Viscount Younger of Leckie
Main Page: Viscount Younger of Leckie (Conservative - Excepted Hereditary)Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill
Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)
My Lords, there is really not a lot to say at this stage. We support the purposes of the Bill. Obviously, it is not meant to be a contentious Bill, but the interesting thing is the fine line that it draws between chasing people who have made honest mistakes and those who enter into fraud. As with income tax—if we still use the old words from my accountancy days—the difference between evasion and avoidance is sometimes a very thin line. We will explore where you draw that line in terms of how you chase people for mistakes that have been made, perhaps on purpose or perhaps in error. We look forward to the progress of the Bill to see where those lines are drawn.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, I shall speak briefly as the other opposition Front-Bencher working on the Bill. I shall make a few introductory remarks on the purpose of the Bill as we begin Committee. I join my noble friend Lady Finn in welcoming this opportunity to have a productive, collaborative opening discussion on what the Bill is actually about and what it should be about.
Public sector fraud, as we have debated, is a crime that hurts every taxpayer in the country. It hurts every public service user and is an insult to everyone who works hard, pays their taxes and contributes to our society. This is a problem that we need to take steps to address, and the Government are right to reintroduce legislation and restart the process, which I know both Ministers acknowledge was started under the previous Government.
As noble Lords will be aware, my main focus will be on the second part of the Bill, which covers the DWP. This will not be covered so much in the amendments under discussion today, although I want to take the opportunity at the outset to flag up in advance and highlight some of the concerns that I have around these provisions and where my focus will be in the forthcoming Committee days. I hope this is helpful to the Committee.
First, on banks, there are still many questions over how the relationship between the DWP and the banks will manifest itself. We do not have clarity from the Government over how the process will work in practical terms or the costs that will be incurred by the DWP and financial institutions as a result of compliance under the terms of the Bill. As we highlighted at Second Reading, the Government, if they remain committed to human oversight of all decisions and reviews of information obtained from banks, could see a massive increase in their workload. Gaining greater clarity on this relationship, how it will work, the impact that it is anticipated to have and the resources required will form part of our approach on this part of the Bill.
Linked to this is the need to test the means to the end. What will be the cost for the expected return? How will the return be defined? That is the identity and recovery of fraud; also, the measurement of the deterrent factor in taking greater and more stringent measures to combat fraud—to take the challenge to the fraudsters, who have been seen to become ever more sophisticated. We will wish to challenge enforcement. What works? What are the sanctions for those who are convicted? Are they effective? What costs and resources are judged to be estimated in respect of this aspect of the Bill?
Secondly, we want to ensure that the Bill protects vulnerable people and recognises additional factors that may lie behind, for example, an overpayment. Proportionality in the exercise of these powers is vital, and we need to ensure that we do not cause greater harm than good in the pursuit of our shared objective. This concern is shared by noble Lords in this Committee. I am hopeful that we can reach an understanding with amendments that protect vulnerable people.
Finally, we see the Bill as an opportunity to combat those who seek to share information, allowing people to defraud the benefits and welfare system—the so-called “sickfluencers”. This is a serious problem. Thousands of people every day are consuming content that informs them of how to play examiners and score certain points based not on their actual health condition but on a script they have been taught online. These assessments are the mechanism through which the state determines eligibility for welfare payments. “Sickfluencers” who actively encourage dishonesty and make money out of a dishonest gaming system for exploitation must be stopped. We shall support amendments that seek to make this an explicit offence, so that there can be no room for doubt that these actions are wrong and could be criminal.
This is an important discussion on a topic that deeply affects everyone in our country. I welcome the opportunity to discuss ideas and suggestions for improvements to the Bill, which attempts to achieve a noble task. I and my noble friend Lady Finn will work in good faith with the Government and noble Lords across the Committee to improve the Bill and to make it effective and responsible.
Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent) (Lab)
My Lords, and so we begin. I thank all noble Lords present for their participation and engagement. On a personal note, before we get to the substance and serious detail of the Bill, this time last week I was having my make-up done for getting married, so I welcome noble Lords joining me on my honeymoon in our Palace.
Moving on to the substance, I remind your Lordships why we are here today. Fraud against the public sector takes money away from vital public services, enriches those who seek to attack the Government and damages the integrity of the state. This Government said clearly in our manifesto that we will not tolerate fraud or waste anywhere and that we will safeguard taxpayers’ money. This Bill is part of those efforts. This is a Government focused on delivery. The Bill makes provisions
“about the prevention of fraud against public authorities and the making of erroneous payments by public authorities; about the recovery of money paid by public authorities as a result of fraud or error; and for connected purposes”.
This is already in the Bill’s title. There is no need for an additional new clause at the start of the Bill to set out a purpose that reiterates this, albeit in different language.
It is important for your Lordships to understand the real impact of fraud against the public sector. This is a dry term for something profoundly impactful. It is not government or state that is the ultimate victim of such fraud. It is not the Chancellor’s pocket that is picked, although the Treasury bears the brunt of at least £55 billion of fraud and error each year. The real victim is the British people. Every taxpayer who pays their fair share pays a fraud premium, because fraudsters cheat the system and skim from the top. It is taxpayers who are the victims. Every citizen who uses public services, knows how much good every penny can be put to in the communities in which we all live and rightly expects that the money will go to support their community is being defrauded. It is our citizens who are the victims.
Everyone who is in need, and who relies on the benefits and welfare systems that others cynically abuse, is a victim of public sector fraud. Noble Lords across your Lordships’ Committee will share my contempt for fraudsters who attack the British people in this way, and will want to take decisive action to start putting things right.
Lord Maude of Horsham (Con)
My Lords, I apologise for not having been present for the Second Reading debate on this Bill—it is a subject rather dear to my heart—and for not being here at the beginning of this Committee’s proceedings this afternoon. In both cases, I had unmoveable previous commitments. I rise to express broad support for the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. She is absolutely right when she says that the Cabinet Office is the right place for a channel of this nature to be located. In later amendments, I will address concerns that the central public fraud authority needs to be empowered to intervene with other departments and be more strongly set up for that purpose. In the context of whistleblowing, I doubt whether it is essential to have this set out in the statute because there is nothing to stop the Cabinet Office setting up such a channel now, but it is an opportunity to ventilate the issue, which we should welcome.
Back when I was the Minister for the Cabinet Office, we were trying to simplify the way procurement was done because one of the unforeseen consequences of having absurdly overbureaucratic and overcomplicated procurement practices was that fraud became easier. When we were trying to simplify how procurements were done, we set up something we called, rather misleadingly, the mystery shopper channel. If bidders or suppliers saw, anywhere in the public sector, a procurement that was being done in the old-fashioned way—excessively prescriptive, rigid and expensive for bidders—they could let us know anonymously. They could tip us off, and the Cabinet Office was then in a position to intervene and draw attention to this—often because it was being done at a relatively junior level, without senior people being aware. So I know from experience that a channel of this nature can be very powerful, and many suppliers are immensely appreciative of the value it created for them. I support the approach that the noble Baroness has taken, and I hope the Minister will take that away.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for raising whistle- blowers in respect of the Bill and for highlighting the importance of the protection of those who feel that they must speak out if they see an action or actions that they feel could be fraudulent or not in the public interest. Indeed, it could be actions that should be being taken but are not.
Ensuring that we have adequate protections for whistleblowers is vital to building confidence with the people we need to come forward if we are to tackle fraud. In respect of public sector fraud, such people are employed in local authorities or in the Civil Service. If certain protections are not in place, this can have a detrimental effect on recruitment, retention and perhaps career management.
In tackling fraud, we will inevitably ask—and, in fact, trust and expect—public officials to make the right calls and decisions in their day-to-day work. These decisions can often be incredibly tough, involving sensitive matters and perhaps involving close colleagues. So reassuring public sector workers that they will be protected when they do the right thing is of paramount importance, and we would support further reassurance from the Government that whistleblowers will be protected and supported when they come forward.
Amendment 3, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, presents a sensible proposal for the creation of a whistleblowing reporting channel that would guarantee anonymity and protect whistleblowers, who would themselves be legally defined. The noble Baroness might like to explain in her summing up, however, what she means by
“a process to update whistleblowers in cases of fraud”.
How would she see this work?
On her Amendment 66, we do not think it necessary to establish an office of the whistleblower, although I understand that, as she said, this is very much a probing amendment. It sounds laudable, with laudable aims, but we see this as potential overregulation—the setting up of another body, at an unknown cost and with an unknown number of employees and resources—when we believe that what we need is a proportionate and workable system, as the noble Baroness herself has said in her Amendment 3, and an established process by which fraud is able to be reported with protections in place.
There is a danger that if you set up a body such as a specific office for whistleblowing, you can perhaps unwittingly encourage too many false flags, where whistleblowing is almost encouraged and a bureaucracy is created. It is important that evidence of whistleblowing is protected only where it is substantive and where there are protections in place—not flimsy or based on hearsay, for example. Of course, wrongful reporting can have a devastating effect on people’s lives.
These are really questions for the Government to answer, because the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and I share the same objective: pushing and encouraging the Government, in the Bill, to demonstrate practically what actual new protections there are for those who see or perceive fraud in their area of public sector work, bearing in mind that fraudsters can be cunning and clever. It often surprises one who is ultimately seen to commit fraud—it is often in an unexpected area or from people you would never suspect of committing fraud.
I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, that it is good to make comparisons with other whistleblowing processes, which she did with a deal of eloquence. I want to make a comparison with the NHS, as I understand that the NHS has upgraded its protections for whistleblowers. Thus Health Education England is listed as a prescribed person under the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998, which was referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. That means that workers at other organisations or companies who wish to raise concerns—in other words, whistleblowing—relating to the education, training and sufficient supply of healthcare workers at their employing organisation or company can do so to HEE. Prescribed persons enable workers to make public-interest disclosures to an independent body where the worker would prefer not to disclose to their employer direct, and the body may be able to take action on the disclosure.
We know that whistleblowing is the term used when a worker provides information to their employer or a prescribed person relating to wrongdoing. The wrongdoing will usually, though not always, relate to something that they have witnessed at work. This is also known as disclosure, which was raised by the noble Baroness as well. To be protected by whistleblowing law, a disclosure must be a qualifying disclosure. That means that the worker making the disclosure believes that doing so is in the public interest and it relates to one of the following categories, which I suspect the Committee will be aware of: criminal offence, breach of a legal obligation, miscarriage of justice, endangering health and safety, damage to the environment and covering up wrongdoing in any of those categories.
Workers have the right not to be subjected to any detriment as a consequence of making a disclosure. To qualify for protection when making a disclosure to a prescribed person, workers must have a reasonable belief that the matter falls within the prescribed persons remit and that the information disclosed is substantially true. Meeting these criteria is referred to as making a protected disclosure. Workers are encouraged to seek independent advice to help consider whether they might meet the criteria for making a protected disclosure. As the Committee may know, that can be obtained from Public Concern at Work or Speak Up or through a legal representative. In addition, HEE is required to report in writing annually on whistleblowing disclosures made to it as a prescribed person without identifying the workers concerned or their employers.
Rather than set up a new whistleblowing body— I have used the HEE as an example—I press the Government to find an existing mechanism, maybe within the Cabinet Office, a body that exists already and can be set up in the public sector and defined as a prescribed person specifically for public sector fraud, rather than setting up a particular office for the whistleblower.
We need to recognise that, although we are asking workers to do the right thing, we are also asking them to do something that is emotionally difficult and distressing. People should be empowered to stand up for the correct use of public money, which can happen only if cast-iron reassurances can be given to them.
With those explanations, I hope the Government will consider these points as they progress with the Bill, focusing on practical, sensible but proportionate proposals that will encourage people—which is the whole point—to come forward when they are made aware of some wrongdoing.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, on the important issue of whistleblowing. Protections for whistleblowing are a key aspect of counterfraud investigations. A huge amount of the information originally received to guide our investigations comes from whistleblowers, so making sure that the appropriate protections are in place is incredibly important going forward. I welcome the opportunity to explore what more can be done and to reflect on what currently exists.
It will not surprise the noble Baroness that I am unlikely to commit to a new agency within this Bill today, but I welcome the opportunity to meet her to explore in more detail anything that she believes we can do within the confines of the Bill. I sat through a similar debate on the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill, when we also touched on these issues. I would like to reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, that the meeting she suggests is one that we have already discussed, but we will now advance it. I will meet all the agencies that she has highlighted to talk about what they do and do not require.
Currently, to qualify for the whistleblowing protections provided by the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998, as inserted into the Employment Rights Act 1996, a worker needs to have a reasonable belief that their disclosure tends to show one of the relevant failures set out in legislation, that the disclosure is in the public interest and that the disclosure needs to be made to the relevant person—for example, the employer, a legal adviser or a prescribed person. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, touched on the challenges of using “workers”. DBT guidance sets out the definition of a worker as extending to agency workers and individuals supplied via an intermediary; non-employees undertaking training or work experience as part of a training course, otherwise than at an educational establishment; self-employed doctors, dentists, ophthalmologists and pharmacists in the NHS; police officers; student nurses; and student midwives. So although it is “worker”, there is a slightly wider definition.