Health and Social Care Bill

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

I start by apologising to the House for making what I suspect may sound like a slightly portentous speech. It is not meant to sound portentous, but if it does I apologise.

Because of the effluxion of time, there are not many former Ministers on the Government Benches are, but there is, irrespective of the topic, an important point that needs to be made in the context of today’s debate. I urge every right hon. and hon. Member, before they vote at the end of this debate, to get a copy of House of Lords Hansard for yesterday’s debate, where this matter was debated. There are, in that Lords Hansard, two speeches that hon. Members would do well to read: those of Lord Wilson of Dinton and Lord Armstrong of Ilminster, both former heads of the civil service.

Lord Wilson was head of the civil service during the time of a Labour Government, and both he and Lord Armstrong made it very clear in their speeches yesterday that to release the risk register would be extremely bad news for the relationship between the civil service and Ministers generally. Irrespective of this issue, irrespective of the topic, if risk registers were to be released, officials would needlessly be politicised and thus be concerned about the advice that they gave to Ministers. Ministers would then find themselves being given verbal advice, fewer people would be involved and that would not help the machinery of government.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Tony Baldry]

May I just make some progress?

[Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Tony Baldry]

I will give way to the right hon. Lady in a moment.

Lord Wilson made it clear in his comments:

“Every day in government, Ministers consider policy issues and depend on the Civil Service for advice. Anyone who has been a Minister understands the private space in which civil servants give their best advice.” —[Official Report, House of Lords, 19 March 2012; Vol. 736, c. 643.]

It seems to me that this debate is really very much about a matter of principle: the relationship between civil servants and Ministers.

I understand the Opposition wishing to make some political points, but many of them, including the right hon. Lady to whom I am about to give way, have recently been Ministers, so I am sure they understand that point, and it does not behove the House, in its desire to make a political point, to seek to undermine a long-standing relationship between Ministers and officials.

[Dame Joan Ruddock]

Why therefore has the strategic health authority in London felt able to publish its risk register? There are 18 areas of risk, and those that were red are, after mitigation factors, still red, so we learn something very important. That is why we should have the risk register under discussion published.

[Tony Baldry]

I understand that point, but they are very different registers. The register to which the right hon. Lady refers is meant to be publicised. The two are of an entirely different nature, and that point has been explained to the House by my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench on a number of occasions.

We are discussing departmental risk registers and the advice that civil servants give to Ministers. All I am saying is that right hon. and hon. colleagues, before they vote, should at least take care to consider the advice of former heads of the civil service on the effect that publication would have on the relationship between civil servants and Ministers.

[John Pugh]

If what the hon. Gentleman says is true, why has the Cabinet Office released the register on civil emergencies and put it on the internet?

--- Later in debate ---

[Tony Baldry]

I can assure my hon. Friend that what I am saying is true. All he has to do is walk a few feet to the Vote Office and pick up a copy of Lords Hansard and read for himself the speeches of Lord Wilson of Dinton and Lord Armstrong of Ilminster. All I am saying to my hon. Friend—

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Tony Baldry]

No.

All I am saying to my hon. Friend is that this is a debate about the relationship between civil servants and Ministers, a relationship that has worked very well and very effectively in this country.

Here we have heads of the civil service advising Parliament that this move, which the Opposition would seek to force upon us, is not in the best interests of the relationship between civil servants and Ministers and is not in the best interests of the good running of government.

[Mr Speaker]

Do I take it that the hon. Gentleman has concluded his speech?

[Tony Baldry]

I have, Mr Speaker, and I hope that I have made my point.