Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Tulip Siddiq and Nigel Huddleston

Committee stage
Tuesday 21st May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Tulip Siddiq]

We believe that individuals or companies generating wealth in the UK should pay their fair share, so we are in complete support of the aims of this clause. However, we have heard concerns raised by the Chartered Institute of Taxation about the effectiveness of the Government’s proposals and I would be interested to hear the Minister’s views on those concerns.

First, the Chartered Institute of Taxation has argued that the clause adds complexity to the tax system, because it uses income tax legislation to tackle perceived corporate tax avoidance. Clause 22 extends provision within the Income Tax Act 2007 to cover avoidance of any tax through transfer made by a closely held company. Could the Minister explain the thinking behind the Government’s decision to tackle corporate tax avoidance in this way, rather than through the corporate tax regime? Does he agree with the Chartered Institute of Taxation that it could add unnecessary complication to the tax system?

Secondly, the Chartered Institute of Taxation made the case that the Government’s position that any participator in a company is deemed to be involved in a company’s decision to move assets abroad is unfair. For example, a company may have several minority shareholders who have no participation in the running of the company. What is the Minister’s assessment of the case made by the Chartered Institute of Taxation that only major shareholders, directors and shadow directors should be assumed to be involved for the purposes of this legislation?

Thirdly, the Chartered Institute of Taxation has warned that these changes could damage the UK’s international competitiveness, because the test as set out in the legislation leaves too much discretion to HMRC, which compounds uncertainty for businesses. For example, a UK holding company that provides a loan to an offshore subsidiary that in turn generates profits could be caught by the changes, despite that being a routine transaction. The Chartered Institute of Taxation argues that that could lead to an increased number of inquiries and appeals to the tax tribunals and could seriously undermine the UK’s attractiveness for international headquarters.

What does the Minister make of those concerns? What steps will HMRC take to ensure that involvement and objection defences under the clause are not ambiguous or uncertain, and to ensure that those charges do not prove to be increased excessively for taxpayers?

My final point is that the changes introduced by clause 22 appear to be retrospective, as no date is specified whereafter transactions are affected; the clause says only that income arising after April 2024 is caught by the regime. Can the Minister confirm whether that is the case? Will commercial transactions that were carried out many years ago, but from which income arises after April 2024, still be caught?

[Nigel Huddleston]

I thank the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn for her comments. We very much appreciate the input that we have received from stakeholders and interested parties, including the Chartered Institute of Taxation. Some of those points are about broader issues around the TOAA regime, rather than specific to this legislation, but we do hear what they have to say.

I will respond to the hon. Lady’s points about the changes that apply to companies when the TOAA regime is primarily about individuals. The transfer of assets abroad legislation is an anti-avoidance provision aimed at preventing individuals from avoiding a tax charge by transferring an asset to a person overseas while still being able to enjoy the income of that asset in some way. It would be easy for an individual to sidestep the legislation by transferring such an asset to a company that they controlled before the company then made the transfer abroad. The legislative changes are aimed at preventing that situation and ensuring that the TOAA rules are applied as intended.

On the point about the legislation being broad, let us not forget that it is being brought in in response to the Supreme Court judgment; we are trying to make sure that it acts as intended throughout. The intention of the legislation is to put the situation involving transfers by companies back to how HMRC considered it operated before the Supreme Court decision. The transfer of assets abroad legislation aims to stop that tax avoidance.

It is also important to remember that the legislation does not bring a tax charge when the transfer is for genuine commercial reasons or when tax avoidance was not the purpose of the transfer. The new legislation gives individuals the opportunity to exclude themselves from the tax charge if certain conditions are met. We respectfully disagree with the CIOT on some of those conditions. We have outlined some of those, and HMRC will produce further guidance in due course.

On the retroactive criticism, the clause has retroactive effect because if it did not, it would have allowed individuals to abuse the loophole between the date of the Fisher judgment and the enactment of the legislation. Again, we do not believe that there will be a significant increase in complexity. The purpose behind the legislation is primarily to ensure that the regime acts as intended.

I will not go into the weeds on HMRC’s determination process—further guidance will be given—but HMRC will review the facts of a case to judge whether someone is directly or indirectly involved in the decision making of a company. It will accept evidence that shows whether someone is involved or not. However, any arrangements that are put in place purely to be used as evidence that an individual is not involved in the decision making of a company will be disregarded and a charge will be levied if the other conditions are met. As I said, HMRC will issue guidance on how it will approach the matter in due course. Decisions will be made based on the facts of each individual case.

I hope that I have given the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn some assurance. We appreciate the concerns that have raised by key stakeholders, and further information and guidance will be forthcoming.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 22 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 23

Minor VAT amendments

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Clause 23 makes some minor, technical changes to VAT legislation relating to the DIY house builders’ scheme and VAT credit in the penalty reform regime, and allows for reform of the VAT terminal markets order. I will speak briefly about each measure in turn.

The DIY house builders’ scheme allows individuals building their own home, or converting a non-residential building to their own home, to recover VAT incurred on the cost. That puts individual house builders in the same position as property developers, who are able to sell new build residential property at a zero rate and recover the VAT they incur in the process of constructing new build properties. The scheme was simplified and made digital in December last year, which has significantly reduced the time taken for claims to be paid. Under the new process, only essential details are required on the claim form, eliminating the need for claimants to submit certain evidential documents up front. Based on the information provided on the claim form, HMRC can then request evidential documents to verify the claim.

Clause 23(1) will give HMRC a clear power under the DIY house builders’ scheme to require further evidential documentation, such as invoices, from the person who submitted a claim under the scheme. That will assist HMRC in verifying claims.

Clause 23(3) is a minor update to the existing powers that allow for reform of the VAT terminal markets order. The order reduces VAT administration burdens on commodities traded on specified markets, so the power will allow for simplifications to support businesses trading those commodities. The Government previously announced their intention to reform the order to reflect current market practices and to keep pace with market changes, such as trades in new products, including carbon credits. This clause takes that commitment forward.

Finally, subsections (4) and (5) make changes to ensure that VAT interest rules operate as intended. For most major taxes, the Finance Act 2009 requires HMRC to pay interest on amounts due from HMRC to taxpayers, and to charge interest on late payments to HMRC. Historically, that regime did not apply to VAT, which had its own interest rules. Harmonising the rules on interest was an important step in delivering the Government’s ambition to build a trusted, modern tax administration system. Changes made by the Finance Act 2021 brought VAT interest in line with taxes such as income tax from 1 January last year. In implementing the new interest rules for VAT, HMRC has discovered some minor defects in the legislation, which without correction would force it to act in a way that conflicts with policy intent.

Clause 23 will therefore make two changes to the interest rules. The first will address the situation in which interest ought to be repaid to HMRC because, following an assessment or amendment that reduces the amount of VAT credit, the repayment interest due is also reduced. It was always intended that HMRC could recover all these amounts through a simple automated process that does not add to burdens for taxpayers and HMRC alike. The IT system can already operate, but the legislation, mistakenly, does not always allow that automated recovery. The change will ensure that HMRC can do so in all cases instead of needing a different, onerous process for a minority of cases that the original legislation did not cover.

The second change will make sure that VAT-registered businesses are always protected by a provision that creates a fairer basis for the calculation of interest where they owed money to HMRC over the same time that HMRC owed money to them. The original legislation failed to extend that safeguard to all scenarios in which that could happen with VAT, undermining the fairness of the interest regime. To ensure that all VAT-registered businesses are treated equally, the changes will be given backdated effect to 1 January 2023, when the interest rules were introduced for VAT.

Clause 23 makes some small changes to ensure that policy works as intended and to further Government commitments on reforming the VAT terminal markets order. I commend it to the Committee.

[Tulip Siddiq]

The Opposition support the changes that will assist with compliance checks by making online applications equivalent to paper applications. Has the Minister considered adding the online application as a service to the agent services accounts so that an agent can prepare and submit the claim on behalf of their client?

We also support the provisions for modifying the application of VAT for terminal markets, as that will allow for further reforms such as bringing trades in carbon credits within the scope of the Value Added Tax (Terminal Markets) Order. We feel that is a vital and necessary step in developing this important market.

We support the changes to legislation that governs the interaction between late payment interest and repayment interest for VAT. Has the Minister given any thought to reinstating HMRC’s ability not to charge interest on VAT errors where the supplier did not charge VAT, with no loss to the Exchequer because the customer could claim in full?

--- Later in debate ---

[Nigel Huddleston]

Clause 24 makes further provision for collective money purchase arrangements. CMP arrangements are a new type of pension that have the benefit of pooling individuals’ pension pots to provide better incomes in retirement while limiting the liability of employers.

These changes will enable the Government to authorise the transfer of benefits to a member’s beneficiaries, such as their dependants, in the unlikely event that a member dies while a CMP arrangement is being wound up. That will ensure that such transfers do not incur an unauthorised payment charge of 55%, and it will deliver the Government’s commitment to provide the correct tax outcome for CMP arrangements.

The Pension Schemes Act 2021 introduced legislation to allow collective money purchase schemes to operate in the United Kingdom. This measure authorises the transfer of survivor benefits in collective money purchase pension schemes. This will ensure that Royal Mail Group, the first provider of a collective money purchase pension scheme, can launch its scheme as planned.

It is a complicated title, but with a simple purpose. As a result of these changes, an employee of Royal Mail will be able to sign on to a CMP, with all the benefits, without the risk of transferring survivor benefits being put through as unauthorised transactions. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.

[Tulip Siddiq]

This clause is so uncontroversial that we give it our full support. For the first time, I agree with everything the Minister has said, and the Committee will be happy to know that I have no further questions for him.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 24 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 25

Interpretation

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Nigel Huddleston]

I will be very brief, because the clause is fairly straightforward. It provides for the use of abbreviations for a variety of Acts. For example, it provides for the use of “CTA 2009” as an abbreviation for the Corporation Tax Act 2009. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 25 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 26

Short title

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Finance (No. 2) Bill (Except clauses 1 to 4, 12 and 13, and 19)

Debate between Tulip Siddiq and Nigel Huddleston

Tuesday 21st May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Tulip Siddiq]

We believe that individuals or companies generating wealth in the UK should pay their fair share, so we are in complete support of the aims of this clause. However, we have heard concerns raised by the Chartered Institute of Taxation about the effectiveness of the Government’s proposals and I would be interested to hear the Minister’s views on those concerns.

First, the Chartered Institute of Taxation has argued that the clause adds complexity to the tax system, because it uses income tax legislation to tackle perceived corporate tax avoidance. Clause 22 extends provision within the Income Tax Act 2007 to cover avoidance of any tax through transfer made by a closely held company. Could the Minister explain the thinking behind the Government’s decision to tackle corporate tax avoidance in this way, rather than through the corporate tax regime? Does he agree with the Chartered Institute of Taxation that it could add unnecessary complication to the tax system?

Secondly, the Chartered Institute of Taxation made the case that the Government’s position that any participator in a company is deemed to be involved in a company’s decision to move assets abroad is unfair. For example, a company may have several minority shareholders who have no participation in the running of the company. What is the Minister’s assessment of the case made by the Chartered Institute of Taxation that only major shareholders, directors and shadow directors should be assumed to be involved for the purposes of this legislation?

Thirdly, the Chartered Institute of Taxation has warned that these changes could damage the UK’s international competitiveness, because the test as set out in the legislation leaves too much discretion to HMRC, which compounds uncertainty for businesses. For example, a UK holding company that provides a loan to an offshore subsidiary that in turn generates profits could be caught by the changes, despite that being a routine transaction. The Chartered Institute of Taxation argues that that could lead to an increased number of inquiries and appeals to the tax tribunals and could seriously undermine the UK’s attractiveness for international headquarters.

What does the Minister make of those concerns? What steps will HMRC take to ensure that involvement and objection defences under the clause are not ambiguous or uncertain, and to ensure that those charges do not prove to be increased excessively for taxpayers?

My final point is that the changes introduced by clause 22 appear to be retrospective, as no date is specified whereafter transactions are affected; the clause says only that income arising after April 2024 is caught by the regime. Can the Minister confirm whether that is the case? Will commercial transactions that were carried out many years ago, but from which income arises after April 2024, still be caught?

[Nigel Huddleston]

I thank the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn for her comments. We very much appreciate the input that we have received from stakeholders and interested parties, including the Chartered Institute of Taxation. Some of those points are about broader issues around the TOAA regime, rather than specific to this legislation, but we do hear what they have to say.

I will respond to the hon. Lady’s points about the changes that apply to companies when the TOAA regime is primarily about individuals. The transfer of assets abroad legislation is an anti-avoidance provision aimed at preventing individuals from avoiding a tax charge by transferring an asset to a person overseas while still being able to enjoy the income of that asset in some way. It would be easy for an individual to sidestep the legislation by transferring such an asset to a company that they controlled before the company then made the transfer abroad. The legislative changes are aimed at preventing that situation and ensuring that the TOAA rules are applied as intended.

On the point about the legislation being broad, let us not forget that it is being brought in in response to the Supreme Court judgment; we are trying to make sure that it acts as intended throughout. The intention of the legislation is to put the situation involving transfers by companies back to how HMRC considered it operated before the Supreme Court decision. The transfer of assets abroad legislation aims to stop that tax avoidance.

It is also important to remember that the legislation does not bring a tax charge when the transfer is for genuine commercial reasons or when tax avoidance was not the purpose of the transfer. The new legislation gives individuals the opportunity to exclude themselves from the tax charge if certain conditions are met. We respectfully disagree with the CIOT on some of those conditions. We have outlined some of those, and HMRC will produce further guidance in due course.

On the retroactive criticism, the clause has retroactive effect because if it did not, it would have allowed individuals to abuse the loophole between the date of the Fisher judgment and the enactment of the legislation. Again, we do not believe that there will be a significant increase in complexity. The purpose behind the legislation is primarily to ensure that the regime acts as intended.

I will not go into the weeds on HMRC’s determination process—further guidance will be given—but HMRC will review the facts of a case to judge whether someone is directly or indirectly involved in the decision making of a company. It will accept evidence that shows whether someone is involved or not. However, any arrangements that are put in place purely to be used as evidence that an individual is not involved in the decision making of a company will be disregarded and a charge will be levied if the other conditions are met. As I said, HMRC will issue guidance on how it will approach the matter in due course. Decisions will be made based on the facts of each individual case.

I hope that I have given the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn some assurance. We appreciate the concerns that have raised by key stakeholders, and further information and guidance will be forthcoming.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 22 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 23

Minor VAT amendments

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Clause 23 makes some minor, technical changes to VAT legislation relating to the DIY house builders’ scheme and VAT credit in the penalty reform regime, and allows for reform of the VAT terminal markets order. I will speak briefly about each measure in turn.

The DIY house builders’ scheme allows individuals building their own home, or converting a non-residential building to their own home, to recover VAT incurred on the cost. That puts individual house builders in the same position as property developers, who are able to sell new build residential property at a zero rate and recover the VAT they incur in the process of constructing new build properties. The scheme was simplified and made digital in December last year, which has significantly reduced the time taken for claims to be paid. Under the new process, only essential details are required on the claim form, eliminating the need for claimants to submit certain evidential documents up front. Based on the information provided on the claim form, HMRC can then request evidential documents to verify the claim.

Clause 23(1) will give HMRC a clear power under the DIY house builders’ scheme to require further evidential documentation, such as invoices, from the person who submitted a claim under the scheme. That will assist HMRC in verifying claims.

Clause 23(3) is a minor update to the existing powers that allow for reform of the VAT terminal markets order. The order reduces VAT administration burdens on commodities traded on specified markets, so the power will allow for simplifications to support businesses trading those commodities. The Government previously announced their intention to reform the order to reflect current market practices and to keep pace with market changes, such as trades in new products, including carbon credits. This clause takes that commitment forward.

Finally, subsections (4) and (5) make changes to ensure that VAT interest rules operate as intended. For most major taxes, the Finance Act 2009 requires HMRC to pay interest on amounts due from HMRC to taxpayers, and to charge interest on late payments to HMRC. Historically, that regime did not apply to VAT, which had its own interest rules. Harmonising the rules on interest was an important step in delivering the Government’s ambition to build a trusted, modern tax administration system. Changes made by the Finance Act 2021 brought VAT interest in line with taxes such as income tax from 1 January last year. In implementing the new interest rules for VAT, HMRC has discovered some minor defects in the legislation, which without correction would force it to act in a way that conflicts with policy intent.

Clause 23 will therefore make two changes to the interest rules. The first will address the situation in which interest ought to be repaid to HMRC because, following an assessment or amendment that reduces the amount of VAT credit, the repayment interest due is also reduced. It was always intended that HMRC could recover all these amounts through a simple automated process that does not add to burdens for taxpayers and HMRC alike. The IT system can already operate, but the legislation, mistakenly, does not always allow that automated recovery. The change will ensure that HMRC can do so in all cases instead of needing a different, onerous process for a minority of cases that the original legislation did not cover.

The second change will make sure that VAT-registered businesses are always protected by a provision that creates a fairer basis for the calculation of interest where they owed money to HMRC over the same time that HMRC owed money to them. The original legislation failed to extend that safeguard to all scenarios in which that could happen with VAT, undermining the fairness of the interest regime. To ensure that all VAT-registered businesses are treated equally, the changes will be given backdated effect to 1 January 2023, when the interest rules were introduced for VAT.

Clause 23 makes some small changes to ensure that policy works as intended and to further Government commitments on reforming the VAT terminal markets order. I commend it to the Committee.

[Tulip Siddiq]

The Opposition support the changes that will assist with compliance checks by making online applications equivalent to paper applications. Has the Minister considered adding the online application as a service to the agent services accounts so that an agent can prepare and submit the claim on behalf of their client?

We also support the provisions for modifying the application of VAT for terminal markets, as that will allow for further reforms such as bringing trades in carbon credits within the scope of the Value Added Tax (Terminal Markets) Order. We feel that is a vital and necessary step in developing this important market.

We support the changes to legislation that governs the interaction between late payment interest and repayment interest for VAT. Has the Minister given any thought to reinstating HMRC’s ability not to charge interest on VAT errors where the supplier did not charge VAT, with no loss to the Exchequer because the customer could claim in full?

--- Later in debate ---

[Nigel Huddleston]

Clause 24 makes further provision for collective money purchase arrangements. CMP arrangements are a new type of pension that have the benefit of pooling individuals’ pension pots to provide better incomes in retirement while limiting the liability of employers.

These changes will enable the Government to authorise the transfer of benefits to a member’s beneficiaries, such as their dependants, in the unlikely event that a member dies while a CMP arrangement is being wound up. That will ensure that such transfers do not incur an unauthorised payment charge of 55%, and it will deliver the Government’s commitment to provide the correct tax outcome for CMP arrangements.

The Pension Schemes Act 2021 introduced legislation to allow collective money purchase schemes to operate in the United Kingdom. This measure authorises the transfer of survivor benefits in collective money purchase pension schemes. This will ensure that Royal Mail Group, the first provider of a collective money purchase pension scheme, can launch its scheme as planned.

It is a complicated title, but with a simple purpose. As a result of these changes, an employee of Royal Mail will be able to sign on to a CMP, with all the benefits, without the risk of transferring survivor benefits being put through as unauthorised transactions. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.

[Tulip Siddiq]

This clause is so uncontroversial that we give it our full support. For the first time, I agree with everything the Minister has said, and the Committee will be happy to know that I have no further questions for him.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 24 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 25

Interpretation

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Nigel Huddleston]

I will be very brief, because the clause is fairly straightforward. It provides for the use of abbreviations for a variety of Acts. For example, it provides for the use of “CTA 2009” as an abbreviation for the Corporation Tax Act 2009. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 25 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 26

Short title

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Offensive Weapons Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Tulip Siddiq and Nigel Huddleston

Tuesday 17th July 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q What would that mean?

Mark Groothuis: You can be fined, although I don’t know the scale of the fines off the top of my head.

Assistant Chief Constable Orford: Summary only.

Mark Groothuis: Yes, it is only a summary offence, so it is normally just a fine.

[Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

Q I want to probe a bit further on the use of antique guns. I was quite surprised that anyone can access one. In the Paul Edmunds case, which was very famous, he bought the guns, fitted them with ammunition and then passed them on to criminal gangs. What do you feel about his passing them on to, I think, 50 criminal gangs? Do you think the legislation around that is strong enough, and if not, what can we do?

Detective Chief Superintendent Chilton: We worked with the Law Commission and we provided evidence about the threat from obsolete calibre firearms in criminal hands. The Policing and Crime Act 2017 came into effect last year, and there is now an ongoing piece of work looking at removing certain firearms from the obsolete calibre list if Ministers make that decision. That would make it illegal to hold antique or obsolete calibre firearms that are currently used in crimes, unlike now, when anyone can hold them if they are not a prohibited person.

One outcome of our work with the Law Commission was to recommend the full codification of firearms legislation. Unfortunately, that has not come into effect because the legislation is complex. The definition of antique firearms and parts in the obsolete calibre list were brought in last year under the Policing and Crime Act. We are now waiting for decisions as to what will or will not be removed from that list. That is already in train; we are just waiting for outcomes, which I am told will not come before the summer recess.