Francis Report

Debate between William Cash and Joan Walley

Wednesday 5th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)]

This debate, which is taking place 12 months after the publication of the Francis report, is long overdue and desperately needed.

[Mr Cash]

I endorse what the hon. Lady says. I think that I had to call 15 times for the report to be debated.

[Joan Walley]

I think that there has been an extraordinary degree of cross-party support from all Staffordshire MPs for efforts to get the matter on the agenda. When we look at the initial inquiry called by the Labour Government, its extension and then its translation into a full public inquiry by the current Government, and when we consider how quickly we as parliamentarians need to ensure that we hold the Government to account, we must recognise, as the hon. Gentleman says, that it has taken an extraordinary amount of time to get this debate.

At the heart of this debate is the need not only to discuss something that affects the whole country and Wales, as we heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), but to see what lessons the three inquiries have to teach us. One of the Francis report’s main recommendations is that it is also for Members of Parliament to question ourselves on how we hold our own trust boards to account. In a way, we need the ammunition to be able to do that. I know that the previous Member for Stafford genuinely tried to get answers on what was happening at the time from the then trust board, but those answers were not forthcoming.

[Joan Walley]

That encapsulates the problem of Members of Parliament trying to get to the bottom of what is happening but being denied the information. I think that the main thrust of the report is a call for transparency and openness, for freedom of information, so that we can get informed decisions being made at local trust board level on the future direction of policy. The issue is how that is constrained by the available finances. One regret is that the finances do not come into the Francis report to the extent they might. We know that at the local level those in charge of health services are trying to ensure that they deliver a service within the financial constraints.

[Mr Cash]

Does the hon. Lady accept that one great problem that beset the whole Stafford tragedy was the fact that it was integrally affected by a target-based culture? That was one of the main problems, which I hope we are now getting away from.

[Joan Walley]

It may surprise the hon. Gentleman to know that I agree with him, and that the target culture has a lot to answer for. We have moved on from that now, and we are looking at how to achieve the best possible health care within the available resources. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) said, it is important to have integration, cross-cutting services and collaboration. We must move on from the target culture to look at the best possible way to achieve high standards of service throughout the country and stand-alone services in localities.

I want to put on the record my concern that lives were destroyed and that many people and their families were severely affected by what happened as a result of the systemic failures in the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust, and specifically at Stafford hospital. There are many lessons to be learned, and we owe it to them to ensure that we move on and get the right hospital services.

For the record, may I say that at the time I supported the call for a public inquiry? I say that from these Benches.

Whatever the mechanism, the heart of the matter is that we must learn the lessons and move forward. It is right to debate the broader issues, values and culture of the NHS. We must recognise that an integral part of that is the procedures to deal with a failing hospital. As we assess progress on the implementation of the Francis report, it is vital to hold the Government to account for their handling of the parallel process—the trust special administrator’s report. It is essential for those of us in Staffordshire to have clarity from the Secretary of State—I am sorry he is not in his place—on future arrangements for health care in Stafford. That is what most concerns me and I shall concentrate my comments on that.

Reference has been made to how fit for purpose the trust special administration process is. Is it just about finances, or is it about the broader health care that should be provided? Changes are being introduced in the Care Bill, which will come to the House on Monday. The Government must address how stuck we are with the TSA and the TSA reports, and whether they are broad enough to deal with breakdown and failure in individual hospitals. Obtaining a resolution on how current hospital services in Staffordshire are being taken forward is urgent. That is part and parcel of how we take forward the lessons that the Francis report identified.

For me, the most important paragraph in the Francis report’s terms of reference is identifying

“the lessons to be drawn from that examination as to how in the future the NHS and the bodies which regulate it can ensure that failing and potentially failing hospitals or their services are identified as soon as is practicable”.

On the trust special administrators, we should aim to identify what needs to be done in advance of a hospital failing. In Staffordshire, we are stuck with a procedure. A report was carried out and sent to Monitor, and there was public consultation, which took place only in the Mid Staffordshire area. It is a great concern that when a hospital—in our case, the University Hospital of North Staffordshire—makes a proposal to rescue some of Mid Staffordshire’s services, there has been no corresponding consultation in that area about the impact of the changed configuration of health services in north Staffordshire. That is a real failing and the Government should take it on board.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Cash]

I am extremely glad that my right hon. Friend has made that point. The zero-harm policy is so important, and I am grateful for that specific intervention. It will make Ken Lownds’s day. I also pay tribute to people all over the country who have taken up the message and sought to improve the health service in their areas. This has turned into a national campaign, and the Secretary of State deserves great credit for the way he has helped to co-ordinate it.

I was, and remain, completely amazed that the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle, and Patricia Hewitt, were not even asked to give evidence to the inquiry. I still find that completely staggering to my way of thinking. I know that the right hon. Member for Leigh was asked to give evidence, and did, but I place the point on the record because I found it extraordinarily difficult to understand then, and I still do now.

I have constantly and repeatedly called for the resignation of Sir David Nicholson. I know he is retiring soon and that that resignation will not happen, but I repeat my concern, as I did in evidence to the inquiry, because the whole target-based policy was very much tied up with his approach to these matters. Indeed, in the last of, I think, about 600 paragraphs of his evidence to the inquiry, he referred in the last two lines to the fact that the Member of Parliament for Stone, Mr Bill Cash, had raised the question of his involvement in target-based policies. He said that there were arguments on both sides of the equation regarding target-based policies, but I do not agree with that. I do not think target-based policies were the right way to go, and I am glad that the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) agreed with me. As I pointed out in my evidence to the inquiry, such policies had a terrible effect on the attitude of Monitor regarding the financing issues that provided 39 of the 45 or so questions put by William Moyes to the foundation trust when it received its approbation—something it should never, ever, have got. I say to the right hon. Member for Leigh that through the mechanism of the Department—I cannot point precisely to chapter and verse—the fact that the foundation trust got such status was also the product of a misjudgment by the Government at the time.

I have already referred to correspondence in an intervention, but in the prime ministerial guidelines of 2005, under the previous Government, it was clearly stated that when Members of Parliament write to Secretaries of State and other senior Ministers, they are entitled to receive a full, comprehensive response—personally—from that Minister. I found that wanting during this process. I was glad to note, however, that in the course of evidence to the inquiry, the situation moved from what appeared to be resistance to going down that route, to an acceptance that—to paraphrase from the evidence given by the chief executive of the Department of Health—from now on, when a Member of Parliament writes with a letter from a constituent, and explains that things have not gone properly regarding that constituent’s health problems, there is a mechanism to ensure that the issue is dealt with properly. I will not have to go into all that today, because it has been rectified.

In my evidence, I also raised the issue of whistleblowing. I also tabled amendments to the then health legislation, calling for the repudiation of gagging clauses and providing that any chief executive who endorsed them and got his legal advisers to agree to them should be dismissed. That is another area that has been dealt with, so we are making progress. I very much endorse the views expressed on both sides of the House about having unity across the Floor of the House, as far as we can achieve it, on the central principles.

I agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford said about the issue, although I have a difference, not of opinion but of emphasis, because my constituency is very rural, and access to the artery of the M6 is not easy. It can be difficult to reach, especially at night, because it can be a long way through small rural lanes, to access the M6 and the University hospital of North Staffordshire or hospitals in Wolverhampton. That is my caveat on that.

We have made enormous progress. I am glad that the Mid Staffs foundation trust is being dissolved, and that—as my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford said—the Prime Minister, at a recent Prime Minister’s questions, backed plans, in as many words, for consultant-led maternity to continue at Stafford hospitals. That service, plus paediatric services, critical care and a 24-hour emergency service, is necessary for constituents in Stone and the rest of Staffordshire. I will work with my hon. Friend to ensure that that is delivered.

[Joan Walley]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there could be some inconsistency between those two conflicting things unless we get immediate clarity from the Government about the time scale in which they will be taken forward?

[Mr Cash]

That point will have been taken on board by the Secretary of State, who is in his place. One of the good things about the present Secretary of State is that he does listen. He takes things on board and follows them up. Some Secretaries of State do not always do that—they nod, but they do not necessarily do that.

[Joan Walley]

In that case, I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman would like to invite the Secretary of State to come to the Dispatch Box and tell us when the timing will be resolved, because we have this continuing uncertainty.

[Mr Cash]

I shall not engage in a vicarious ping-pong match with the hon. Lady. The point has been made and taken—I see that the Secretary of State is nodding—and I know that other people wish to speak, so I shall try to bring my remarks to a close.