High Speed 2

Debate between Tony Baldry and Louise Ellman

Thursday 13th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

That was a touching cameo of the brotherly love between Birmingham and Coventry Labour Members of Parliament. I am sure that if we had the opportunity to attend parliamentary Labour party meetings, we would see it displayed every week.

Time is short, and I do not intend to repeat what I have said in previous debates on High Speed 2. If hon. Members or others are interested, they can find what I have said previously on my website—I am not one of the Twitterati, but I am catching up with websites—at www.tonybaldry.co.uk/tag/hs2. As the House will know, the Transport Committee is undertaking an inquiry on the principles of HS2. I hope that it will pay regard to two points. The first is capacity. It is unclear to me whether the purpose of HS2 is to enable more people from cities such as Manchester and Leeds to travel by rail to London and back, or to allow people to travel faster to London at greater expense. All the statistics show train use increasing. That is probably not surprising, given the ever-increasing cost of petrol. Like other Members, I frequently take long-distance inter-city trains to see family members or, increasingly, as part of my other duties in the House, to visit cathedral cities. Nowadays, irrespective of the time of day at which I travel, the trains are always full, so it strikes me that what is needed on our rail network is greater capacity.

Greater capacity may mean somewhat unglamorous improvements to services that we already use—improvements such as longer trains, extended platforms and improved signalling. Rail campaigners in my constituency argue that if we need a new railway line for capacity, we should

“make the line compatible with existing rolling stock so it can be used to ease congestion on the whole network when required. The stand-alone design, (of HS2), means that if the West Coast mainline gets blocked, for some reason, you will not be able to reroute trains down the new line”.

The second issue that I hope the Select Committee will consider with great care is the business case for HS2. This is obviously a matter of concern to everyone.

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his reference to the work of the Select Committee. It has not yet reported on High Speed 2, so I do not feel that I am in a position to give any conclusions—they are not there yet—but I can confirm that the issues that the Select Committee is considering very carefully have to do with capacity, impact on the economy and environment, and value for money. There are a wide variety of views on all those issues, and the Select Committee is looking at all of them in the round. We will report in due course.

[Tony Baldry]

Of course, and as one of those who argued strongly that the Select Committee should undertake the inquiry, I have absolutely no doubt that the Committee will deal with the issues with great diligence. I am sure that the House looks forward to debating the Committee’s report and the Government’s response to it. I hope that the debate can take place here in the main Chamber, and not in Westminster Hall, which is where such debates are often held.

As the hon. Lady says, clearly one of the issues that the Committee has to look at is the business case. A considerable sum is being spent, and of course the money spent on HS2 will not be available for investment elsewhere in rail infrastructure; £30 billion is a very substantial amount, and we all need to be confident that the business case will stack up. Conservative Members who entered the House when Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister, as I did, always had a very high regard for the advice of the Institute of Economic Affairs. Over the years, it has readily embraced new ideas, so it is sobering that its verdict on HS2 is that

“There is a significant risk that High Speed 2…will become the latest in a long series of government big-project disasters”.

The business case for HS2 appears to be based on a number of assertions, such as people do not work on trains. I hope that the Select Committee will investigate those assertions. I understand that there are suggestions in official documents that the effect of HS2 will be to benefit London and the south, in terms of jobs and growth, rather than cities such as Manchester and Leeds. The contribution of the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) demonstrates that many Members representing inner cities are concerned about the differential regional impacts of HS2. I hope that the Select Committee will call for and examine those papers, as it is in a better position than most of us to challenge and evaluate the evidence on HS2.

High-Speed Rail

Debate between Tony Baldry and Louise Ellman

Thursday 31st March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

We are all agreed that we want the UK economy to grow, and that we want a greater rebalancing of the economy. That means giving more impetus to the regions. We are all agreed that we want to reduce internal aircraft flights so as to reduce carbon emissions. The question for the House is whether spending the same, or even a lesser, amount of money than is proposed for HS2 in other ways would give us the same or better policy outcomes.

The right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) was right to say that the policy was put upon us, fully formed and out of the blue, shortly before the general election. This is the first debate in which the House has had the chance to give intensive scrutiny to this multi-billion pound project. That puts an enormous responsibility on the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) and the Select Committee on Transport; on behalf of the House, they have undertaken to inquire into HS2 and the alternatives. We all need to look to the Select Committee to carry out an independent and objective inquiry. One thing that I have learned in my time in the House is that when both Front-Bench teams are in agreement, the Back Benchers have to start counting the spoons. It is always dangerous when both Front-Bench teams are in agreement.

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

The inquiry being undertaken by the Transport Committee is of a strategic nature. Its terms of reference have been set out, and I would not want there to be any misunderstanding about the scope and nature of the inquiry.

[Tony Baldry]

I understand the exact terms of reference. In holding a strategic inquiry, the hon. Lady and her Committee are doing the House a great service, because the earliest that the House could consider this matter otherwise would be in the hybrid Bill Committee. Such are the curious rules of the House that many of us would not be able to submit evidence to that Committee. This is exactly the time when we need a strategic inquiry into the principles of HS2 and the alternative. As I said, when both Front-Bench teams are in agreement, there is always a danger that things can get overlooked.

Let me explain how it is possible for our country, in its understandable desire to incorporate and embrace what was in the 1960s called the white heat of technology, to get things really badly wrong. More than 20 years ago, my first job in Government as a junior Minister was helping John Wakeham to privatise the electricity industry. Part of my brief was responsibility for nuclear power. We had to consider whether we could incorporate nuclear power within the privatisation. I could not understand why no one had thought of the contingent liabilities of decommissioning the nuclear power stations and the cost of nuclear waste. I will not detain the House, save to say that I went back and looked at the ministerial papers and press cuttings of some 20 or 30 years previously, when nuclear power stations were first being built. No one, either in government or outside, had given any proper consideration to the costs of decommissioning nuclear power stations, or of storing and disposing of nuclear waste.

We are all here representing the taxpayers. I think this is the first debate in Westminster Hall at which Mr Speaker has thought it appropriate to be present. It was also telling that for quite a long time my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) was in his place. Unless I have badly misunderstood the routing of HS2, it does not affect Isle of Wight strategically, either in a nimby way or any other way. He was here, as we all are, representing taxpayers and the national interest. This is a project that will cost billions and billions of pounds. If we get it wrong, we get it seriously wrong. We all have a collective duty to get it right, so far as taxpayers are concerned.

I do not pretend to be a rail engineer. I do not pretend to know or to be able to make a value judgment on the benefits of HS2 versus the benefit of the Atkins or other reports. I hope that the Transport Committee and others will start to give some independent and objective analysis of that. I hope that they will pick up the rather important point made by the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), with a little prompting from me: the scheme could have a detrimental impact on parts of the regions. Birmingham might benefit from the line, but Coventry might not; Leeds might benefit, but Wakefield might lose out. All those things have to be properly assessed.

This is not a debate that can be dealt with in set-piece forums such as this. We are talking about an issue that the country will live with for years and years. It behoves Parliament to get it right, and it behoves us, as Back Benchers, to ensure that the structures of the House, and especially the Select Committee, subject the project to the intellectual rigour and investigation that it needs, so that present taxpayers and future generations get the right answers.