Criminal Justice Bill (First sitting)

Vicky Ford Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Jess Phillips]

Thank you.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

Q On the issue of rough sleeping, I totally get that the police need to work with partners. By the way, I would just like to say that Essex police are doing phenomenal work on this and many other issues in the Chelmsford city centre, using hotspots and grid policing and so on, but occasionally, even though we are trying to give people support, there are some people with complex needs who are still sleeping on the streets, and we sometimes have the issue that they are sleeping in the fire escape of a large store, for example, which causes danger to others. Are the powers in this Bill the sort of powers that you could use to gently request that that person sleeps in another venue, without blocking a fire escape?

Chief Constable Stephens: Policing can gently request, persuade, cajole and encourage without powers.

[Vicky Ford]

Or stronger.

Chief Constable Stephens: Back to my earlier point, we would want to do so in conjunction with other partners that can provide the support. From a policing perspective, for us to get to the point where we would want to use powers, we would want to know that it is causing a danger to somebody or that there is real criminality. I can think of a number of ways in which we would be able to deal with the example you describe without resorting to powers.

[Vicky Ford]

Q Okay, but they are not doing it now, so they clearly do not have the power now. Will this give police the power to say, “No sleeping in this fire escape, which is putting hundreds of lives at risk if there is a fire”?

Chief Constable Stephens: This would give a power to move them on, but my previous points stand.

[Vicky Ford]

Q Thank you. On the issue of retail crime, again, my local police have been doing some very good work on tackling shoplifting, including of smaller items, but sometimes, obviously, there is concern about assaults on shop workers. How do you currently tackle assaults on shop workers? Would having a specific offence of assaulting a shop worker make a difference, or would you then say that we need to have offences of assaulting a teacher or assaulting lots of other professions as well?

Chief Constable Stephens: It would not make a difference in terms of the investigation and operational response, because clearly that is something that police would act on anyway. On whether you would want additional emphasis—whether it would be the will of Parliament to have additional emphasis—when it comes to sentencing, that is a separate matter. But it would not make a difference to the initial policing response to investigate the assault.

[Vicky Ford]

Q Okay. From time to time, we get very serious issues in the night-time economy, with people being spiked. The concern is often raised that although spiking is covered by law, it is a very ancient law, and if one had a specific offence about spiking that was crystal clear, that would act as a deterrent to the spikers. What are your thoughts on that?

Chief Constable Stephens: We are very concerned about drink spiking and its rise over recent years. Powers to give that additional emphasis, as a deterrent, would be welcome.

[Vicky Ford]

Thank you.

[The Chair]

I remind Members to try to avoid asking the same questions, because we are limited for time with our witnesses. I call Mark Garnier.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Laura Farris)]

Q I have just one question for you, Mr Biggar. You were talking about child sex abuse material. I want to ask specifically about border services. At the NCA, have you encountered as a limiting factor the fact that border services cannot search electronic devices such as laptops and iPads for potential child sex abuse material, even when they have intelligence or evidence to suggest that a person entering or leaving the United Kingdom may be an offender in that way? Are you aware of that? If so, can you comment on it? Do not worry if the answer is no.

Graeme Biggar: No, but let me write to you and the Committee about that.

[Vicky Ford]

Q May I ask the question I put to the previous witness about spiking? It comes up from time to time in the night-time economy in my constituency. If there were a modernisation of the law that made it very clear that spiking is a legal offence, could that act as a deterrent?

Baljit Ubhey: I think it could be helpful in communicating very specifically. At the moment, there is a specific offence under the Sexual Offences Act 2003. In addition, there is the Offences against the Person Act 1861, which is old legislation although we still use it for a wide variety of criminality. I take the point, however, that the language of some of the offences under that Act may not be as explicit. We can prosecute spiking, whether it is related to sexual offences or otherwise, but modernising may be helpful.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

If there is time, Chair, I would like to ask a couple of things.