ISIL in Syria

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)]

We all know in our heart of hearts that this debate is not about certainties, but about judgment. I am talking about finely balanced judgment on which the lives of people depend both here and in Syria. What we do know is that defeating Daesh requires strategic action across a number of fronts. We have to take them on ideologically, tackle the causes of their rise, and thwart the grubby financial and trade paths that keep them in business. I accept that military action must be part of the strategy, too.

Last year, when the Yazidis, Christians, Muslims and others were encircled around Mount Sinjar, it was the right decision for the UK to join coalition airstrikes to push Daesh back, to stop further massacres taking place and to provide air cover for the Kurdish and Iraqi Government forces to take back territory from Daesh and to hold it.

Also, I do not accept that if it is morally defensible to use airstrikes against Daesh 200 miles in one direction it becomes morally indefensible to do so 200 miles in another direction simply because there is a border in the middle that Daesh does not recognise. If there is any doubt about the legal situation, it has been answered by UN resolution 2249, and we are already helping the coalition in Syria with refuelling, intelligence and so on.

Where my concerns lie, and what will influence my vote tonight, is whether under the circumstances that we now face RAF participation in airstrikes on the densely populated town of Raqqa makes sense. I have seen no evidence to suggest that there are ground forces there which are capable or have the intention of taking back that town.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

rose—

[Richard Burden]

I am afraid that there is no time, because there are many others who wish to contribute.

That is not what these airstrikes are about. We have been told that they are about degrading Daesh capabilities and communications, which is certainly an important objective. We have also been told that that means not a generalised bombing campaign, but the use by the RAF of sophisticated weapons to minimise civilian casualties. I have asked the Prime Minister to give more information about the rules of engagement, but I have yet to receive a reply. However, I am prepared to believe that the RAF will target its strikes very closely on military targets. The point is that it is not simply RAF planes that will be hitting Raqqa. The town is already being bombed and, as far as I can tell, with a lot less selectivity than it has been suggested the RAF would use.

Recently, I read an article by a reporter in Raqqa who said that there has been a massive escalation in activity since 14 November. The reporter said that civilian casualties were dramatically on the rise and, proportionately, Daesh casualties were going down. Members may or may not like this, but we will be seen as part of that general coalition activity, and we have to ask ourselves whether that will increase or decrease the likelihood of indigenous forces joining us further down the line. Will it build support for Daesh or will it reduce it? The risk is very, very real that we will be handing Daesh a propaganda victory on a plate, and we will allow impressionable people to be won over to their murderous brand of jihadism.

Therefore in the absence of evidence that these airstrikes will achieve their military objective, and in the absence of evidence about what that objective is, I have concluded that I shall not vote today for direct UK participation in those strikes on Raqqa.

--- Later in debate ---

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I will be voting against the Government tonight, but I will not be doing so with any certainty that what I am doing is correct. I envy all those Members who are certain about what the right decision is today. I envy those who have contacted me on Twitter. I envy my constituents and party members who contacted me and said it is a no-brainer, that it is obvious what we should do. It has not been obvious to me. It has been very, very difficult indeed.

I listened to a number of contributions from hon. Friends who will be in a different Lobby tonight, voting with the Government, and I agreed with a great deal of what they had to say. It has been incredibly difficult to come to a decision. I agree that Daesh is a peril that must be defeated and that it is an evil scourge that inflicts misery on huge numbers of Muslims. It has killed far more Muslims than westerners. I also agree that we should not lightly turn our back on our allies. We should have tremendous solidarity with the people of France, upon whom such misery and carnage has recently been visited. As an internationalist, it is not easy for me to turn my back on the United Nations resolution, and I agree that the proposed action has a strong legal basis.

Why, then, will I not support the motion? Because I believe that sometimes the kindest thing one can do as a friend is to say to a friend that the direction they are taking in their moment of torment might not be the resolution to the problems they face. I listened with great intent to yesterday’s briefing from the Foreign Secretary and others, which I thought was incredibly professional, but it was not able to answer the central point about the ground forces.

When people say, “We are doing it in Iraq, so why are we not doing it in Syria?”, the simple answer is that we are doing it in Iraq at the request of the Iraqi Government and with the support of the Iraqi ground forces. I believe that the political process—a fledgling process—which has the promise of nations working together in the International Syria Support Group, must be given a chance to work. If we have an international transition plan and this fledgling stage starts to lead to something, we will then have the possibility that these ground forces will turn away from Assad and towards ISIL, and we will realise the potential of our actions actually to deliver what we all desperately want—the end of ISIL and a better and more promising future for the people of Syria.