the largest rent-to-own company in the United Kingdom. It has more than 270 stores and plans to expand at a rate of about one a fortnight. These stores have become a common feature on the high street and tend to be found in more deprived areas. Indeed, it has been remarked that having a BrightHouse store is now a signifier that the area could be deprived, not that BrightHouse’s stores are downbeat or shabby—they look really good.

A TV researcher contacted me about BrightHouse because she had gone into one of its stores to look for a bedside cabinet and was appalled by the amount BrightHouse was charging a week. People who are unable to pay outright for goods and may previously have gone to get a social fund loan now cannot get one and have to use these weekly repayments. They allow customers to pay in small weekly chunks, repayable over several years. That can be convenient but there is a catch or two—if we include the insurance that is included, there is a catch or three. BrightHouse defends adding everything together by saying, “Our target customers are mostly women and they like things simple.” Well this is one woman who does not agree with BrightHouse on that one. Not only do its customers pay a higher price—often higher than is paid in Harrods—but at a typical APR of 69.9% the loan is extortionate. For example, customers can buy an HP Envy 120 all-in-one printer from BrightHouse for £322.23, which will end up costing £520 by the time they have paid £5 a week over 104 weeks, whereas John Lewis has the same product for £149.99.

[Justin Tomlinson]

Obviously, I support the principles being expressed here. The key thing is that the vast majority of consumers would not be able to calculate the total cost with an APR—even Treasury Ministers would struggle to do that—which is why it is so incredibly important to have everything displayed in cash terms. That is the simplest form for any consumer, allowing them to make an informed decision.

Library Services

Debate between Yvonne Fovargue and Justin Tomlinson

Tuesday 25th January 2011 Westminster Hall

[Justin Tomlinson]

The obvious answer is that it is a challenge, not only for libraries but for any service. However, we are in the reality that we are—we have to tackle the public deficit. I do not want to get all political, but I think that any debate that we attend in Westminster Hall will show that all services face similar pressures. That is why libraries must look in particular at their corporate structures and at the fact that they are only spending 7.5% of their budget on book stock. It does not take a brain surgeon to realise that money is not being efficiently spent right across library services, so there is still a challenge ahead.

I was talking about the threat of closure to the Old Town library in Swindon. This is what we did. About 400 metres up the road, we had a relatively new and refurbished arts centre, called the Old Town arts centre, with a 200-seat theatre in wonderful condition. So we moved the Old Town library into the arts centre, and we transferred the core 18 hours of service that already existed in the old library, so that if people liked that traditional service they could go along to the arts centre in those core times. However, there was a much larger and more pleasant library environment at the arts centre. Also, because the arts centre was manned for 40 hours a week with box office staff, the self-service library machines could be left on and if anybody had a problem using them the box office staff could step in and say, “This is how you use this facility.” So the opening times for the library went from 18 to 40 hours. In addition, every time that there is an evening show at the arts centre, the theatregoers, if they are so inclined, can use the self-service machine, so sometimes we are looking at an extension of opening times from 18 hours to 60 hours.

Obviously, the usage of that library has increased—by 24%—and membership has increased by 193%. The arts centre café had kept opening and closing, because it did not have sufficient footfall in the daytime to make it viable, but it is now viable and the arts centre itself is now selling more tickets, because people come in to the library to take out a book of their choice, they see that the show that evening has not sold out and that it is their particular choice, and so they go and buy a ticket for it. It is an absolute win-win situation, and in these times of challenging costs the council has saved itself quite a lot of money, because it is paying for one building rather than two.

Furthermore, when we built the new Central library in Swindon we made sure that the opening hours were tied up with the footfall, which hon. Members have already discussed. Again, we ensured that there was a café environment at the heart of the library, so that people did not just pop in, grab their book and leave. Instead, people spend time using the café and the library as an enjoyable environment. We also created the library so that it could be opened in part, because I have seen some fantastic new flagship central libraries being opened across the country that have then proved to be simply too expensive to open for long hours. I went to one that had cost £15 million but it was only open for four hours on a Saturday in a town centre, which was dreadful. So, within the new Central library in Swindon an express zone has been built, so that at the non-peak times a chunk of the library can remain open, matching the available budget. Also, within the library there are areas for cultural events to take place, such as readings by authors and poets, and meetings involving different groups, because libraries should be a focal point for local communities.

To summarise now, I will talk about some of the opportunities for libraries. Many people have already mentioned volunteers, and they have an important role to play. It is right to say that volunteers cannot simply replace all traditional library staff. However, the best model is one where existing core library staff are transferred, so that those people who rely on an excellent library service in core hours can still go at those times. Nevertheless, we should not then lock the library doors for the rest of the week. We should empower local communities to take over the running of local libraries at those times.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that his view of libraries, where the librarians are actually in the library and simply giving out information and books, is rather narrow? I went to an excellent event run by local librarians for young children, where the librarians showed children books. The enthusiasm of those children and the professionalism of the library staff were unparalleled. Those children were then motivated by the visit of those librarians to go to their local libraries.

[Justin Tomlinson]

The hon. Lady must have spectacular mind-reading abilities, because that is my very next point. By empowering local librarians to run their local libraries and to participate in their local communities, libraries should be looking beyond their traditional facilities and urging their staff to go out into their local communities to encourage people, particularly young children, to embrace the wonderful services and facilities that are available in the libraries themselves. Part of that process involves reducing the corporate structure and trusting local librarians to understand their communities. We all represent very different communities with different challenges, and library services should be tailored on a localised library-by-library basis to suit local demands. So I agree 100% with the hon. Lady’s comments.

The final point about volunteers is that where there is no alternative but to close a library—I am not advocating the closure of libraries, but when there is a “last chance saloon” situation—there are examples of volunteers stepping in and local authorities should be willing, at the very least, to say, “We will hand you that facility.” A good example of that process in the South Swindon constituency is the Walcot library. The local council decided that it was no longer viable, in part because the Parks library, which was not too far down the road, had been refurbished on the back of section 106 money. However, the local community took over the Walcot library, and the library is now partly a charity shop, partly a community facility and partly a library, which is far better than having no library service at all.

I have already talked about extending self-service, both into non-core library buildings and within library buildings. I repeat that there is a need to refocus library budgets on book stock. The fact that only 7.5% of library budgets is currently being spent on book stock is simply unacceptable.

Moreover, as politicians we are always talking about empowering local people, but if we are going to empower local people we need to pass on local information and engage with local residents, and in turn local residents need to register their views. Where better to do all that than in a local community library? People can pop in, look at the notice board, see the latest grand scheme that elected politicians or communities have put forward and register their comments. There are many examples of such schemes. In my constituency, there is the “Connecting People, Connecting Places” scheme, which the council has introduced. Although the council is trying to push that scheme, it must understand that the best way to deliver it is through libraries.

Another point is that where there are facilities that are only open for eight or 10 hours, surely we should open them up to other community groups, whether they are youth clubs or different local organisations that can use the building in which the facilities are situated. The council has already paid the rent and the rates, and these days most bookshelves are on wheels. Consequently, if a youth club wants to attend a community facility in the evening, it does not take much to move the bookshelves to the edges of a room and the youth club can take on that facility and use it. It is a crying shame that local authorities and local council tax payers are paying for these wonderful buildings to be shut for the vast majority of the week.

My final point is that it is essential that local authorities do not sleepwalk into a situation where our much-loved libraries experience a steady and continual decline. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Minister, because he is a passionate advocate of libraries. We just need to convince all local authorities of all political parties that they need to make libraries a priority.