High Speed 2: Electronic Deposit of Documents

William Cash Excerpts

Tuesday 11th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Michael Ellis)]

I beg to move,

That, in respect of any bill relating to High Speed 2 that is read the first time in Session 2017–19 and to which the standing orders relating to private business are found by the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills to apply, it shall be sufficient compliance with:

(a) any requirement under those standing orders for a document to be deposited or delivered at, or sent to, an office of a government department, body or person if it is deposited or delivered at, sent to or otherwise made accessible at that office in electronic form;

(b) any requirement under those standing orders for a document to be deposited with an officer if it is deposited with or delivered, sent or otherwise made accessible to that officer in electronic form;

(c) any requirement under those standing orders for a document to be made available for inspection at a prescribed office, or to permit a document to be inspected, if it is made available for inspection at that office, or is permitted to be inspected, in electronic form;

(d) the requirement under Standing Order 27(4) or 36(3) relating to private business to permit a person to make copies of a document or extracts from it, if there is provided to that person, on request and within a reasonable time, copies of so much of it as the person may reasonably require and such copies may, if the person so agrees, be provided in electronic form;

(e) the requirement under Standing Order 27(4) relating to private business for a memorial to be made on every document deposited under that Standing Order, if the memorial is made on a separate document;

(f) any requirement under Standing Order 4A(1), 27A(6) or 224A(8) relating to private business to make a document available for sale at prescribed offices, if it is made available for sale at an office in London.

That this Order shall not affect any requirement under those standing orders to deposit any document at, or deliver any document to, the Private Bill Office or the Vote Office.

That any reference in those standing orders to a document which is deposited, lodged, delivered or sent under those standing orders includes a reference to a document which is so deposited, delivered or sent in electronic form.

That any reference to a document in this order includes a reference to any bill, plan, section, book of reference, ordnance map, environmental or other statement or estimate.

The Gracious Speech gave notice of the Government’s intention to introduce a hybrid Bill to Parliament later this year to take forward the next phase of HS2. As a hybrid Bill it will be governed by the Standing Orders for private business. Parliament’s review of those Standing Orders, following the passage of the High Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Act 2017, has not yet concluded and is the first significant review since 1948. It is therefore necessary to move this motion to update parliamentary procedure to reflect developments in technology since 1948.

I will briefly explain the changes, which replicate those authorised by the House in 2013 ahead of the introduction of the previous hybrid Bill. The House will be aware that, along with the HS2 hybrid Bill later this year, we will provide Parliament with an environmental statement setting out the likely significant environmental effects of the scheme and making proposals for alleviating those effects.

A considerable level of detail is involved in a project of this magnitude. We expect the statement to be up to 12,000 pages long. It is, of course, important that local communities can easily find out what the impact will be on their local area. However, current Standing Orders require us to deposit a paper copy of the document in every local authority area along the line of route. In this day and age that is inconvenient for the communities involved, especially for parish councils, many of which do not have sufficient space, so they ask us to deliver the document elsewhere—often to a library in a nearby town. That is why the motion allows for the electronic deposit of documentation for the HS2 hybrid Bill.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

I seriously oppose the project, which runs straight through my constituency. Will the Minister be good enough to give an undertaking that written material of the kind he describes will be provided? I understand why it should be in electronic form.

[Michael Ellis]

It is a permissive power. It does not require documents to be deposited in electronic format only. If a deposit location wants all the documents in hard copy, HS2 Ltd will provide them in hard copy, but the motion allows for the electronic deposit of documentation for the HS2 hybrid Bill. Electronic documentation will, of course, make it easier for communities along the line of route to find the information most relevant to their area without having to work through an otherwise enormous document.

[Michael Ellis]

I do not accept my right hon. Friend’s characterisation. On previous occasions when there have been storage problems, nearby community libraries have been asked to store the hard copies, so I anticipate alternative mechanisms could be put in place.

It should be noted that this is a permissive power. It does not require documents to be deposited only in an electronic format, so if a location wants all the documents in hard copy, HS2 Ltd will provide them in hard copy. In all cases HS2 Ltd will make the key documents, such as the Bill itself and the non-technical summary of the environmental statement, available in hard copy.

Further, members of the public will be able to telephone HS2 Ltd to ask for free hard copies of the non-technical summary, the local community area report and the local maps. If a deposit location would like documents in electronic form but does not have the equipment to make them available to the community, HS2 Ltd will provide that equipment at its own expense.

This is a wholly sensible modernisation of Standing Order requirements that were originally conceived in the 19th century, and it is about making it easier for people to engage with the hybrid Bill process, thereby ensuring the most effective decision making by Parliament.

[Sir William Cash]

My hon. Friend has quietly referred to the maps, but of course there are also the specifications and the limits of deviation. He knows perfectly well how much all this involves. May I have an assurance that, if required, all those things will also be made available in hard copy?

[Michael Ellis]

Yes, that is a reasonable request.

This is a wholly sensible modernisation of Standing Order requirements, and it is about making it easier for people to engage with the hybrid Bill process. I commend this motion to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

The House will not be surprised that I rise to my feet to talk about this small motion, but colleagues sitting alongside me may be surprised to learn that I rise to welcome it. As a veteran of the hybrid Bill process, I can say that there is no doubt that it is arcane and has tremendous problems with its practices and procedures. My constituents, and many constituents of other hon. Members, certainly have been at the mercy of the hybrid Bill process, and I shudder when I hear a Front Bencher say that the environmental statement will be at least 12,000 pages long. I have experienced something just as large for phase 1 of the HS2 process, and I can say that these are indeed very opaque documents. Will the Deputy Leader of the House say whether these will be sufficiently navigable instruments, as this is being served up to people electronically? I found, as did many of my constituents, that the documents presented by HS2 Ltd were very difficult to navigate and hard to find. Therefore, I would like assurances that some improvements have been made to the way in which people can move around these very large documents.

The Deputy Leader of the House has already given assurances that nothing in tonight’s order will prevent communities from accessing paper copies. We must not forget that there is a digital divide. Many of the people affected by this project are elderly and do not access large documents easily on computers. It is very important that they have access, free of charge, to those sections of the documentation that relate to their properties or the area around that part of the route.

[Sir William Cash]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that when this material comes electronically and then has to be turned, at a person’s home or office, into the kind of material that makes sense and that they can read, the complexity of the documents—the design specifications and all the other things—and the monumental volume of paper becomes very daunting indeed? To refer back to our previous debate on consultation, does she also agree that HS2 Ltd, as I said to the project manager the other day, had better get its act together on consultation and do it properly?

[Mrs Gillan]

It is clear to me and many others who are involved with the project that HS2 Ltd needs to improve not only its consultation processes but its communications processes, which are still appalling in many instances.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

I have already made a couple of interventions, but I wish to say that I am extremely grateful to my very distinguished and right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) for all the work that she has done on phase 1, which has set a pattern for what is to be done on the second phase, which so directly and detrimentally affects my own constituency. Before the Minister replies, may I make one suggestion? Birmingham has been mentioned. If we take the line between Birmingham and Crewe, the most central place happens to be Stafford in Staffordshire. Will my hon. Friend be good enough to give serious consideration to using the county council facilities, which are extremely good, for copying and all that sort of thing? People from my constituency, at both ends of the line, would be able to visit that central point with a minimum amount of inconvenience. That is all that I need to say for the time being.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Ellis]

It is fair to say that all reasonable requests will be considered. It is clear and transparent that reasonable requests will be met. It is important that requests are not vexatious, and I know that my right hon. Friend does not want any doubt about that. Reasonable requests will be met, and further consideration can be given to that in due course. This is a sensible modernisation of 19th-century Standing Orders, which have not undergone radical reform since 1948.

[Sir William Cash]

I know that a lot of questions were put to the Minister, but would he respond to the question of whether Stafford and Staffordshire County Council buildings are a convenient place for people to go for documents?

[Michael Ellis]

My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is alive to all the issues that have been raised, including the localities and local communities involved. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) asked whether Staffordshire would be considered, and I can tell him that it will be.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered,

That, in respect of any bill relating to High Speed 2 that is read the first time in Session 2017–19 and to which the standing orders relating to private business are found by the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills to apply, it shall be sufficient compliance with:

(a) any requirement under those standing orders for a document to be deposited or delivered at, or sent to, an office of a government department, body or person if it is deposited or delivered at, sent to or otherwise made accessible at that office in electronic form;

(b) any requirement under those standing orders for a document to be deposited with an officer if it is deposited with or delivered, sent or otherwise made accessible to that officer in electronic form;

(c) any requirement under those standing orders for a document to be made available for inspection at a prescribed office, or to permit a document to be inspected, if it is made available for inspection at that office, or is permitted to be inspected, in electronic form;

(d) the requirement under Standing Order 27(4) or 36(3) relating to private business to permit a person to make copies of a document or extracts from it, if there is provided to that person, on request and within a reasonable time, copies of so much of it as the person may reasonably require and such copies may, if the person so agrees, be provided in electronic form;

(e) the requirement under Standing Order 27(4) relating to private business for a memorial to be made on every document deposited under that Standing Order, if the memorial is made on a separate document;

(f) any requirement under Standing Order 4A(1), 27A(6) or 224A(8) relating to private business to make a document available for sale at prescribed offices, if it is made available for sale at an office in London.

That this Order shall not affect any requirement under those standing orders to deposit any document at, or deliver any document to, the Private Bill Office or the Vote Office.

That any reference in those standing orders to a document which is deposited, lodged, delivered or sent under those standing orders includes a reference to a document which is so deposited, delivered or sent in electronic form.

That any reference to a document in this order includes a reference to any bill, plan, section, book of reference, ordnance map, environmental or other statement or estimate.