Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Lord Coaker Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 29th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a great privilege to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie. It is good to hear the words that she had to say and the way in which she said them.

I join noble Lords across the House in welcoming the noble Lord, Lord Caine, to his position. It is not only about his experience and knowledge; people think of his personal interest and desire to do something. It makes a big difference when people believe that a particular noble Lord or Minister has integrity in what they are doing, and that is something that he will bring to this role. He will know that I have said on many occasions that the people of Northern Ireland—indeed, many of their representatives here, including noble Lords—have often felt that it is a neglected part of the discussions that take place here. I think there is some truth in that, but with him as a Minister here I think people can be reassured, and that will go a long way towards helping with this situation.

I thank many noble Lords for welcoming me to this position. At the moment, I am merely off the subs bench for my noble friend Lord Murphy—but you never know where that is going to go. It is a privilege for me to wind up this debate for Her Majesty’s Opposition. As noble Lords will know, and as others have mentioned, I have had the privilege of the post of shadow Secretary of State twice over the years, first when Ed Miliband was leader of the Labour Party and then under Jeremy Corbyn—which was a challenge in itself.

I visited all the parliamentary constituencies in Northern Ireland—in fact, the constituencies of former Members of Parliament here. I did so not only to show a commitment but to try to gain a better understanding of the sorts of issues that we talk about here and to meet and talk to the people of Northern Ireland. I hope that, as a result of that, I better understand the challenges that there still are but also the way in which the determination and work of so many people here has led to huge amounts of progress. In rereading the history and in the visits that I made, I have always been struck by the way in which so many people, including many people here, overcame huge difficulties and challenges, things that I could not possibly comprehend in my own life.

I was thinking about when I went to Stormont and met Peter Robinson as First Minister alongside Martin McGuinness as Deputy First Minister in a functioning Northern Ireland Government. I know that a couple of years later, in 2017, the Assembly collapsed and did not function for three years, but many noble Lords and others spent those three years trying to restore the Assembly according to the principles on which it had been based. In January 2020—notwithstanding the point that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, made about the facts of it; I take that point—an agreement was reached by the majority in the New Decade, New Approach document. It is the implementation of that which we have been discussing today, and which indeed was discussed in the other place.

The Minister will know that the Bill has much support in this place, as we want it used as a springboard to move forward to the promise of a better future for all in Northern Ireland. Quite rightly, though, as many noble Lords have stated in this debate, there are issues of concern that will quite rightly be raised in Committee, not as a way of opposing what the Government are doing but to try to improve the legislation and take it forward.

To go back to the point about the noble Lord, Lord Caine, being the Minister here, I think people believe that he will listen to the debate and try to act on it. Whether that changes the primary legislation, who knows? But people will know that in the discussions that he has with civil servants, with people and their representatives in Northern Ireland and with noble Lords in this House, there is someone who will take account of what is being said to him and try to influence it.

Without going through every contribution, let me highlight a couple of those issues. The contributions of the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, are customarily thoughtful, whether here or in the other place; he highlighted the protocol, which I want to ask the Minister about. The noble Lords, Lord Empey, Lord Godson, Lord Hay, Lord Browne, Lord McCrea, and my noble friend Lady Ritchie, all in different ways raised the protocol. It is of fundamental importance to the context in which this debate is taking place. It is almost beyond how we have got to this point. We are here and if we want this to move forward and for the Assembly to function, unionists, nationalists and those of all strands of opinion must come together to find a solution. As my noble friend Lady Smith said, you would have thought that representatives from Northern Ireland would be involved in those discussions. I find that deeply disappointing.

The noble Lord, Lord Frost, is leading the negotiations for the Government. Can the noble Lord, Lord Caine, with his knowledge and understanding of Northern Ireland, say anything about whether his appointment will make any difference to the way in which those negotiations are taking place? He may not want to answer that or may not be able to, but people are saying that this cannot just carry on without some acknowledgement of the difficulties that it is causing and how to overcome them without upsetting nationalist opinion or part of unionist opinion.

Can the Minister undertake to speak to the noble Lord, Lord Frost, to ensure that he is aware of the discussions and the points that have been made by so many noble Lords in this debate on the seriousness of the situation? I know that he understands the seriousness, but what will he do about it in representing Her Majesty’s Government in negotiations that are taking place between the UK and the EU, and the impact that those negotiations have on Northern Ireland? To be fair, I do not expect the Minister to be able to say that he will do so, but can he undertake at least to talk to the noble Lord, Lord Frost, and emphasise the importance of this? That might provide some reassurance.

The noble Lord, Lord Bew, made a really important point about new paragraph 1(1)(c) in Clause 4 and how upholding the Nolan principles relates to the Committee on Standards not applying to the devolved Administrations. I am sure that the Minister will take that forward. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Godson, for his reference to my noble friend Lord Murphy, who is not well enough to be with us in person. He is taking the necessary precautions, but the quote from him that the noble Lord used shows the importance of establishing the Assembly and having it up and running. That would show the people of Northern Ireland, or their representatives, that the voice of Northern Ireland is properly heard wherever it needs to be.

I thank my noble friend Lady Ritchie for highlighting again the principles of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement and the subsequent agreements. Whenever particular issues arise in Northern Ireland, it is always something to read those documents and look at the brilliance of how they were negotiated. People overcame difficulties that nobody expected would be overcome.

I thank my noble friend Lord Hain for his contribution. He is right to point out the issue of legacy. I am sure that the Minister will say that it is not necessarily within the scope of this Bill and will have to be dealt with in other Bills, but it is an issue that must be dealt with.

These legacy issues impact on the context within which other legislation is discussed. If the Minister were able to say something about when we might expect some discussion of this and some legislation, people would find it reassuring, even if they disagreed with it, that the Government were coming forward with this. We would know where we were, and that would provide some context for all this.

This has been an important debate. There are issues around petitions of concern, what powers caretaker Ministers—however we want to describe them—will have, who will monitor them and who will hold them to account, what it means with respect to standards and so on. However, the Bill provides progress, but we need that progress to come quickly—and the commencement period is something the Minister will have to address. It is a pleasure and a privilege to be involved in a Northern Ireland debate again, and I hope that the discussions we have had, and my contribution and that of my noble friend Lady Smith, help to inform the debate and that we get back to the place where we want to be: a functioning Northern Ireland Executive, with a functioning Northern Ireland Assembly, working with the UK Government to provide for the people of Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Coaker]

8: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause—
“Report on implementation of The New Decade, New Approach Deal
(1) The Secretary of State must lay a report before each House of Parliament and before the Northern Ireland Assembly no later than six months after the date on which this Act is passed.(2) The report under subsection (1) must set out—(a) whether, and how, each provision of this Act has been implemented, and(b) what plans the Government has to bring forward further legislative proposals to implement the remainder of The New Decade, New Approach Deal.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new clause requires the Government to report on what parts of The New Decade, New Approach Deal have been achieved under this Act, and what plans the Government has to implement the remainder of the deal.

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[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I apologise to the Committee for my late arrival. I was unavoidably detained. I will read Hansard to discover the various contributions that have been made. It was very interesting to hear the thoughtful contributions about the constitutional issues that are emerging as a result of different policy decisions.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, that, notwithstanding what she has just said, I hope that she appreciates the reason I tabled this probing amendment. I know that among all the huge constitutional clashes that there are at the moment and the deep concerns arising from the protocol, some may regard an amendment which seeks to lay a report after six months to see how far New Decade, New Approach has got may not seem to be of huge political relevance, but it is important that we discuss it. That is why I tabled my probing Amendment 8. I also support Amendment 9 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie.

I thought that the Minister would say that much of this is beyond the scope of the Bill. Since we are talking about the implementation of New Decade, New Approach, I thought the Minister would be interested in ensuring that I spoke only to Annexe A. It is the Government’s financial and economic commitments to Northern Ireland as agreed in New Decade, New Approach, so it is the document that underpins it. I was interested in what the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, said. He spoke about the need for education, environment and health. All that is laid out in New Decade, New Approach. The purpose of my amendment is simply to ask the Government what happens to all this? The constitutional debate goes on, but alongside that there are the very real issues that the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, raised. Other members of the Committee will know better than me and understand the concerns of the people of Northern Ireland.

The annexe sets out the areas that the UK Government’s financial commitment will cover and the conditions that would be attached. Such a report in six months would no doubt detail the financial commitments that the Government have made to Northern Ireland in order to meet everything that is laid out in New Decade, New Approach. I will be interested if the Minister can lay out the financial package that has been made available to Northern Ireland and the additional money made available to ensure the delivery of New Decade, New Approach.

For example, it talks about

“Providing the Executive with additional support for 2020/21, and addressing the health crisis”


and

“Providing additional funding for the Executive in 2020/21 … to place Northern Ireland’s finances on a sustainable footing, and address its priorities, such as delivering parity with England and Wales for nurses’ pay”.


It would be interesting to know whether that is actually happening, is a government aspiration or is just on the back burner.

Under “transforming public services”, as well as health, it talks about

“a better and more efficient education system”

and

“Ensuring faster, fairer justice”.


Under “turbocharging infrastructure”, there is

“Essential sewage … ‘Better Connecting Dublin and Belfast’ strategy … A5/A6 roads”,


et cetera. These may be regarded as devolved matters, but what is the financial commitment from the UK Government to allow the devolved institutions to deliver them? I am not trying to impact on the decision-makers; I am simply laying out what the Government have said are important for them to support to enable the devolved institution—the Northern Ireland Assembly or whoever controls it—to deliver these things for the benefit of the people of Northern Ireland.

New Decade, New Approach talks about implementing the Stormont House agreement. For the benefit of time, we will move over that and assume it has gone or will at least be a debate for another day on legacy issues. That has been replaced.

It goes on to talk about

“Addressing Northern Ireland’s unique circumstances”.


I am sorry to take up this time, if the Committee does not mind. It is Committee and it allows this level of detail. This is particularly important, as the document was signed by all the major parties. I accept the point made by the Ulster Unionists that they received it late, but it was generally supported by all five major parties of Northern Ireland and accepted as a way of restoring the Northern Ireland Assembly. That is massive. To be fair to the Secretary of State, it was an achievement on his part, as it was for the five parties and the Irish Government.

We have all these different things, such as

“Additional funding to support mental health”.


The people of Northern Ireland will be interested in

“Additional funding for tackling paramilitarism”.


I read that there is a commitment to fund 7,500 police. Does the Minister know how many police officers there are in Northern Ireland? The latest number I could find was 6,900, so they are 600 short. Are the Government committed to funding that 600? That is in the financial commitment. The people of Northern Ireland would be interested to know whether the 600 will be funded to provide the additional police laid out in New Decade, New Approach.

It mentions

“A Culture and Community fund”


and

“Funding to support … the 2021 centenary and related projects”.


I accept that the pandemic has made some of this difficult. Again, I know that “languages and broadcasting” are difficult, but again it is laid out here. There is support for all that. They are huge spending commitments that the UK Government have made to the people of Northern Ireland. As laid out in my amendment, there should be a report to this Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly or the people of Northern Ireland to explain what has happened to this. Whether that is in three months, six months, a year or 18 months is irrelevant. What has happened to these commitments? It is no wonder people find themselves a little despairing or unsure of reality sometimes. What does this mean? Is it worth the paper it is written on? Of course it is, but how is it being delivered, what is going to happen and when?

Then it talks about the

“Conditions of the UK Government Financial Commitments in Support of a Restored Northern Ireland Executive”


and an “independent Fiscal Council”. People will tell me whether we have that or not, but I am interested.

“There will be regular (quarterly) reviews of UK Government funding provided under this agreement, and implementation of all agreements via a UK Government-NI Executive Joint Board.”


The Minister will tell me that that has been set up and has met quarterly. It will be interesting if it has, but perhaps the Minister will confirm whether that is going to meet, has met or is just something written on the paper.

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[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, for these amendments. If I may, I will on this occasion take them in reverse order.

As I mentioned at Second Reading, the Bill follows the standard practice of allowing two months before provisions come into effect following Royal Assent. However, I have listened to the arguments and I am very happy to repeat the assurance I gave the noble Baroness at Second Reading that we will go away and return to this matter on Report. She has my assurance on that point.

I turn to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. He raised a number of important points about the implementation of the agreement. He reeled off, if I may say, quite a long list from Annex A—

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

Not all of it.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

No, not all of it, but I hope he will forgive me if I do not reply in detail to each and every point. I will look at Hansard and write to him on any that I have missed.

The noble Lord was particularly focused on a number of the financial commitments. I can tell him that, thus far, the Government have allocated over £700 million of the £2 billion funding in New Decade, New Approach, which had the impact of ending the nurses’ pay dispute he referred to in his comments. As I mentioned at Second Reading, we have already contributed towards the creation of the Northern Ireland graduate-entry medical school in Londonderry and supplemented the new deal for Northern Ireland with £400 million to promote Northern Ireland as a cybersecurity hub. The noble Lord referred to the fiscal council, which has been established. It was originally a commitment in the fresh start agreement, which was repeated in New Decade, New Approach. That has been established.

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I will say that, sensing the mood of the Committee and having taken on board a number of the comments and sentiments expressed, if the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment, I will commit to taking this issue away and exploring it further.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I am very grateful for the Minister’s response, particularly the last sentence or two. I think all noble Lords in the Committee today will be pleased with the response from the Minister and his commitment to do that; it would be very helpful and I thank him sincerely. The whole purpose of the amendment was clearly not to divide the House.

I am not as well versed as I used to be in issues with regard to Northern Ireland, Ireland, British-Irish relations and some of the broader issues, but I suspect—in fact I took a straw poll of the people around me—that much of what the Minister was saying was news to people, frankly, and a lot of it is really good news. As I keep saying, the constitutional debates will happen and are difficult, but some of the other matters are not as difficult. I was quite inspired by the New Decade, New Approach agreement, which, as I say, many people in this Room will have been privy to negotiating. It is an inspirational document, balancing all the different competing claims and narratives.

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but finish with this point. I noted that the Minister said that, so far, £700 million had been spent on the commitments in New Decade, New Approach and that £2 billion was the total commitment.

Amendment 8 withdrawn.