National Health Service (Amended Duties and Powers) Bill

Debate between Tony Baldry and Grahame Morris

Friday 21st November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Tony Baldry]

My hon. and learned Friend makes a very good point. There is confusion about whether we have got new Labour or old Labour. The Labour party has to set out how it would undo the market it created without further top-down reorganisation. It could not do it simply by removing the health rules that manage it. There has been no change on when to tender competitively; the rules on procurement are the same as those used by the previous Government. The Act makes it clear that the Secretary of State remains politically accountable to the NHS. The changes in the Bill would restrict the greater autonomy given to the NHS and inhibit staff from making the innovative changes needed to secure sustainable, high-quality care for patients. In particular, it would tie the hands of clinical leaders on CCGs, which the NHS England five-year forward view says should have more powers, not fewer.

[Grahame M. Morris]

The right hon. Gentleman is engaging in a lengthy filibuster, in my opinion. I served on the Committee for the 2012 Act, and a plethora of organisations pointed out during the passage of that Bill the folly of what the Government were doing. They introduced a lengthy Bill; we spent 40 sittings in Committee; they tabled more than 1,000 amendments to their own Bill; it had 20 different sections; part 3 introduced Monitor. To suggest to the House that that Act introduced no change to the system operated under Labour is—well, it is not disingenuous, but it is not correct. I am not sure what term is best to use.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

During the passage of that Bill, the Labour party and certain organisations, including some trade unions, sought to rewrite history. Interestingly, when Labour introduced things such as the independent treatment centres, the Darzi centres and the 2002 concordat, the trade unions that rallied to support the hon. Gentleman in Committee were totally silent. I do not think it lies in the mouth of those organisations, which did not complain when the Labour party introduced a partnership and a concordat with the independent and voluntary sector when it was in government, now to complain, simply because it is the Conservative party in a coalition Government, that we are somehow “privatising” the NHS. It is simply not true.

Caring Responsibilities

Debate between Tony Baldry and Grahame Morris

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

The whole House owes the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) a great “thank you” for having secured this debate in carers week. As co-chair with Baroness Pitkeathley, who is in the other place, of the all-party group on carers, I am particularly glad to have the opportunity to take part in this debate.

In the US Congress, there is a wonderful device that allows people to read a chunk of their speech into the record. I am beginning to feel that for Westminster Hall debates I should have a standard set of three paragraphs about the budget deficit, which I will put on my website, and that those paragraphs should be read into the record. I say that because I think that it will be very tedious during the course of this Parliament if Labour colleagues simply come to Westminster Hall and say, “Woe is us, the Government are having to make budget reductions”, and I then have to explain, “Well, actually…”

I calculated all the money that the Government give to my district council, county council, the Thames Valley police authority and the health authority in my area. We are spending more in 11 days simply on funding the budget deficit than we are on funding all those services in Oxfordshire. That is just not sustainable. So we all have a collective responsibility to be grown-up about the challenges that the Government have to face on the national finances.

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

We have had this type of discussion before about productivity, deficit reduction and so on. However, is it not the case that the Government have made a firm commitment to protect the most vulnerable people in society and is it not right that Labour Members, who have turned out in numbers for this debate today, should hold the Government to account on that commitment? This issue is about choices and the Government are making a choice here that will affect some of the most vulnerable people in society.

Future of the NHS

Debate between Tony Baldry and Grahame Morris

Monday 9th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

I pay tribute to the thoughtful contribution by the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), who chairs the Select Committee on Health.

I come to this debate as, I believe, one of the longest-standing opponents of the Bill, both as a member of the Health Committee and as a member of the Health and Social Care Bill Committee. As such, I have consistently raised serious concerns about not only some of the detail contained in the Bill but the direction of travel charted by these reforms since they have developed from manifesto to coalition agreement to White Paper, and finally morphed into the Bill itself. I have become accustomed to the protestations and rebuttals of Health Ministers on every issue that I have raised, so I am somewhat sceptical about the listening exercise.

Those issues include the pace and scale of reform, the lack of a credible large-scale pilot to assess the impact of the changes, the conflicts of interest inherent throughout the Bill, as identified in the Channel 4 “Dispatches” TV documentary, and the threat of privatisation by stealth. [Interruption.] Despite the protestations and groans of Government Members, there is nothing in the Bill to rule that out. I can cite some examples, not least in relation to the prison health contract that was recently awarded to Care UK to provide health services for eight prisons in the north-east of England, resulting in 120 NHS staff being displaced and made redundant. There is a clear and present danger of privatisation of the service.

Perhaps the strongest advocate of the Bill, as it stands prior to any changes, has been the Minister of State, Department of Health, the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), who is no longer in his seat, and who was the Lib Dem steward of the Bill in Committee. On 10 March, he said in an interview in The Guardian:

“This is a change that liberals can embrace.”

On 17 November, in the Commons Chamber, he called Labour’s record on the NHS a “failed status quo” and wholeheartedly backed the Tory NHS reforms. This year, we found out that the Department of Health had at that time been trying to suppress an internal Ipsos MORI poll of public satisfaction with the NHS. That is interesting, because the poll shows record levels of public satisfaction. Perhaps even more disturbing are rumours that next year the Department intends to cancel the commissioning of such a survey. Rather than saying that Labour has failed on the NHS, the survey showed the highest ever levels of public satisfaction.

An even bigger supporter of the Bill, until now, has been the Deputy Prime Minister. On 23 January this year, on the “Andrew Marr Show” he was asked by Mr Marr, of the Health and Social Care Bill,

“Was that in the Liberal Democrat manifesto?”

The Deputy Prime Minister responded:

“Actually funnily enough it was. Indeed it was…I agree it’s an ambitious programme of reform—but over time I think it’ll leave patients with the feeling that they are at the centre of it.”

I am slightly perplexed by the hasty posturing and sudden synthetic explosion of anger by senior Liberal Democrats in the coalition, perhaps in the wake of the meltdown following last Thursday’s elections. I take those criticisms with a pinch of salt.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is a member of the Health Committee, so one would expect him to be well informed on these matters. I assume that he reads other reports of the House relating to health. I wonder what he would say about the report of the Public Accounts Committee that was recently published, under the chairmanship of one of his right hon. Friends, which says:

“The trend of falling NHS productivity will have to be reversed if the NHS is to deliver, by 2014-15, savings of up to £20 billion each year for reinvestment in healthcare.”

The PAC found that there were serious problems with productivity—

NHS (Public Satisfaction)

Debate between Tony Baldry and Grahame Morris

Wednesday 30th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Tony Baldry]

The hon. Gentleman, again, makes his own point in his own way. He says, and I understand him, that members of the public are satisfied with the NHS so nothing need change. I am not sure whether he has read the unanimous PAC report that was published only weeks ago, but I remind Members that it says:

“The level of hospital activity has not kept pace with the increased resources as hospitals focused on meeting national targets, but not on improving productivity, and productivity has actually fallen over the last decade…Though the increased money going into the NHS has helped to reduce waiting times, improve facilities, and deliver higher quality care, the Department promised at the same time to improve productivity. It failed and, in future, the Department needs to have a more explicit focus on improving hospital productivity if it is to deliver its ambitious savings targets without healthcare services suffering.”

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is notoriously difficult to measure productivity in crude terms—activity, outcomes and so on—and that the quality of the output, which perhaps reflects the greater investment of resources, is not included in the survey?

[Tony Baldry]

I am sorry to hear the apologia of Opposition Members, who are confronted with concerns about what is happening in the NHS. I commend to the hon. Gentleman the National Audit Office report published on 17 December 2010, “Management of NHS hospital productivity”. The NAO has no difficulty in measuring NHS productivity, and neither does the PAC. Before Opposition Members jump up, they should remember that the Labour party left the NHS with a huge, unpaid overdraft of £60 billion. It is a staggering fact that of the £65 billion of hospital building works carried out in the 13 years of the Labour Government, only £5 billion was paid for. Despite a number of very generous private finance initiative projects, the NHS still has an overdraft and must pay for £60 billion of hospital building works. The previous Government, while they may have put more money into the NHS, saw no improvement in outcomes and have left the NHS with a substantial overdraft.

As the Chair of the Health Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), has observed, even if, as intended, the Government manage to ensure that spending on the NHS is ring-fenced and runs ahead of inflation, the NHS, in the next few years, has to become substantially more efficient in how it uses its assets, and treats and looks after patients—hence the need for reforms. Let us be clear. The reforms are about cutting bureaucracy and improving patient care and have been proposed by the coalition Government to improve the NHS and to ensure that we maintain public satisfaction and support for the NHS. We need to ensure that the Health and Social Care Bill, which is going through Parliament, delivers those reforms in the best possible way.

I have no doubt that Ministers will give proper attention to the report next week of the Health Committee and that, in due course, the Government will have regard to any constructive suggestions from the other place to ensure that the Bill is as clear and effective as possible. In any health system, however, difficult decisions have to be made about how one best utilises finite resources. However much money as a country we commit to the NHS, that money will be finite. Choices will have to be made about how that money is best spent: at one end of the spectrum, about whether and in what circumstances people get treated for varicose veins; and at the other end of the spectrum about when, and how often, major and significant, complex and expensive invasive surgery takes place. It seems to me that it makes extremely good sense for those decisions to be made in a collegiate manner, on behalf of their patients, by GPs. It seems to me to make very good sense to allow GPs, individually and collegiately, to make value judgments about the quality of services being provided by individual hospital providers for their patients.

As the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead made clear when introducing this debate, patients trust their GPs and I see no reason why we should not, collectively, trust GPs to commission the best available services in the NHS. Critics of the reforms have sought to present them as something that they are not. However, as the Prime Minister has made clear on a number of occasions:

“we have ruled out price competition in the NHS.”

He went gone on to make it clear that

“we must avoid cherry-picking by the private sector in the NHS.”—[Official Report, 16 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 292.]