European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town

Monday 18th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I believe the House now wishes to hear from the Front Bench.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, we heard a sad story from the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, about the saga that has gone on. I say to the noble Lord, Lord True, who said that this was about playing parliamentary games, that no, this is much more serious. If anyone wants to know how big the issue in front of us today is, they should look around the Chamber.

Last week we heard, around the debate in the Commons, that the Prime Minister had conceded that within seven days of the Government agreeing a withdrawal deal with Brussels, a Motion to approve the deal would go to the Commons; and, should there be no withdrawal deal by 30 November, the Government would have to seek approval for their next course of action from MPs—not direction, approval.

We then learned that the various Conservative Back-Bench MPs who were concerned were given to understand that Mrs May would consider how to capture those demands and table the necessary amendment here in your Lordships’ House today. Instead, in the Government’s Motion F1, we have no proposal for a vote on the Brexit deal but simply a vote on a Motion—in neutral terms, I understand from my parliamentary draftsmen advisers that this is not a term that exists anywhere else in law, but be that as it may—that the statement on the deal has been considered. There would be no seven-day commitment or any other time commitment to a vote, no indication of what would happen should the Commons reject the Motion, and no indication that the Commons would have any say over what should follow if there is no deal.

Astonishingly, government Motion F1 gives the elected House of Commons less of a say than the European Parliament will have on the deal. Under Article 50, the European Parliament has to give its consent to the negotiated deal; that is, not just a Motion to say that it has considered the deal—rather, it has to give consent. We want what the European Parliament has: a meaningful vote. I do not know which part of the word “meaningful” the Government do not understand. I am a bit simple-minded because I think it means something that means something; in other words, something happens as a result.

What we want today is really quite straightforward. We want the House of Commons to be able to consider the Hailsham amendment, so we need to pass it today. Moreover, we should pass it without the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord True, as the whole point is to send to the Commons the agreement which Dominic Grieve and others thought they had reached with the Prime Minister. We have not tried to tinker with or improve it, but to place absolutely our support behind the Hailsham amendment which encompasses what they thought they were being offered. That is what this represents and is what we had expected from the Government. So we will not support Motion F4 if it is pushed to a vote.

Let me briefly put to rest the idea that the Hailsham amendment could risk what the Prime Minister and David Davis—perhaps quite rightly, along with the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, today—say they do not want, which is to hamper the negotiations. The whole point is that the vote would come at the end of the process, after the negotiations, to vote on the outcome. It is exactly the same as what the European Parliament’s vote to consent will be: it will be on the final—albeit at that point unsigned—deal.

Perhaps I may also put to rest a misunderstanding that we have heard from Jacob Rees-Mogg—he is meant to be an expert, but never mind. He asserts that Parliament will get its vote on the deal by agreeing or not agreeing to the withdrawal and implementation Bill, which he claims is the device for bringing the treaty into our law. This is fundamentally to misunderstand both that Bill and the deal. Under Article 50, the withdrawal agreement must also take account of the framework of the future relationship between the parties. However, that will not be included in the implementation Bill because it will cover only citizens’ rights, possible payments, Northern Ireland and the transitional arrangements. In other words, the withdrawal and implementation Bill is the divorce proceedings—it is not the long-term relationship. That Bill will not be the confirmation of the withdrawal agreement and is not a substitute for what we are asking for today. Unless and until this Bill guarantees a proper vote on the deal, the long-term future of this country will remain solely in the hands of the Prime Minister and her extremely divided Cabinet, not in the hands of Parliament.

Without the amendment in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, we will be in a position where the European Parliament has to give its consent—that is, to approve the deal for it to take effect. However, the British Parliament would simply be able to pass a Motion that it had considered the deal. What sort of democratic deficit does that leave this Mother of Parliaments with?

This is an area where I am sure that even the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, would agree with me. We agree on very little, although I have to say that every time I see him in his place, I feel the need to sharpen my arguments because I know that he is watching me. I hope that this is not the last time we hear from him, but I think that the one point he would agree with me on is that this Mother of Parliaments should get a sovereign vote on this issue.

The Government have offered us an unamendable Motion on a statement, but no say on the deal itself. As has been made clear, we need the House of Commons to have a say on the Hailsham amendment; it needs to have that in place. However, the only way we can do that is for this House to be able to give MPs that opportunity by passing this amendment. It is then up to them what they do with it.

Product Recall: Tumble Driers

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town

Wednesday 18th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord is not quite correct because following that review, which was well received, a working group was set up and already some of the recommendations have been enacted: the tasking of the BSI has created a new code of practice; we are bringing manufacturers together to support a better sharing of data on faults; and we are applying behavioural insights to increase the impact and effectiveness of product safety messages.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, 70 deaths happen a year from electricity, but of course there are even more when there is a fire. We know that the Grenfell Tower fire was started by a Hotpoint fridge freezer. It is no good waiting for a website on which consumers have to go to find whether their machine is faulty. We have to have mandatory recall where there are dangerous, faulty goods. The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, was of course the Minister who put through the Bill, my amendment to which led to this inquiry, but nothing has happened. If we do not want another fire I suggest the Government make it mandatory.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Baroness will know that this is a matter primarily for trading standards. It is left to it to decide what sanctions and actions should be taken. In the case of the awful Grenfell Tower fire, much work continues to be done to ascertain exactly what happened. She is right that it was a Hotpoint fridge freezer. There is no evidence so far or grounds for concluding that there is a safety problem with this model, but investigations are continuing.