Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure

Debate between Tony Baldry and Peter Bottomley

Monday 20th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

One question that has not been raised this evening, but was raised in the House of Lords, where the Archbishop of Canterbury’s answer was delphic, is whether the archbishops will consecrate other bishops when they are physically able to do so or whether they will opt out.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

The Archbishop’s answer was very clear; it was not delphic at all. I commend Lords Hansard to colleagues. He set out the circumstances very clearly. He made it clear that, in the normal course of events, archbishops will consecrate all bishops, but that there will be circumstances when an archbishop is ill or overseas. His point was that there is no great issue about that, and none intended.

In response to the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), I hope that in one, two or three years’ time, we will all wonder what the fuss was about. We will see women bishops in the Church of England in the same light as we now see women vicars, archdeacons and deans doing fantastic work as part of the normal course of ministry.

I thank all hon. Members who have said nice things about my role. It has been a privilege to serve as the Second Church Estates Commissioner, and to serve the Church and this House, and I commend the motion to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered,,

That the Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure (HC 621), passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, be presented to Her Majesty for her Royal Assent in the form in which it was laid before Parliament.

Women’s Contribution to the Ordained Ministry (Church of England)

Debate between Tony Baldry and Peter Bottomley

Thursday 20th March 2014 Westminster Hall

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony Baldry)]

I start by thanking my right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman) for initiating the debate and providing the House with an opportunity to celebrate the contribution over the past 20 years of ordained women clergy to the Church of England. I also thank her for providing me with an opportunity to advise the House on where the Church of England now stands in respect of women bishops, which I shall do later. We are all grateful for the presence and support during the debate of the Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant).

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

If you will allow me, Mrs Brooke, I wish to apologise to the House and to my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald. I meant to rise to catch your eye after she had, and I apologise for jumping up when I did. If she had spoken, three men and three women would have spoken in the debate, which would have been the perfect balance.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

That is a timely intervention. For anyone reading the debate in Hansard, I should explain that, although I am effectively responding to the debate, I am not a member of the Government. I am by statute appointed by the Crown as Second Church Estates Commissioner, so I am accountable neither to the Government nor to the Archbishop of Canterbury. Indeed, as the Bishop of London pointed out to me shortly after I was appointed, I am, like the Dean of Westminster, accountable only to God and the Queen—that is how he put it. This is not a ministerial response, then, but one I make in my capacity as Second Church Estates Commissioner.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden was absolutely right to say that the ordination of women has unleashed an appetite in other women to come forward for ordination. She was also right to set out some of the many qualitative contributions that women have made to ordained ministry and, indeed, the pivotal role of many women clergy. We were also fortunate this afternoon to have heard some excellent and helpful speeches from the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) and the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), all of whom are members of the Ecclesiastical Committee, the Committee of both Houses that considers Church of England Measures when they come to Parliament—as indeed is my right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden.

The right hon. Member for Exeter was absolutely right in making clear the urgency and effectiveness with which the Archbishop of Canterbury grasped the issue of making progress towards sorting out the General Synod on the issue of women bishops after its very unhappy vote. The Archbishop clearly recognised that there was a need to get a grip on that issue and get a grip he did.

I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman is going back to Exeter this weekend, and I hope he takes back the good news from yesterday’s Budget that, between all of us, we were able to secure from the Chancellor £20 million towards repair of cathedrals. If I may say so, that indicates that the Church of England is taken seriously by Government. There is a recognition that it is sometimes difficult to raise money to repair the electrics, or the roof or guttering. That fund is meant to be put towards such problems and will be welcome news, I hope, to cathedral cities such as Exeter.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and Peter Bottomley

Thursday 24th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sir Tony Baldry]

That will depend largely on the timetable set out in the Bill, and my hon. Friend gives me the opportunity to clarify one important point. The Church of England is not asking for any special treatment or protection under this legislation; the issue is simply that the Bill should be drafted to ensure that the Church of England has the same freedoms as all other Churches and denominations to decide these matters for itself, and that, of course, must reflect the unique legal position of the Church of England.

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

Speaking as someone who had a heterosexual marriage celebrated and registered in church, I hope that the Church Commissioners will explain to Colin Hart, the self-appointed campaign director of the so-called Coalition for Marriage, that having unity and diversity is a good idea, and that nobody in the Church of England ought to be worried about same-sex couples having the same opportunities of marrying as those of the opposite sex.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

These are issues that we will each have to address on a free vote on the Bill’s Second Reading, which I understand will take place soon. It may be for the convenience of the House if I give a brief summary of the submissions made by both archbishops in response to the Government’s earlier consultation, so that there is no ambiguity about the Church of England’s position. In their summary, the two archbishops said:

“The Church of England cannot support the proposal to enable ‘all couples, regardless of their gender, to have a civil marriage ceremony.’ Such a move would alter the intrinsic nature of marriage as the union of a man and a woman, as enshrined in human institutions throughout history…To change the nature of marriage for everyone will be divisive and deliver no obvious legal gains given the rights already conferred by civil partnerships. We also believe that imposing for essentially ideological reasons a new meaning on a term as familiar and fundamental as marriage would be deeply unwise.”

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and Peter Bottomley

Thursday 6th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I am quite sure that the review that is taking place into the way people are elected to General Synod will try to ensure the greatest opportunity for people in the Church to have a vote and feel that they are represented. Parliament, for example, decided long ago that all of us—everyone in every parish—have a vote in elections for church wardens. One would think that at the very least in elections to General Synod everyone on a church electoral roll should have a vote.

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

I stand as someone who failed twice to get elected to Synod—for Southwark—for being too right wing, and I could not do it in London for being too left wing. Should we not recognise that most of the members of Laity at Synod voted for women bishops, and should we not let women be ordained as bishops and trust the bishops to make arrangements in their diocese that are suitable?

Women in the Church of England

Debate between Tony Baldry and Peter Bottomley

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)]

I hope that it will be of some help to the House if I am allowed to make a contribution in my capacity as the Second Church Estates Commissioner. If I read this debate correctly, it will not miss the point. The debate, which was introduced excellently by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), has had contributions from an avowed atheist, the churchwarden of St Margaret’s and a resolute reactionary, and they all supported the Measure to enable women to become bishops in the Church of England and want it passed as soon as possible.

We have a Church of England that is subject to parliamentary statute, and has been ever since the first Act of Supremacy, when we broke with Rome. However, in 1919, Parliament decided that the Church of England should have its own legislature, the Church Assembly then and the General Synod now.

As the hon. Lady pointed out, the General Synod is made up of three houses: the House of Bishops, the House of Clergy and the House of Laity. Resolutions from the General Synod—Measures—have to come to Parliament.

May I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) that I hope that the General Synod will agree to adopt this Measure in July? In anticipation of that, I have met Lord Lloyd, the Chair of the Ecclesiastical Committee, which is made up of a number of Members of this House and a number of Members of the House of Lords, to discuss the Committee meeting in October to consider and approve the Measure.

Leaving nothing to chance, I have already had discussions with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House of Commons. Using the precedent of what happened in respect of the Measures for ordaining women as deacons and priests, it is deemed to be appropriate to consider this Measure on the Floor of the House, rather than upstairs in Committee. The understanding that I have reached with the Leader of the House is that we will set aside half a day—we hope, some time in November—to approve the Measure in this House. It has to be approved separately in the House of Lords, and I hope that it will do similarly. If the Measure is approved by General Synod in July, it is my ambition to do everything possible to have it pass all its legislative stages before the end of this year. We would therefore hope to see the first women bishops appointed as early as 2014. I agree with the comments made by my hon. Friends the Members for Worthing West and for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale) that that would be significant in terms of the timetable relating to reform of the House of Lords.

The other day, the Queen was at Lambeth palace to meet faith representatives, and at the conclusion of her visit she made a short but very powerful speech. With the leave of the House, I will just quote two paragraphs from that speech. Her Majesty said:

“Our religions provide critical guidance for the way we live our lives and for the way in which we treat each other. Many of the values and ideas we take for granted in this and other countries originate in the ancient wisdom of our traditions. Even the concept of a Jubilee is rooted in the Bible… We should remind ourselves of the significant position of the Church of England in our nation’s life. The concept of our established Church is occasionally misunderstood and, I believe, commonly under-appreciated. Its role is not to defend Anglicanism to the exclusion of other religions. Instead, the Church has a duty to protect the free practice of all faiths in this country.

It certainly provides an identity and spiritual dimension for its own many adherents. But also, gently and assuredly, the Church of England has created an environment for other faith communities and indeed people of no faith to live freely. Woven into the fabric of this country, the Church has helped to build a better society—more and more in active co-operation for the common good with those of other faiths.”

It is always important to remember that the Church of England is, as Her Majesty pointed out, the established Church and as such it has very specific responsibilities to be a national Church. This year, we celebrate the 350th anniversary of the Book of Common Prayer, but it is worth recalling that the Book of Common Prayer is itself an annexe to the Act of Uniformity. Indeed, later this year, the Parliamentary Archives will display the original Act of Uniformity, with the original Book of Common Prayer, which, as I say, was attached to the Act as an annexe. So Parliament has always had an important role in the life of the Church of England and the Church of England has had a responsibility in our nation’s life to be a national Church.

Regarding the concerns that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North expressed about the Equality Act 2010, it is important to recognise that any Measure from the General Synod must come to both Houses of Parliament to be approved. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for quoting my comments at the General Synod shortly after I was appointed as the Second Church Estates Commissioner in July 2010, when I made it very clear to the General Synod that I did not think there was any prospect of getting through Parliament any Measure that gave the impression that women bishops were second-class bishops. I have made it very clear that if the Church of England is to have bishops, women bishops must be just like male bishops, regarded and respected as male bishops are, and with the same roles, responsibilities and rights.

It is also important to remember that we are dealing with a Church and that, as is set out in the Preface to the Declaration of Assent:

“The Church of England is part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, worshipping the one true God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It professes the faith uniquely revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds, which faith the Church is called upon to proclaim afresh in each generation. Led by the Holy Spirit, it has borne witness to Christian truth in its historic formularies, the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, The Book of Common Prayer, and the Ordering of Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.”

Therefore, the General Synod and the whole Church have been grappling with issues that are of genuine concern—indeed, heartfelt concern—for large numbers of individuals, and the General Synod and the whole Church are absolutely right to have taken time to ensure that those issues are thoroughly debated and resolved. It is a fact that every deanery in every diocese in England has had the opportunity to debate them at length and, as the hon. Lady pointed out in her opening comments, 42 out of 44 of the dioceses have voted firmly in support of the Measure to enable women to become bishops.

I very much hope that, when the House of Bishops considers the resolution from the February Synod, it gives it careful consideration. However, given that a majority of the members of the February Synod voted in favour of women becoming bishops—in other words, they supported those resolutions that enable that prospect to move forward—I would be extremely surprised if the House of Bishops did anything other than to enable the Measure to move forward, and I have every confidence in the good sense and good judgment of the House of Bishops.

When we come to the Church of England’s General Synod in July, I very much hope that even those who have been opposed to women becoming bishops will recognise the overwhelming support within the Church of England for the Measure to go forward. In fact, if 42 out of 44 dioceses have voted in favour of women becoming bishops, it would look very perverse—indeed, it would look ridiculous—if the General Synod in July was to use its convoluted voting mechanisms not to allow that Measure to move forward. Between now and July, I hope that everyone will search their soul and I also hope that, if people are opposed to the Measure, they will recognise that there comes a point when it is necessary to acknowledge that, in the interests and well-being of the Church of England, the Measure must make progress.

We have always wished to continue to be a broad Church, maintaining space for all those who wish to remain within the Church of England. However, there must be a recognition that this issue has been deliberated for a long time and that it has been considered carefully, with everyone in the Church of England having had the opportunity to make a thoughtful and deliberative contribution to the debate, and that—as demonstrated by the votes in the dioceses during the last year—the views of the members of the Church of England are very clear.

I hope, therefore, that by the end of this year Parliament will have passed a Measure that will enable women to become bishops. Of course, although that parliamentary business would be dealt with in Government time, it would not be capable of being whipped business. Consequently, I will look to all those who have urged and exhorted me on this issue during Church Commissioners questions and elsewhere to be in the main Chamber to support the Measure when it comes to the Floor of the House. Wherever that support comes from—whether from atheists or resolved reactionaries—it is very important that the House of Commons demonstrates its support for women bishops. In due course, I hope that I and others here will be able to be at Westminster abbey or St Paul’s cathedral when the archbishops consecrate the first woman bishop.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

We know precisely what my hon. Friend means by that, but it is worth spelling out for the record that there are women bishops in other parts of the Anglican communion.

[Tony Baldry]

There are of course women bishops elsewhere in the Anglican communion. I am glad to say that some of them were present at the February Synod, and I was very glad to be able to entertain two of them, the Bishop of Rhode Island and the Bishop of Nova Scotia, here in the House while they were at General Synod in February. It was interesting to hear them talk about their experiences as women bishops and how quickly they had become fully recognised in their leadership role as bishops within their own provinces, countries and communities. And why not?

As has been said, we now have women in leadership roles throughout the Church of England in every position other than as bishops. There are now as many women as there are men coming forward to be ordained as priests. I am sure that it will be the same in other hon. Members’ constituencies. In my own constituency, the vicar of Banbury is a woman. The vicar of Bicester is a woman. The vicar in my own parish, from whom I take communion each Sunday, is a woman. They are all excellent examples of leadership within the Church, but my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West makes a good and important point. I hope that I will be present when the archbishops consecrate the first woman bishop within the Church of England.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and Peter Bottomley

Thursday 30th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call Mr Ben Bradshaw. He is not here, so I call Sir Peter Bottomley.

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

3. Whether the Church Commissioners were consulted on the choice of Ministers to be invited to contribute to the edition of the New Statesman edited by the Archbishop of Canterbury.

[Tony Baldry]

No.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

May I ask my hon. Friend to thank the archbishop for sending the magazine and his articles to all Members of Parliament? I also recommend, through him, that The Daily Telegraph and the BBC actually read those articles. The archbishop was aware that a reader might say that to give a page to the Work and Pensions Secretary and five pages to an interview with the Foreign Secretary might show too much establishment leaning. The criticism of the archbishop is, as Lucy Winkett put it, new

“like the waves, old like the sea.”

[Tony Baldry]

I shall certainly convey my hon. Friend’s comments to the Archbishop of Canterbury. I will also say to my hon. Friend, who has been in this House for some considerable time, that sometimes what is heard is as important as what is said.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and Peter Bottomley

Tuesday 27th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Tony Baldry]

If the hon. Gentleman reads what I said to the General Synod, he will see that I made it clear that many of us want this legislation to come forward as speedily as possible, but we have to get it right. The reason it comes back here is that we have an established Church, and until such time as Parliament decides that we do not, we will continue to have an established Church.

[Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

I hope my hon. Friend will ask the Synod to recognise that the House welcomed the decision it took to trust women bishops to do the right things, rather than trying to force them into being second-class bishops.

[Tony Baldry]

I thank my hon. Friend for that. I made it clear in York at the General Synod that I did not think I could get through this House any legislation in which there was a scintilla of a suggestion of women bishops in any way being second-class bishops.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and Peter Bottomley

Tuesday 22nd June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Tony Baldry]

The hon. Lady makes a good point. As I said in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), as a society we have to take a decision about how we maintain what is a very important part of our national built heritage. There are 16,000 parish churches throughout this country. English Heritage estimates that it would cost £800 million a year to maintain them properly; at present, we are spending only about £100 million, most of which comes from local communities and congregations.

[Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

7. When the responsibilities of the Second Church Estates Commissioner in respect of this House were last reviewed.

[Tony Baldry]

I am beginning to get to grips with the responsibilities of this post, which was established by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners Act 1850. I would say at this stage that I will try to have the same broad approach to answering questions on behalf of the Church as did my predecessor. I hope that I can be a helpful conduit between the Church and this House, and this House and the Church.

[Peter Bottomley]

My hon. Friend is admirably suited to following the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) in this post. Will he pass back to the Synod the fact that we look forward in this House to having bishops chosen on merit, recognising that sex is not merit and that the Synod can throw out proposals that it does not like?

[Tony Baldry]

As I said in response to an earlier question, it is very important that the General Synod and the Church should hear the voices of this House, and I am sure that they will have heard, and will hear, the voice of my hon. Friend.