European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Wayne David and Andrew Love

Monday 10th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David]

I am afraid that I do not share that confidence. If that course of events took place, it would be a massive step into the unknown. Nobody could say with any definiteness what would happen. Indeed, the converse of what my hon. Friend says could also be true, and there would be greater economic difficulties. It is therefore important to recognise the size of the single market and of the eurozone, and to recognise that much of our trade is dependent on the success of the eurozone.

[Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)]

Contrary to what a number of previous speakers have said, the UK currency has devalued by around 20% over the last two years, yet we have had little or no benefit from our trade with the eurozone area, because of the instability. Would not passing this Bill lead to greater stability and a net benefit for the British economy?

[Wayne David]

The likelihood is that that would indeed be case. I am not one of those who subscribes to the Government’s recent mantra that all the problems in the United Kingdom are due to the eurozone. However, it is undoubtedly a fact that for this country eventually to increase its economic prosperity with enlightened policies, we need a successful market in the eurozone that will draw in the products we make.

I could cite numerous examples from economists, but I will focus on important examples from my constituency of Caerphilly, which is still a manufacturing constituency, although it has taken a pounding in recent years. Much of its manufacturing is dependent on exports to the eurozone. I do not suggest for one moment that my constituents are enthusiasts about the eurozone, or indeed about the European Union, but I recognise, in purely bread-and-butter terms, that a stable and prosperous eurozone is in their best interests. Ultimately, their jobs depend on the products they make being exported to the eurozone and being bought there.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Love]

rose—

[Wayne David]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Wayne David]

I strongly support the new clause. We need to be frank and recognise that this Bill represents a new departure. Inevitably, therefore, we cannot assume that every dot and comma in the European stability mechanism will be absolutely correct, or that there will be no scope for change in the future. There might well be change, and who can tell, in this fast-moving situation, what the demands of the immediate future will be? It is therefore entirely sensible to call for full, comprehensive reports to be provided to the House on an annual basis.

[Mr Love]

Does my hon. Friend believe that the plea that we have just heard from the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) was a signal that he does not want another row between the coalition partners?

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend could well be right. Who knows? I would not be entirely surprised if that were the case. However, it is important that we rise above any internecine squabbles.

We are concerned about the well-being of the country, which is why it is important to conduct comprehensive reviews and to debate them on the Floor of the House. As was pointed out earlier, much of the legislation is of a technical—almost esoteric—nature, and the reports will need to go into some detail. It will therefore be insufficient simply to present them on the Floor of the House. They should also be debated by the European Scrutiny Committee, which is well led by the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash). Surprisingly, he is not in the Chamber. This must be the first time in a long time that he has missed a European Union debate. I hope to goodness that he is not ill.

[Mr Love]

For what is probably the first time, I agree with the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), in that he insists that the House should do more to scrutinise European matters. Does not my hon. Friend agree that the new clause presents an ideal mechanism for so doing?

[Wayne David]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend.

This is an important matter, and it should be debated not only on the Floor of the House but by the European Scrutiny Committee. We should also encourage other Select Committees—the Treasury Committee in particular —to debate these issues. It is one of the weaknesses of the House that, all too often, we tend to put European issues into a neat compartment without fully appreciating the fact that they are cross-cutting, cross-departmental and cross-Committee in nature. If we are fully to appreciate their impact, and the need for them to be changed, we need to discuss them in a number of different Committees.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wayne David]

I do not want to labour this point. I welcome the Liberal Democrats’ desire for more transparency and scrutiny, but experience shows that, all too often, those words come to nothing unless there is a focus on something. The importance of the new clauses is that they would provide that “something” for the debate to focus on. Nothing concentrates the mind better than a report that has a distinct niche in the parliamentary calendar to enable that debate to take place.

[Mr Love]

This is not just a matter of having a focus for the debate. It is also a question of the sheer importance of these aspects of the European Union. Their influence on the eurozone and the British economy make it imperative that we hold such discussions.

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. We would not be holding a debate for the sake of it, and we are not talking about transparency for the sake of it. We are trying to underline the importance of the ESM, which is being developed for the first time. It is imperative that we have an ongoing debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Love]

Is that not recognised by the European authorities, particularly the European Central Bank, in moving part of the way to becoming a lender of last resort, which might be necessary if the eurozone is to be held together?

[Wayne David]

Yes, that is an important point, and the role of the ECB is central. Many of us would like to see it being more proactive far sooner than it has been in the past, but its more assertive role could be critical in the future.

Another concern is the circularity of having the facility guaranteed by the same group of countries that might draw on the fund. For example, we all know that Italy’s situation could become difficult, yet Italy is a country that is, at the same time, ensuring that resources are going into the fund that it might itself be required to draw on. That strange relationship and potential incompatibility at the heart of the ESM needs to be thought about carefully. What is important is what is being established here and now. Nevertheless, as situations develop, it becomes all the more important to review the circumstances.

The credit rating of the ESM is another issue. We all know that certain countries, including a number of eurozone countries, have been downgraded in the not-too-distant past. That includes France, which came as a big surprise to many people. The EFSF has been downgraded, too, and we must be sure that that does not develop further with respect to the ESM.

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend could well be right, and I hope that he is, but it is an issue that needs to be rationalised and thought through carefully. My feeling is that, at this stage of the ESM’s development, it has not been given serious thought. It may be necessary and desirable, but it must, as I say, be thought through carefully. It must not happen by accident, but by proper design. The fact that it is not in the design of the programme at the moment provides all the more reason to ensure that we have a proper review and some time for the objective to be explicitly stated.

My last point is about private sector involvement. It is assumed that we are talking about public money, which to a large extent we are, but there is also a role for private sector involvement, which will be done in accordance with good practice as established by the International Monetary Fund. That is welcome, but, again, it needs to be monitored carefully. If we need to enhance our programme or provide more stipulations, those things must be done.

[Mr Love]

Is not the International Monetary Fund a very good example of private sector involvement? No one has ever lost any money as a result of investing in the IMF, and if we follow prudent principles, the same should apply to the ESM.

[Wayne David]

I agree that the IMF is an example of good practice, and I think it laudable that the ESM is basing much of its operation on the way in which it has operated, successfully, for a number of years. Don’t get me wrong: I am not against private sector involvement—quite the opposite—but I think that clear terms of reference need to be established and monitored.

For that reason, and for all the other reasons that I have given, I think that both new clauses are eminently sensible. I think they will enhance both parliamentary democracy and the role of this Parliament. I also think that, ultimately, they will send our partners in Europe the extremely positive message that we are serious not only about establishing the ESM, but about ensuring that it works effectively well into the future.

Electoral Registration and Administration Bill

Debate between Wayne David and Andrew Love

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David]

Yes, my colleague makes a very astute point borne out of his own experience. All of us who have been involved in democratic politics for a number of years can testify to that. The standard of EROs’ work varies enormously, so we need to ensure that everything possible is done to secure higher standards to reinforce the democratic process. Giving the Electoral Commission a key role and a key power in this respect will be important both for building up confidence and for ensuring that the system is as effective as possible.

[Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is it not the case that the Electoral Commission already has the right to evaluate how well electoral registration officers are carrying out their duties, but that it is not allowed as of today to intervene where poor practice is standard? The amendment would deal with that problem and give the Electoral Commission the opportunity to put right what it can see is going very wrong.

[Wayne David]

That is indeed correct. We have expressed on a number of occasions in Committee our worry that the Government do not recognise the important role that the Electoral Commission must have in a number of important respects. There is a weakness in the legislation as drafted, particularly regarding the role of EROs. This amendment is designed to plug that gap and make sure that the absolutely central role that the Electoral Commission has to play is built directly into the Bill, particularly in respect of the standards we believe it necessary for EROs to achieve in the furtherance of their duties.

Electoral Registration and Administration Bill

Debate between Wayne David and Andrew Love

Monday 18th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr David]

I agree that there is concern that many groups in our society—so-called hard-to-reach groups, for example—might be excluded from the electoral register. A more reasonable time scale for the completion of the new electoral register would certainly give opportunities to many of the people mentioned by my right hon. Friend to be included on the register. One of the noticeable aspects during the long, pre-legislative consultation—I pay tribute to the Government for that—is that a high proportion of those who have participated and made concrete suggestions and proposals are from the groups mentioned by my right hon. Friend. It is vital that their voices are listened to carefully during this crucial stage of the Bill’s passage.

[Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is not the real concern that, while we used to think that 2 million people were missing from the register, recent research by the Electoral Commission shows that the figure is almost certainly double that? Moreover, if we consider the Northern Ireland example, it would appear that a further 15% of people may fall off the register. How far will we allow registration to drop before action is taken?

[Mr David]

My hon. Friend is correct. It is vital that various steps are taken to ensure that as many people as possible are on the register. I would not belabour the comparison with Northern Ireland, which is very different. However, individual electoral registration was introduced there and the evidence shows, as has been confirmed again by the Government, that when the new register was introduced a lamentably low number of the potential electors—the entitled electors—were actually on it. That reinforces our concern about what the situation will be in December 2015 if we proceed according to the time scale indicated in the Bill. That is why we have tabled the amendments. We hope that the Minister will feel able to respond positively to our concerns.