Children and Families Bill

Viscount Eccles Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Grand Committee

My final point about these two notes, and in support of a number of the amendments, is that they are just notes: they do not, as far as I know, have any status. It may be that the Government will adhere to these notes, but they do not have to, and no future Government would be bound by them. They have no status, which is an argument for the Government accepting at least some of the amendments we are considering today, so that some of the requirements that the notes say the Government will implement, in part at least, are included in the Bill.

[Viscount Eccles (Con)]

My Lords, I will be leading on another group of amendments and will try not to duplicate anything, but it is very urgent that the Government clarify what they believe the position of the Children’s Commissioner to have been and what they believe it is going to be. In principle, nothing is changed by the Bill in front of us—there is an extension of words but nothing is changed. The Children’s Commissioner is a corporation sole, which is quite a strange type of institution and not necessarily much beloved by the Treasury, but there you are, that is what the Children’s Commissioner is. The Children’s Commissioner has, I think, 27 staff and a budget of just over £2 million, or under £2.5 million. The office is one-tenth the size of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which has just been reduced in size by quite a large amount but remains 10 times the size of the Office of the Children’s Commissioner. That is a nationally accredited human rights institution. There is a question as to whether we want two, which I will raise in more detail in the next group of amendments.

The fact of the matter is that the Children’s Commissioner has been really rather successful. It is a thorn in the flesh, to quote the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. It has freewheeled pretty well on a very small platform and produced some very interesting work. It can produce only recommendations: it has no power to make anybody do anything except write back to it under the 2004 Act to tell it, “Thank you for telling us what you told us and this is what we are going to do about it”. It has no executive authority at all. Do the Government intend that it should have any executive authority? I cannot see any in the Bill. It seems to me that some of the comment on what might or might not happen has got rather ahead of the Government’s game, and we are looking for clarity from the Government as to what they intend and what they expect.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, raised a very interesting point about raising expectations and then disappointing them. That is one of the reasons why the electorate are being turned off election after election: the Westminster system has a brilliant way of raising expectations and then disappointing them. I hope that this will not be another example, because it is not a good idea that it should be. There are some very serious questions here about resources, about what the role is and about what the Government expect of the Children’s Commissioner. I do not think that we have had answers as yet to those questions. I hope to hear them from my noble friend on the Front Bench.

[Lord Nash]

My Lords, Amendments 245, 255A and 257 through to 262 deal with issues related to the Children’s Commissioner’s independence. The independence of the commissioner is an important point of principle—and it is helpful to have this discussion, so that I may provide noble Lords with some assurances. I am grateful to all noble Lords involved in raising these issues, especially the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, my noble friend Lord Lester and the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, for speaking on his behalf—all of whom I know have long been passionate champions in relation to children’s rights.

John Dunford identified that a “perceived” lack of independence from government had affected the Children’s Commissioner’s credibility and, following his review, he made various recommendations to counter those perceptions. The Government have acted on his recommendations in full. We have removed the provisions that allowed the Secretary of State to direct the commissioner and the requirement for the commissioner to consult the Secretary of State. We are changing the terms of appointment to a single, six-year term, to remove the potential for political influence through the reappointment process. We have also made provision for direct contact between the commissioner and Parliament, including the laying of the annual report directly before Parliament and the ability of the commissioner to raise matters directly with Parliament.

I thank noble Lords who have spoken to Amendment 245 and give assurances that the Bill already provides that the commissioner has complete freedom in deciding his or her activities, timetables and priorities; under the primary function, it is made explicit that the commissioner has a free hand to investigate any matter relating to the rights or interests of children. Having carried out an investigation, the commissioner is free to make any recommendation that he or she deems appropriate.

It is true that as a non-departmental public body, the OCC is subject to some controls in relation to its spending. These controls apply to all NDPBs and are designed to ensure value for money for the taxpayer and to avoid unnecessary public spending at a time when the Government are seeking to reduce the budget deficit. Extremely important though the role of Children’s Commissioner is, I do not think that she should be completely exempt from these controls. However, where the commissioner has sought an exemption or relaxation from these arrangements and has demonstrated that they could compromise his or her independence, those requests have been granted. This arrangement seems to be working well and we see no need to change it.

The Government agree that the Children’s Commissioner should be accountable to Parliament through his or her annual report and are therefore grateful that the Joint Committee on Human Rights has made a commitment to hold an annual evidence session to scrutinise the commissioner’s work. I share the noble Lord’s concerns about overburdening the commissioner with reports to parliamentary committees but it is important for his or her independence that the commissioner is not accountable to the Secretary of State or another Minister. That is why we have welcomed the offer from the JCHR to hold an annual debate. This will be an opportunity for Parliament to ask questions and raise issues with the commissioner and, in turn, the committee will be able to raise matters with all the relevant Secretaries of State.

Amendments 257, 258, 259, 260 and 261 in this group concern the appointment of the commissioner, any dismissal of the commissioner and the involvement of Parliament in these processes. The role of the Children’s Commissioner is an important one and I fully accept that the appointment and dismissal procedures need to be fair and transparent. However, I do not think that it is necessary or appropriate to define the conditions for either process further than is already done in the legislation.

We have provided a note in the other place on how the appointment process is expected to work. That note explains that the appointment of the commissioner would be in accordance with the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments’ code of practice. This ensures that candidates are appointed on merit, following a fair and open recruitment process.

The note also clarifies that children will be involved in the recruitment process and that we would expect Parliament, through one of its committees, to have a role in agreeing the job description and carrying out a pre-appointment hearing. However, the OCPA code of practice is clear that the parliamentary committee undertaking the pre-appointment hearing should not have a right of veto on the appointment. To pick up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, about the Secretary of State explaining publicly if he disagrees with the Select Committee, I do not think it appropriate for such a public debate to take place about the suitability of candidates.

In addition, I do not consider that legislation is the right place to set out the personal qualities needed for the role. These will be determined by the panel that is established to lead the appointment process, which is chaired by an independent assessor appointed by OCPA, and subject to quality assurance by Parliament. I hope that this provides the necessary assurances.

On dismissal, the existing provisions represent a high threshold. A dismissal could potentially be subject to judicial review and overturned if it was found to have been made inappropriately. The courts provide ample protection against the commissioner being dismissed on arbitrary grounds. I would expect the Secretary of State to want to consult the chair of a relevant parliamentary committee before taking such a drastic action. However, there may well be reasons why such matters would need to be treated in confidence. I hope that noble Lords are reassured that both the appointments and dismissal processes currently in place are fair and transparent without the need for further prescription in legislation.

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Moved by

[Viscount Eccles]

249A: Clause 79, page 52, line 11, leave out from “promoting” to second “the” in line 13

[Viscount Eccles]

My Lords, I would like to continue to probe the question: what is the Government’s true opinion of the Children’s Commissioner as a corporation sole? I hope that my Government are not exclusively depending on John Dunford. His report was published three years ago. That is a third of the life of the Office of the Children’s Commissioner so I suppose that something must have happened over the past three years; I do not think that things will be exactly the same and I would like to know how they have developed.

On another occasion, maybe on Report, I will want to have a longer discussion about independence. I will confine myself to saying that arm’s-length relationships between public bodies and the Government are twisted arm’s-length relationships, and if you are funded by public money there is no such thing as independence in the true meaning of the word. If you consider the American War of Independence, which resulted in the United States of America, you can completely forget that as a meaning of the word when it is applied to a public body.

Three years on, I will just make the comment that John Dunford did his report on his own, in five months; he is a very able man. He did not have any peer group review; I think it was mentioned earlier that sometimes it is a good thing to have some peer group review. I hope that the Government are not just taking cover behind John Dunford because by now they should have an opinion of their own.

I have two background thoughts when I raise these issues. One is the size of the superstructure that we have built in recent years on top of what is, to me, the front line, which has been very frequently mentioned during our debates. This is a very big superstructure, starting with the United Nations—190 signatories, not including the United States of America; some 70 of them have a national human rights institution. The expert committee in Geneva gets a report every five years. We last sent ours in 2008. The next one is going in 2014, which seems to be six years, not five, and there may be some message in that. That draft report is 200 pages long. It is sponsored by the department present here today, which has to get evidence from the whole of the rest of government, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, mentioned.

My second amendment is also a probing amendment. I just wanted to remind myself that everybody is concerned with the human rights of children. There is no exception—apart from, perhaps, one or two people living on a beach in western Scotland who have completely dropped out into a hut. However, I do not think that there is anybody who is not concerned. There are parents and there are teachers; many people have two roles.

If one third of children under 18 are not represented by an adult, by whom are they going to be represented? We have to remember the huge scope of the subject we are discussing, and sometimes a degree of unreality comes into it. For example, the Explanatory Notes say that this Bill is “strengthening” the Children’s Commissioner. In what way is it strengthening the Children’s Commissioner? It does not appear from my noble friend’s answer to the previous debate that the commissioner is going to get any more money. They are given more duties; they are even given a direction by Parliament to look into advocacy, while the rest of the Explanatory Notes say that we are not going to tell them what to do, we are going to leave them entirely free to decide what to do for themselves—but apparently not in the matter of advocacy.

The Children’s Commissioner also has a duty in the Bill to,

“consider the potential effect on the rights of children of government policy proposals and government proposals for legislation”.

You could employ 27 people on doing only that and they would have plenty to do. The Government need to be much clearer with us on what they mean by strengthening. If you add to the duties of an organisation but do not add to its resources, you could argue that you weaken it.

Where has the Children’s Commissioner stood in relation to the size of the task? I think that the commissioners have done rather well. They have done research, co-operated with a lot of other bodies, produced interesting reports, been a thorn in the flesh and rather successful lobbyists. Whom have they lobbied? They have lobbied the Government in general. You can argue about whether you want a lobbyist 100% funded by public money, or whether you would rather it was Amnesty International or some other rather looser and less controlled body that you want to do your lobbying, but it seems to have worked rather well.

The question I end with is: what is going to change? How is this Bill going to change the capability of the Children’s Commissioner? Or is it going to continue with business as usual? I really would like an answer to that question. I beg to move.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I have some amendments in this group, but before I speak to them, I will say a word about the amendment of the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles. I do not support it because it would take out what is the most significant improvement in the powers and duties of the Children’s Commissioner: namely, the duty to promote and protect the rights of children in England. This is making our commissioner a rights-based commissioner for the first time and I very much welcome that. I hope that the Bill makes a difference and that the Government are not, in the words of the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, “playing a game”.

I will speak to Amendments 250, 254, 255 and 256 in this group. Before I do, I will mention my support for Amendment 252 on the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and Amendment 266A about a duty on public bodies to respect children’s rights and give proper regard to their views, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Massey. However, in order to save the Committee’s time, I will leave both noble Baronesses to speak for me on those amendments.

Before I go into the detail of my amendments, I will pay tribute to the coalition Government and the current Ministers, and particularly to the former Children’s Minister, my colleague Sarah Teather MP, for bringing the Children’s Commissioner for England much closer to the Paris principles and making the office a much better national human rights institution, as it should have been from the start.

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[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 252 in a group of amendments that are largely designed to strengthen the role of the Office of the Children’s Commissioner for England. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, whom I thank for her support on this amendment, my starting point is to applaud the ways in which the Bill already strengthens the role of the Children’s Commissioner, in particular through the incorporation of an explicit children’s rights-based remit. I therefore have to part company with the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, on that—although I very much agree with him on his point about resources.

[Viscount Eccles]

Nothing in the 2004 Act would prevent the commissioner saying anything that she wants to say, or investigating anything that she wants to investigate, in the area of rights. My point about it being stated in the Bill is that it is a move towards creating another national human rights institution. The question to the Government is: is that what they are going to do? If they are not, there is nothing wrong with the 2004 Act.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

But because it was not an explicitly children’s rights-based institution, it did not have the status internationally that other children’s commissioners have. So this is a step forward and I am glad to be able to support the Government. In fact, I was one of those who criticised my own Government for failing to write in an explicit children’s rights-based remit.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights, of which I am a member, welcomed the reforms as,

“constituting a significant human rights enhancing measure”.

However, we believe that the reforms do not go quite far enough and therefore proposed this amendment. The intention is that the Bill should expressly define the rights of children in England to include the rights in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child for the purposes of defining the commissioner’s primary function. At present, the Bill simply requires the commissioner to “have regard” to these rights. I am sure noble Lords will agree that that is a much weaker formulation.

The recommendation that the commissioner’s primary purpose should be defined explicitly with reference to the UN convention should not be construed as just the icing on the cake, for it is about the ingredients of the cake itself. This was recognised in the Dunford report commissioned by the incoming coalition Government. It recommended that the new role of the Children’s Commissioner should include,

“promoting and protecting the rights of children under the UNCRC”,

so I am afraid that the Minister was not totally accurate when he said that the Government had taken on board all the recommendations of the Dunford report.

The UNICEF global study of independent human rights institutions for children underlined that:

“There is one non-negotiable attribute of all independent human rights institutions for children: a mandate rooted in the Convention on the Rights of the Child”.

However, the JCHR’s “negotiations” or dialogue with the Government on just such a mandate came to naught and the Bill retains this weak requirement simply to have regard to the convention. The Government’s original objection that the UNCRC has not been directly incorporated into UK law was met by our carefully worded amendment, which does not imply incorporation, as the Government now acknowledge. They then fell back on two arguments. The first was that,

“the UNCRC contains a broad mix of rights and aspirations, rather than a more classic formulation of rights such as those in the ECHR”.

Secondly, they argued that some UNCRC articles are broader than children’s rights as such and include, for example, parents’ rights or the state’s responsibility to create an environment in which children’s rights can be realised.

The committee was not persuaded by those arguments and responded:

“It is a matter of common consensus that the UNCRC contains some very important children’s rights. The fact that some of its provisions are couched in aspirational terms, or impose responsibilities and obligations on the State, does not detract from this fact”.

Indeed, these aspects of the convention are surely true of human rights treaties generally and have not deterred other states from incorporating the full convention into domestic law. In any event, the amendment is carefully worded with this possible objection in mind: it defines the rights of children to include, not the UNCRC itself, but “the rights in” the UNCRC.

As Carolyne Willow, a long-standing children’s rights expert, has argued, the suggestion that the reference to parents,

“somehow diminishes children’s rights, is muddled. Article 18(2) of the treaty sets out the basis for states supporting parents—in order to guarantee and promote the rights of children. This is no different from recognising and assisting carers in order to uphold the rights of disabled people, or guaranteeing support to adoptive parents as a means of securing the child’s right to a family life”.

The JCHR believes that the Children’s Commissioner,

“should be entrusted to interpret the UNCRC and to take a sensible and properly advised approach about the children’s rights that it protects”.

The Government’s refusal to accept our recommendation suggests that they do not trust the commissioner to do so. The arguments put up by the Government are weak and leave me puzzled as to why they are so resistant to embedding the commissioner’s welcome children’s rights-based remit in what the Alliance for Reform of the Children’s Commissioner describes as, “the authoritative international legal statute for children’s human rights”. I hope that the Minister will take this away and think again.

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[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 251. It would allow the Children’s Commissioner to conduct an investigation into the case of an individual child in specific circumstances which enable the commissioner to fulfil his or her primary purpose, which is defined as his or her strategic role. This principle, which underpins the existence of the Office of the Children’s Commissioner, is accepted by everyone. This amendment seeks not to undermine it, but to aid the Children’s Commissioner in its pursuit.

We believe that the current proposed wording serves to undermine the ability of the commissioner to work strategically. Five years ago, Meltem Avcil, a 14 year-old girl, slashed her wrists when her bail application was turned down when she was detained at Yarl’s Wood detention centre. After self-harming, the child was handcuffed to a hospital bed. The then Children’s Commissioner for England, Al Aynsley-Green, investigated her case of self-harm. His report concluded that detaining the child for 80 days had amounted to inhuman treatment and recommended public policy changes to avoid such events occurring in the future. This is just one example of where the ability to investigate an individual case has advanced the strategic work of the Children’s Commissioner.

Another example is from Wales, where an investigation into specific cases of school exclusion led to the discovery that children were routinely informally excluded for prolonged periods in a manner that was against their interests. When this was debated in the Commons, the Minister, Edward Timpson, responded that the injunction on such investigations was to prevent the commissioner,

“becoming bogged down in individual casework at the expense of the OCC’s strategic role”.

That is an unsatisfactory response; it is clear that specific investigations can serve to aid a strategic approach.

Our amendment does not allow the commissioner carte blanche to engage in investigations or, indeed, make the commissioner feel under an obligation to investigate all individual cases which he or she receives. Instead, it is highly limiting and restricts investigations to when it is judged that they can genuinely advance the commissioner’s strategic role. Furthermore, the wording of our amendment also serves as a rebuttal to the suggestion that it would create a presumption that casework was part of the commissioner’s role and that it offered an alternate point of appeal to existing channels.

There also appears to be an element of confusion among Ministers. Mr Timpson said that it is “simply not possible” for the commissioner to investigate individual cases,

“without the commissioner’s strategic role being compromised”.

Nevertheless, in further discussion, he proceeded to point to other provisions in the Bill which allow the commissioner to,

“initiate a formal inquiry into the case of an individual child where he or she considers that it raises issues of public policy that are relevant to the other children under the separate inquiry function”.—[Official Report, Commons, Children and Families Bill Committee, 23/4/13; cols. 681-82.]

That is an apparent tacit admission that it is possible for the commissioner to investigate individual cases without compromising his strategic role. Unfortunately, the Bill makes it clear that that simply will not be possible in future. All of us accept the fundamental importance of the strategic role of the Office of the Children’s Commissioner yet it also seems obvious that this can be properly pursued only if the commissioner has the freedom fully to investigate individual cases in very specific instances. Our amendment seeks to find the appropriate wording to ensure that this can occur. I hope that the Minister will feel able to support our proposal, if not the exact wording of our amendment.

[Viscount Eccles]

My Lords, I have a third amendment in this group, to Schedule 6 and on a very different subject. It is proposed that the Children’s Rights Director, who is part of Ofsted, is to be transferred to the Office of the Children’s Commissioner, taking the duties and powers of the office with him. Is that already happening? If it is, will the resources that are transferred balance with the duties and the costs of carrying out those duties in such a way as to make no material difference to the Office of the Children’s Commissioner in respect of resources?

[Lord Nash]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 249A to 256, 266A and 266AZZA.

Amendment 249A was tabled by my noble friend Lord Eccles, who asked how we are strengthening the commissioner’s function. We believe that amending the commissioner’s primary function to one of promoting and protecting children’s rights is, as my noble friend Lady Walmsley and the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, said, an important step forward in establishing the OCC as a credible organisation that meets the key requirements expected of human rights institutions. There is much support for our proposals. For example, in its report following pre-legislative scrutiny, the Joint Committee on Human Rights described the proposed new remit of the commissioner as,

“a significant strengthening of the Commissioner’s mandate, and is an important step in the transformation of the office into a fully fledged human rights institution for children”.

The way in which the primary function is described matters. The lack of a statutory rights-based remit is the main reason why the Children’s Commissioner has, to date, only been accepted as an associate, rather than full, member of the European Network of Commissioners.

I turn now to Amendment 250, which was tabled by my noble friend Lady Walmsley, to whom I pay tribute for her effective and long-standing work on children’s rights. I agree with her that part of the commissioner’s role should be to raise awareness of children’s rights. However, in determining what activities to set out in the Bill, our approach has been to avoid including activities that are already implicit within the commissioner’s primary function, and we believe that raising public awareness of children’s rights is an inherent part of the commissioner’s new primary function of promoting and protecting children’s rights.

The commissioner can intervene in legal cases where he or she has a sufficient interest in the matter before the courts. Indeed, the commissioner has used her current powers to intervene in a number of legal cases in the past. However, the effect of the proposed amendment could be to create an expectation that the commissioner would respond to every request to intervene in legal matters that he or she receives. I do not believe that this would be helpful. In his review, John Dunford gave an example of another commissioner who had instigated legal proceedings to take a particular children’s rights issue to the courts which were unsuccessful and costly. This is not something we would want to encourage.

Turning to Amendment 251, I assure noble Lords that there is nothing in the Bill that prevents the commissioner talking to individual children or using evidence drawn from the cases of individual children to inform the primary function. In fact, it is hard to imagine that the commissioner could investigate a matter strategically without using evidence from individual cases to support his or her findings.

As noble Lords will be aware, where the commissioner makes recommendations under the primary function, he or she can require a written response setting out how those recommendations will be addressed. Amendment 253, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, seeks to make similar provision in respect of the separate advice and assistance function. This role is currently provided by the Children’s Rights Director to the children within his remit and is intended to be an informal, light-touch service. It may involve as little as a telephone call to the DCS in a local authority, and the amendment therefore runs the risk of overformalising what is working well as an informal process.

I fully recognise that other groups of children are vulnerable and in need of extra support, including those mentioned in Amendment 256. However, I do not believe that this means that we should include them in the definition set out in Clause 86—the purpose of which is to provide a definition of the children who currently fall within the Children’s Rights Director’s remit—so that other provisions in the Bill can be applied specifically to that group of children. Clause 86 is not an attempt to define vulnerable children for the purposes of the commissioner’s primary function and there is therefore no reason to include other groups of vulnerable children within it, as the Bill makes clear through the provision in Clause 79. When determining how best to discharge the primary function, the commissioner must have particular regard to,

“other groups of children who the Commissioner considers to be at particular risk of having their rights infringed”.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, for highlighting in Amendment 252 the importance of the UNCRC to the commissioner’s primary function. Our view is that, in exercising his or her primary function, the commissioner would be expected to take account of all children’s rights that are relevant. This would include the UNCRC and its optional protocols that the UK has ratified, rights set out in other international treaties and rights within domestic law. However, we also recognise that the UNCRC is central to the children’s rights arena and so make an explicit reference to the UNCRC in the Bill. We believe that this represents the best formulation.

Turning to Amendment 252A, it is our clear intention that the commissioner’s work should be informed by the views and interests of children. As well as the overarching requirement to involve children as set out in new Section 2B(1) of the Children Act, the Bill includes requirements on the commissioner to: make children aware of his or her role and how they can contact him or her; consult children on the commissioner’s forward plans, before finalising his or her business plan for the year ahead; and to report on the action he or she has taken to involve children in his or her annual report.

In meeting all these requirements, the commissioner will be required to take particular steps to involve children whom he or she considers have fewer opportunities to make their views known. I am sure that noble Lords will therefore agree that the Bill includes ample provision for children to be involved in the commissioner’s activities and to influence his or her agenda. We agree that this should include a wide range of children’s views but we do not think it is feasible to include a requirement to involve all children, which Amendment 252A seeks to do.

With respect to reporting on the extent to which children enjoy the rights set out in the UNCRC, I note that in response to a recommendation by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, we have made it clear that monitoring implementation of the UNCRC is within the scope of the commissioner’s remit. Amendment 254 goes further than this, however, and creates an expectation that the commissioner would conduct an annual review of UNCRC implementation. This would be a significant undertaking and place a burden on the commissioner’s office that would inevitably divert resources away from other priorities. We have no objection to the commissioner carrying out an annual review but do not think that he or she should be required to do so.

I agree it is important that the Children’s Commissioner should not just consult children but take their views into consideration, but I am not persuaded that Amendment 255 is necessary. The commissioner’s primary function includes promoting awareness of the views and interests of children, and it is difficult to imagine how a commissioner could carry out that function without taking account of those views. Reporting on how he or she has done so is a matter of good practice and therefore it is expected that this would happen without having the requirement to that effect in the Bill.

Amendment 266AZZZA relates to provision in the Bill that enables the Secretary of State to make a staff transfer scheme. This will allow staff working for the Office of the Children’s Rights Director, currently located in Ofsted, to transfer to the Office of the Children’s Commissioner and will ensure that those staff are protected in terms of, for example, their continuity of employment and pension entitlements.

I would like to assure my noble friend Lord Eccles that these arrangements are already well in hand and that Roger Morgan, the current Children’s Rights Director, has been closely involved in the design and development of these provisions and continues to be part of the working group which is overseeing the transition to the new arrangements.

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[Lord Nash]

I will write to the noble Lord on this matter.

[Viscount Eccles]

My Lords, I am grateful to all those who took part and to the Minister for his reply. At the risk of repeating myself, you can strengthen a mandate, but that is not the same as strengthening the organisation which has to carry the mandate out. If I remember rightly, John Dunford joined in the disappointment with the way that the Children’s Commissioner operated until 2010. I think that disappointment, if it is shared, will continue because the Government’s answers are that business will continue as usual. I make no negative or positive comment on that. I just wish I knew whether that was the correct interpretation in the view of the Government. In particular, the relationship of the Children’s Commissioner with the Equality and Human Rights Commission is very important. If they are going to co-operate, work together and do things jointly, there is a strong case for leaving the Children’s Commissioner pretty open, pretty freewheeling and able to look at whatever the commissioner thinks should be looked at and to make recommendations as a result of that work, which is what has been happening and, in my view, has happened rather successfully. I do not want to stand in criticism; I just wish I knew what the Government really expect so that we could understand what they expect and out there the public could understand what they could really expect. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 249A withdrawn.