Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 7

Debate between Tony Lloyd and Lady Hermon

Monday 30th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd]

I think that, regrettably, things are more complicated than that. I will say to the hon. Gentleman, however, that if the commitment is there to see Stormont back in operation, we will all, like him, do everything we can to support the process. One of the interesting aspects of the report is a recognition that all parties come together in agreement on this important issue. That is a lesson that ought to be taken back: when there is the will to move things on, there is political agreement, even between parties that are otherwise divided.

[Lady Hermon]

Does the hon. Gentleman share my disappointment at the tone and the content of what the Secretary of State has said this afternoon? He has been, rightly, enormously sympathetic to the victims, and has rightly praised Lord Justice Hart for his report—sadly, Lord Justice Hart died before he could see this legislation on the statute book—but my colleagues and I are unanimous in our disappointment that there is no sense of urgency.

The Secretary of State needs to be aware that, under the European convention on human rights, there must be an effective remedy for any breaches of the human rights guaranteed in that convention, and that includes the guarantee that everyone should be free of degrading treatment. The victims of historical institutional abuse were certainly not free of degrading treatment in those homes as children. Will the Secretary of State, when he winds up the debate, show some sense of urgency about getting this legislation on the statute book? All of us here will support him in that tone and in that effort.

[Tony Lloyd]

The hon. Lady has made a powerful point. I share her regret—I suppose that that is the right word—that Lord Justice Hart is not around to see the conclusion of his work, but we should nevertheless pay tribute to it.

This matter is urgent—there can be no doubt about that—and we now look to the Secretary of State to map out for us what kind of timetable is possible and practical in the absence of a Stormont Government. Let me say to him, on behalf of the official Opposition, that this is not the kind of legislation that we would seek to delay. It is not the kind of legislation that we would seek to deliberate on to make life difficult for the Government. In the end, this is about justice: it is about justice for people who suffered, and whose suffering was continued by the failure of all our institutions to recognise their plight. In that context, we will work with the Secretary of State, and we will work across the House of Commons and, no doubt, in the other place, to ensure that if legislation can be introduced at an early stage, it can go through this House.

Let me also say to the Secretary of State that, just as with other legislation that is conditional on the return of Stormont—the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), for example, referred to legislation on abortion—if it is the appropriate way of moving things forward here, we will of course avail the Secretary of State in taking legislation through this Parliament.

I join Northern Ireland Members, but I also join Members throughout the United Kingdom, because the abuse of our young people—whether it took place in England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland—is a stain on our nation. If we can now secure an adequate system of redress that is not simply financial but involves all the other matters in the Hart report, it will serve as a template for the entire United Kingdom. It is something that we should welcome not only across the whole of the House of Commons, but across the whole of this nation of ours.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Tony Lloyd and Lady Hermon

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 8th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd]

I am always very generous to the right hon. Gentleman, because his questions are always interesting, if erroneous. The integration of the economies of the UK—particularly Northern Ireland—and the Irish Republic is massively more sophisticated today than it was all those years back. Creating a smugglers charter would be very dangerous. We know—I say this advisedly—that there are already criminal gangs in Northern Ireland who make their money and control other people on the back of the capacity for the illegal transport of goods, services and people. We should treat this with great care.

I will now try to bring my remarks to a conclusion. I say to the Secretary of State, to the Democratic Unionist party, to Sinn Féin and to the other parties that the cost of no Assembly would be enormous in the event of a no-deal Brexit. Indeed, the cost of no Assembly has already been enormous for individuals in Northern Ireland. In particular, it has been big for the victims of historical institutional abuse, at least 30 of whom have died since Lord Justice Hart produced his report. Some of those victims will be in Westminster on Wednesday, and they deserve resolution of those issues. Those who are already deceased will never see that justice. Because of the dysfunctional education system Northern Ireland, we know that schoolchildren are being denied the quality of education that they need. That cannot be given back to them. But perhaps it is health that we ought to look at most closely.

In Northern Ireland questions last week, the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Nigel Dodds) rightly raised the issue of growing cancer waiting lists. There is a simple equation with cancer: early detection means an increased chance of cure; late detection means an increased chance of death. The lack of reform in health is costing people’s lives. The lack of decision making as a result of no Assembly—because the Government would not move towards an insistence that the Executive should re-form, or towards direct rule—will now be costing lives.

That is exactly what we are debating here tonight. We will support this piece of legislation because it will be necessary to get us through the summer and to give the new Prime Minister, and possibly a new Northern Ireland Secretary, the chance to resolve the way forward. We can support this until October, but to go beyond October would be very dangerous.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. This gives me an opportunity to apologise to the House for being slightly late for the beginning of the debate. We are here today because the talks process has unfortunately not brought forward a functioning Assembly. As we have not had any Members of the Legislative Assembly working in a functioning Assembly for two and half years, will he please join me in calling on the Secretary of State to exercise her power to cut the salaries of the MLAs? It is absolutely outrageous to the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland that, even though they do not have a functioning Assembly, it is still costing the taxpayer an absolute fortune.

[Tony Lloyd]

I am bound to have sympathy with the hon. Lady’s comments. We know that the Secretary of State took those powers, but we are still waiting for them to be seen, and, as in other areas, we need to see action.

We will support the Bill tonight, but the Secretary of State told us in October last year that this was a temporary and undesirable measure that would be needed just once, possibly with an extension, and she has to recognise, as we come here again several months on to refill the bucket at the same well, that we are now running out of patience. The Government are running out of credibility and we do not believe that they have a strategy to move Northern Ireland onwards. We have to do better.

Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Tony Lloyd and Lady Hermon

2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 6th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd]

I am not being generous with my time because we have to tease out these important issues, and we have to get answers to give us some certainty that the scheme is both necessary and sufficient to protect the interests of those who have acted in good faith.

[Lady Hermon]

It is crucial that we tease out the details before we give our approval—if we give our approval—to this Bill. In the wind-up, I would particularly like the Minister to give further detail on what the Secretary of State said about how the Department for the Economy will seek support for affected participants: those who invested in the renewable heat incentive scheme in good faith. She failed to give any details at all about the efforts of the Department for the Economy to get some support for those who will be adversely affected if we approve this Bill. They had a legitimate expectation of the tariffs that would be paid to them for 20 years, so I would like details from the Minister.

[Tony Lloyd]

That is a fair point. There is nothing in this Bill that talks about post-legislative scrutiny. We need some capacity to measure the impact of the legislation after it leaves this House, because it will have an impact. The scheme was a disaster from its inception. That is most certainly true. It is also most certainly true that controlling the overall level of cost is and ought to be a matter of public policy, which is in the interests of people in Great Britain as well as in Northern Ireland. Coming up with legitimate control is not something that divides the House, but we need to make sure that we measure the impact on those affected, and that is simply not there.

Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Tony Lloyd and Lady Hermon

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 9th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. That is one of many issues that will be frozen for as long as no Executive sits.

I can tell the House of my own experience of being a part of recruiting police officers. Recruitment and training matters enormously. The confidence of the Northern Ireland public in the PSNI demands highly and thoroughly trained people coming into the service. It is in that context that the views of the Chief Constable must be taken into account. The Secretary of State must do better than simply saying that it is under consideration. We need decisions, and we need them fast.

[Lady Hermon]

The shadow Secretary of State will be aware that actions speak louder than words. He rightly acknowledges the needs of the PSNI Chief Constable, who made it clear to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee two weeks ago this Wednesday that he needed additional police officers and resources. The hon. Gentleman has colleagues on the Committee. Did he and his party leader take action and write to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland reflecting and supporting the needs and views of the Chief Constable in his request for additional resources? I do not want just to hear words; I want to know that the Labour party took follow-up actions.

[Tony Lloyd]

The hon. Lady’s comments are very helpful. Better than writing, we raised the matter in Northern Ireland questions. I challenged the Secretary of State—I challenge her again today—to recognise the strength of the Chief Constable’s words and demands and to follow words with legitimate action, as the hon. Lady says. That is the right way forward.

We need Government action on a number of other issues raised in the mini-budget debate in March, including the follow-up to the Hart inquiry. The question of historical institutional abuse will not go away, except, sadly, as victims begin to disappear. It cannot be right that victims whose lives were made massively more difficult, and sometimes nearly impossible, have to wait year after year to find resolution to historical abuse. It is important that there is a clear timetable for consultation. I understand the limitations for the civil service, but given the time-sensitive nature of the inquiry for the victims, we need a clear path for the consultation process on the historical institutional abuse inquiry and the future of the Hart inquiry.

That leads me to the question of pensions for victims of the troubles, which is consistently raised. In fact, this is more straightforward for the Secretary of State in that I believe it is possible to fund it through the Westminster purse rather than through the Northern Ireland purse. One way or another, the amounts of money involved—£2 million to £3 million—would be well containable within any budget. Because of the time-sensitive nature of the question—people whose lives were made difficult are growing older and disappearing—we need firm action.

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[Tony Lloyd]

We need a package of action. It is incumbent on political leaders in Northern Ireland to stand up and be counted. Across the piece, politicians like the right hon. Gentleman have a leadership role in saying, “Get back to the Assembly.” There is, of course, a leadership role for the Secretary of State. I cannot rewrite history, by the way. What I would say is that we saw a move towards a successful conclusion and power sharing was reinvoked. We need movement towards the reintroduction of proper power sharing.

[Lady Hermon]

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene again. When the Assembly was suspended in October 2002, under a Labour Government, the suspension provisions were on the statute book. They were repealed at the request, I understand, of Sinn Féin in the St Andrews agreement. Therefore, we are not comparing like with like. We are comparing that situation not with a period of suspension of the Assembly, but with a grey area where the Assembly is simply not functioning but is not suspended.

[Tony Lloyd]

Constitutionally, the hon. Lady is absolutely right. I am not sure, however, that we will make progress by looking to the past. We have to look to the future.

I applaud the Government’s decision to move to the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, which will meet in a couple of weeks’ time. It is important that it does so, and certainly my party will do everything it can to make the process work. It would be helpful to recognise a number of things. The conference is one of the institutions of the Good Friday agreement. It is part of the framework of the agreement, which has not gone away. The two Governments, the Irish Government and the British Government, are co-guarantors of the Good Friday agreement. I hope the Minister will make it clear, at a difficult time between our two nations—it is not simply a question of east-west relations, it is about ensuring progress on the north-south agenda too—that both Governments will show leadership in the expectation that it will be mirrored by leadership from the political parties in Northern Ireland.

It is time for a change. The things that are being held up cannot wait for finger pointing between political parties. The Secretary of State has to show real action in the weeks and months to come. Through the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, she can begin the process of bringing legitimate pressure to bear on all parties. We have to see real progress if we are to begin to deliver for the people of Northern Ireland the change and transformation that is now needed.