Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure
Debate between Tony Baldry and Robert Neill
Sir Tony Baldry
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for making the point—it was made in the other place and I will comment on it later—that this is a measure that has been welcomed by many other faith groups as well. I am also grateful for his kind welcome for the Measure.
At General Synod, the Measure enjoyed overwhelming majorities at final approval in the three Houses of Synod, with 95% in the House of Bishops, 87% in the House of Clergy and 77% in the House of Laity—majorities that I suspect any party or combination of parties in this House would give their eye-teeth for. At the heart of the work and discussions on the new Measure was the ambition to do everything possible to maintain unity in the Church of England. This Measure, along with its accompanying instruments and documents, seeks to give expression to that hope of unity in various ways. It is acknowledged in the five guiding principles in the House of Bishops’ declaration that we live in a wider Christian world, where this development—having women bishops—is not accepted by everyone, and we have committed ourselves to maintain a place, without limited time, for those who are of the traditional viewpoint. These commitments are important because they are at the core of what the Church of England is about and how it sees itself within our national life. In the House of Lords debate last week, the Archbishop of Canterbury observed:
“One of the most moving parts of this process has been listening to those who have been willing to go along with something that they feel passionately and deeply is not the right thing for the church to do…I say again that the Church of England is deeply committed to the flourishing of all those who are part of its life in the grace of God. It is not our intention that any particular group should wither on the vine.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 187.]
Indeed, I think we would all hope that every part of the Church of England can now flourish and thrive.
In the same debate last week, the House of Lords was particularly moved by the speech of the noble Lord Cormack, who many will know was for many years a member of the Ecclesiastical Committee and who describes himself as a traditional Anglican. Lord Cormack said that he could
“say with all certainty that had I been present in York this year I would have approved of the Measure before us this evening. There has been a real attempt to understand the sincerely held peculiarities of those of us who call ourselves traditional Anglicans.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 175.]
As the Archbishop of Canterbury observed a little while ago on “Newsnight”,
“the biggest change in the last 20 months has been the way we treat each other and the way we are learning to treat people we disagree with.”
This Measures thus comes before us this evening with the overwhelming endorsement of every diocese in England and the overwhelming endorsement of every part of General Synod following a process of listening and reconciliation.
Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
My right hon. Friend was kind enough to refer to the noble Lord Cormack. Would he accept that part of the reconciliation has been the generous approach adopted by those of us who would associate ourselves as being within the Catholic tradition, and will he welcome the observations made by Forward in Faith, which represents many of those parishes, and the generous approach by the Roman Catholic Church in England? Will he assure us all that this will in no way undermine the work on greater understanding and dialogue with our Catholic and Orthodox brethren, which is part of the wider scope of Christian understanding that we are seeking to achieve?
Sir Tony Baldry
My hon. Friend makes a good point. In fairness, the Measure has come about because throughout every part of the Church of England, and in tandem with other Churches—as evidenced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) and others—generosity has been shown.
The declaration of the House of Bishops, which accompanies the Measure, sets out five principles of non-discrimination, acceptance of diversity and recognition of difference across the universal and Catholic Church, which is enormously important. When the Measure was considered last week in the House of Lords, it was notable that it attracted support from all quarters, irrespective of whether they were members of the Church of England. As the Labour peer Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall observed, she supported the Measure as
“a representative of the many, many people in this country who are not members of the Church of England, or indeed of any church, but who are none the less, in some curious way, deeply attached to the Church of England. We are people who have grown up in a world in which the ministry of the Church of England has been very important to the social and, indeed, the political fabric of this country.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 177.]
Another Labour peer, Lord Griffiths of Burry Port observed—in a spirit similar to that expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed—that
“as a member and former president of the Methodist Conference, I am determined that it should not simply be Anglican voices that give expression to their delight in this debate; Methodists across the land will rejoice at it.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 171.]
In a short and very moving speech, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, a Cross Bencher, explained that he had been brought up in the Catholic Church, but that what really mattered was love:
“what is important is the degree of love… I enormously welcome women bishops…It is correct that we should also show great love to those who find this difficult.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 181.]
If we pass the Measure today, it will enable the Church to proceed to finalise matters at the General Synod next month. That potentially means that from 17 November, each diocesan bishop vacancy considered by the Crown Nominations Commission and each suffragan bishop vacancy considered by the relevant diocesan bishop will be open to women as to men.
One consequence of the Measure is that it will be possible for women to become Lords Spiritual and to sit in the House of Lords. At present, diocesan bishops are appointed to the House of Lords on the basis of seniority, so getting women bishops into the House of Lords could take some time if the normal system of seniority were simply left to take its course. However, I am glad to be able to report to the House that there has been consultation with all the main parties on the possibility of introducing a short, simple Government Bill to accelerate the arrival of the first woman bishop in the House of Lords, and I hope that such a Bill will be able to be taken through during this Session.
I am also glad to report that, in my experience, there has been solid cross-party support for such a Bill. It will have to be approved by Parliament because it goes to the question of who is summoned to attend Parliament. I should like to thank the First Secretary of State and Leader of the House of Commons and the noble Baroness Stowell, the Leader of the House of Lords, for their help and support with this matter. We all recognise the pressures on parliamentary time, particularly so late in the Parliament, but I very much hope that the Government will be able to find a legislative slot very shortly.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Tony Baldry and Robert Neill
Robert Neill
I suggest that the hon. Gentleman awaits the publication of the details of our national planning policy framework, which will set out the parameters within which all local plans will be drawn up.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
T4. Parish councils are an important part of the structure of local government, but they often feel that they have to take an unfair and disproportionate regulatory burden, the latest of which is that they will all be obliged to employ their parish clerks, with all that entails, such as making national insurance contributions, although many such clerks get only an honorarium, which they could easily declare in their annual personal tax return. Does my right hon. Friend agree?
Communities and Local Government
Debate between Tony Baldry and Robert Neill(13 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Robert Neill
The Localism Bill would create the concept of a neighbourhood plan, which could be incorporated in Birkenhead borough council’s statutory development document—its planning framework, as it is generally called. It would permit residents of Devonshire Park to apply to the local council to be recognised, as I am sure they would be in these circumstances, as a neighbourhood forum for the purposes of producing a neighbourhood plan. That would enable them to set out their vision for the area, which, subject to a referendum and getting support from their fellow residents, the local planning authority would incorporate into its plans, unless there were strategic reasons to the contrary.
That a significant safeguard would enable residents to put in place protection against particular types of development, if they thought they were not sustainable. It would, of course, have to be consistent with national policy that we will be setting out in the national planning policy framework, and with our support for sustainable development. However, it is exactly the sort of vehicle that the right hon. Gentleman and his constituents are seeking. I would be happy to talk to him as the Bill progresses to ensure that he and his constituents are in a position to take advantage of the provisions.
I also hope, of course, owing to the requirement in the Bill for pre-application discussions on any scheme of any significance, that developers themselves will recognise and take heed of the concerns and aspirations of local communities, and adjust their developments accordingly. We are trying to move to a much more collaborative and front-loaded approach to planning, rather than repeat applications and the threat of a decision by appeal at the end. I am happy to keep the right hon. Gentleman informed on progress on those matters.
Let me now go back further than the Disraeli period—to the Plantagenets, as I understand it—and address the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry). I am sure that he was not there at the time, but he has a degree of erudition that clearly indicates that he has gone that far back in researching borough status for Banbury. Those of us who watch “Lark Rise to Candleford” will be well aware of the status of Banbury within Oxfordshire, and not just as the home of Banbury cakes, but as a major town. I understand the sense of where my hon. Friend is coming from, because we as a Government recognise civic pride as a valuable part of the big society. That said, these things are not quite as easy as one might wish. My hon. Friend is a distinguished lawyer, and he is quite right about the constraints on achieving the ambition that he set out.
At the current time it is not possible for any authority, other than a district council, to become a borough. There may be no confusion among the residents of his area about Cherwell district council and a borough of Banbury, but I would not like to guarantee that that would apply everywhere else. [Interruption.] I see the right hon. Member for Birkenhead smiling. One can just imagine the confusion about what was the historic borough of Birkenhead and the borough of Wirral, of which it is now a part. I can see the same thing happening in my constituency, with confusion about the former borough of Bromley and the current borough of Bromley, one of which is much larger than the other, which happens to lie within it. Things are not quite so simple, so we will have to be a careful. We will of course consider the position, but the route suggested is not to create a new type of borough, which could confuse people even more. Rather, if Banbury wishes, it can apply for city status under the jubilee provisions.
Tony Baldry
We do not want to be a city; we want to be a jubilee borough. It is not the same as wanting designation under the Local Government Act 1972; it is something completely different. If, as with cities, Ministers are not willing to pursue that under the royal prerogative, we will have to petition the Privy Council and see where we get. The proposal will not cost anything. I just hope that Ministers will show a little more imagination.
Robert Neill
I am sorry to disappoint my hon. Friend, but he will understand that it is difficult to pluck out one case. Banbury can call itself a town council—it has a mayor, and civic regalia and plate, and it can use its coat of arms. I hope that he will reflect on the matter, if that is not a proportionate solution.
Let me turn to the speech of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) and the pathfinders. It is fair to say that Hull city council will receive more than £23 million this year to take forward projects in east and west Hull. Of course there have had to be reductions, but I am sorry—the hon. Gentleman made the only speech that sounded a vaguely partisan note—but responsibility for that ultimately lies with those who created the difficulty and the deficit that we now have to deal with. There are other options open in housing market renewal areas, and local authorities can continue to apply to the regional growth fund. There is also the new homes bonus and the new affordable rent programme, including new empty home funding, so there are other options available. Indeed, I note that Hull is working on a local enterprise partnership, which I believe will also open up real opportunities. We want that taken forward, but that cannot be done under the previous, unsustainable financial position. I understand the difficulties, but Hull is being imaginative, and the local enterprise partnerships will offer it real opportunities.
In answer to my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), I say that the Localism Bill is coming forward very soon. Localism will enable neighbourhood plans to have regard to issues such as wind farm development. Our reforms will apply equally to wind farms that are considered under the Town and Country Planning Act 1990, which of course have to be consistent with national policy, as I have said. We are also taking steps on changing planning structures, and if my hon. Friend keeps in touch with me on those matters, I hope that we will be able to discuss how to translate the existing, top-down structures into something more democratic. The Localism Bill’s proposal to abolish the regional spatial strategies will give much greater scope to local authorities such as hers to develop in the right place, and in a way that is appropriate to the context of local communities.
Having dealt with that, may I wish you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and all hon. Members a very happy Christmas. If anyone is short of a present—the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East will be glad to know this—the Department for Communities and Local Government still has some 5,000 branded Office of the Deputy Prime Minister promotional biros available.