National Insurance Contributions (Increase of Thresholds) Bill

Debate between Wera Hobhouse and Richard Drax

2nd reading
Thursday 24th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Richard Drax]

I agree to the extent that I do not like any tax. However, if there is a note saying that “there is no money” left, that puts a Government in a slightly difficult position, because they need some money to run the country and the public sector, which we all hold so dear.

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

If the hon. Member does not like any tax, and given that we have heard that VAT has been raised to high levels, does he support the Liberal Democrats’ call to cut VAT by 2.5% to 17.5%? That would make a big difference to people’s disposable income. They would spend it in the high streets and it would do exactly what he proposes.

[Richard Drax]

In an ideal world, I would like to scrap VAT—[Interruption.] I would love to scrap it altogether. It is extraordinary that we ask someone to do something, creating all this work and getting the economy going, and people are taxed to do it. But there again, as I have explained, the Government are in a predicament because of the pandemic and a war—situations that are way out of their control—and I know that they are trying to do their best with the very difficult cards in their hand.

In the Chancellor’s statement yesterday, I did not hear the good Conservative word “savings”—that is what I call it, but the Opposition call it “cuts”. We appear to acquiesce to every demand for more money. This is taxpayers’ money and it is surely time to review the big spenders, such as the NHS and welfare. They are, of course, both needed, but it is time to review both to make sure that we are getting value for money.

The national insurance rise, which I disagree with, will see billions of pounds disappearing into a black hole, followed soon afterwards by demands for more. For the sake of the public finances, I do not believe that this can go on. I welcome the Chancellor’s talk of more tax cuts to come, but in my humble opinion, and certainly for my constituents, for the reasons that I have stated, those cuts will come too late.

The Opposition are already drooling with pleasure as they watch us behave like the big spender that they would so love to be. That puts our raison d’être at risk. Capitalism is always challenged by socialism, which, as far as I know, has never succeeded wherever it has been adopted, but that does not stop them from trying it on. Today, in tough times, we need to fight for and explain far better our economic philosophy, for if we do not, there is a real risk of a high-spending, high-taxing Conservative Government handing over the country to those who would bring it to its knees, ruthlessly raiding the accounts of those who aspire, work hard and already pay their fair share.

I would be neglectful if I did not mention money for our armed forces. I know that that is not directly linked to national insurance, but it was raised in the statement yesterday. As a former soldier, I urge those on the Front Bench to spend more of our money on our armed forces. If the awful behaviour by Russia has not alerted us to that, I do not know what will. This is all about priorities; that is what we as a Government have to decide. As I hinted, I think there should be far more study and review to ensure that the money is better spent in various areas. Let us face it: the defence of our country and all those who depend on her is the Government’s top priority.

Let me end where I started, with freedom. High taxes are not the accepted norm for the Conservative party. For us, it is all about freedom—freedom from the state, freedom from high taxes and freedom for the people to choose how their money is best spent.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Wera Hobhouse and Richard Drax

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 11th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

“Democracy” and “the will of the people” are terms often used and—dare I say it—abused in connection with leaving the European Union. I have been listening to this debate for many hours now, and I am puzzled by the arguments of those who support the Bill’s progress. As has already been said this afternoon, we are here to debate not whether we leave the EU but how we do it. Over the past two days of debate, it has been eloquently proven by Members from both sides of the House that what is in front of us is deeply flawed, because it threatens to write into law a substantial loss of our parliamentary democracy and set an alarming precedent. It is therefore frustrating to be accused of undermining the will of the people if I do not support the Bill’s progress. I will not support the Bill, because it threatens a fundamental principle of British democracy—the supremacy of Parliament and the division of powers—and gives sweeping powers to Minsters and bureaucrats. The right to make laws in this country was given to Parliament after many hard-fought battles.

[Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Wera Hobhouse]

Will the hon. Gentleman hear me out?

The supremacy of Parliament is a proud tradition that all of us should defend. I find it perplexing that, for example, the hon. Members for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) and for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer), both of whom I know to be thinking people, are so eager to see us leave the EU that they forget everything else in its path. Democracy matters, and whoever tries to suspend democracy to enact the will of the people should think again.

The will of the people is of course a pretty mixed bag and is not fixed forever. On 23 June last year, almost 70% of my constituents voted to remain in the EU. In June this year, I was elected on the basis of my opposition to the Government’s Brexit line. That was the will of the people in my constituency at that point. True to form, Bath had one of the highest voter turnouts, and active engagement in Bath is not limited to election time; it is evident every day. Protest groups, demonstrations and lively debates are testament to how much people in Bath care about how our country is run. Another principle of democracy that they want to see practised is that I can speak on their behalf about their concerns about when and how we leave the EU without being labelled as a remoaner, a reverser, unpatriotic or undemocratic. Democracy is about the right to debate freely and voice an opinion without being labelled or bullied. If we truly want to achieve the best for our country, we need to be able to discuss all outcomes freely, including that people—leavers or remainers—can change their mind.

The Bill adds another level of madness to the Brexit process, betraying not only those who voted remain, but those who chose to leave. One of the leave campaign’s strongest arguments was about taking back control here in Westminster, but instead of giving control back to this Parliament, which the leave campaign championed, the Bill is a power grab by Ministers. One of my constituents said to me:

“When people voted to leave the European Union, they didn’t vote to swap backroom deals in Brussels for more of the same in Whitehall. They voted for Parliament and the British people to have more of a say.”

As the MP for Bath, I will fight this attack on our democracy. I will not sit idly by as this Government try to erode our rights and change our laws behind closed doors. How can anybody support this Bill? My only conclusion is that those who support it want their version of Brexit at any cost, including democracy. Come on, let us stand up for democracy and stop this flawed Bill in its tracks. I dare say that the will of the people will be right behind us.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wera Hobhouse]

rose—

[Richard Drax]

No, I will not give way—absolutely not! I do not have time and I am enjoying myself. I am representing my constituents and my country. I am speaking up, at last, for Great Britain, and not for a bureaucracy that is going horribly wrong. The great thing is that when the Bill returns to the House, we can scrutinise it—we can do our job. That is what we are here for.

The Scottish National party wants independence and to rejoin the EU. The EU would nail Scotland to the floor if ever it got the so-called independence that the SNP desires. SNP Members would rue the day, as they headed to economic ruin, trapped in the euro—if indeed the EU let Scotland have it.

The Bill is good for our country. Ministers have not got it all right; I would be the first to concede that, and I am sure they would concede it, too. It can be debated and changed in Committee—of that I am certain—but a vote against the Bill tonight is a cynical ploy that our constituents, who sent us to the House, will not accept. I shall vote with the Government.