Defence Reform Bill

Debate between Thomas Docherty and Nick Harvey

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty]

On new clause 6, we have all heard, in the Defence Committee and elsewhere, that the biggest disincentive to joining the reserves, of whichever service, is getting time off work. These are the words of the Secretary of State’s Parliamentary Private Secretary, the hon. Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt):

“a lot of reservists find it difficult to get time off for deployment or training courses”.—[Official Report, 23 April 2013; Vol. 561, c. 273WH.]

I am sorry that she is not in her place today. Perhaps she is training. [Interruption.] She is away on a course and we wish her all the best. Even the Secretary of State’s PPS has acknowledged that this is a huge challenge.

The White Paper sets out an ambitious goal of increasing the annual training requirement to 40 days, and I think Members on all sides of the House recognise the importance of that. I hope the Secretary of State will support new clause 6—his Liberal Democrat colleagues will, for reasons I will explain in a moment—because it seeks to provide a simple way to address that goal: reservists would receive an additional two weeks unpaid leave from their employer, provided that their firms had more than 50 employees. The hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) made the point that we have to careful about the impact on small and medium-sized enterprises, and it is right that we provide protection to smaller companies. The proposal is sensible and measured, because reservists will receive their military pay at no cost to their employer. In the rare cases of resistance from an employer, we propose that complaints are referred to an employment tribunal for arbitration.

I must confess that I am confident that the Liberal Democrats will vote for new clause 6 because the idea was originally developed by them and was passed at their party conference only seven weeks ago. I suspect that the former Minister for the Armed Forces, the hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey), has had a large hand in writing their defence policy, and that, in the regrettable and unforeseen event of there being a Division, he will vote for the new clause.

[Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)]

I admire the hon. Gentleman’s enthusiasm for the proceedings of the Liberal Democrat conference—I only wish I shared it. I confirm my party’s support for the idea of two weeks’ military training and, although I do not purport to speak for them, I am sure many Conservative Members take the same view. The difficulty with legislating for that now in the manner the hon. Gentleman is suggesting is that there is a serious cost implication: he is proposing that military pay will be provided for that period of time. I dearly hope that this Government or a future Government will at some point be able to find the resources, but a gargantuan effort has been made to balance the Ministry of Defence’s books and the resources are not there. I know the Labour party has a bit of form on making unfunded commitments, but it would be irresponsible to legislate on this when we do not have the funds to pay for it.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am genuinely baffled. I do not know where the hon. Gentleman was before he came into the Chamber, but reservists already receive pay when they are on training. This proposal is not about additional training time; it is about meeting requirements for the training they have to undertake. If his only concern is about the funding element, I can reassure him that there is no additional spending cost. It actually—[Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman stops chuntering for one second, I will finish. There will be no cost to the business and no additional cost to the Ministry of Defence, because it is already providing pay for that training period. Having given him that reassurance, I look forward to his confirming that Liberal Democrats will support us in the Lobby, in the unfortunate event that we cannot just adopt the proposal as a whole and someone calls a vote.

I am conscious that many others wish to speak; I will therefore finish with this thought. This Parliament is sovereign. It is up to us to send a clear signal that we want to support our armed forces, whether they be regular or reserves, on land, on sea or in the air. It is crucial that we provide a robust target for the MOD to do what it should be doing and ensuring that we have an adequate number of regulars and reserves to meet the aspirations that we all have for them.

Trident Alternatives Review

Debate between Thomas Docherty and Nick Harvey

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty]

If that were true, I would be absolutely astonished, but then nothing in this review and the work that was carried out by Liberal Democrat Ministers is credible.

The hon. Member for North Devon set out an argument that I have heard before that neither Russia nor China operates a CASD policy. I accept the premise of his argument, but he failed to mention—I am sure that it was inadvertent, not misleading—that both those countries have other platforms, so they maintain a continuous deterrent. We are the only one of the five that operates a single platform, so CASD is a continuous deterrent for us—there is no back-up plan.

I have a great deal of respect for the hon. Gentleman because after spending two and half years telling us why the Astute boat option would be sensible, he has at least had the courage to come to the Chamber and face up to the fact that he called that wrong. He argues that the problem was not a technical issue, but if his defence— pardon the pun—is that this is something that would cost billions and take decades to introduce, how is it not a technical problem?

[Sir Nick Harvey]

It was not a technical problem in the sense that technically it would work; it was a financial and a time issue. I accept, as the hon. Gentleman says, that the option is clearly not a runner, but not because it technically would not work.

[Thomas Docherty]

If the hon. Gentleman is not splitting hairs, he is splitting something or other, because if the option would cost billions of pounds and take decades to develop, the problem is technical. Any solution can be reaped with sufficient money and time.

The hon. Gentleman talked about how money could be circulated back into the MOD programme. We heard from the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) that the debate ends up being about things such as nurses and welfare, but the idea that the 4% lifetime cost savings as a result of having three boats would somehow be pumped back into the MOD’s conventional programme is not credible. The hon. Member for North Devon talked about how we could solve the challenges on the wider equipment programme, but we will have to do more with allies, whether on the joint strike fighter, interoperability or the remotely piloted air system. Work such as that started by the former Defence Secretary under the Lancaster House agreement is the way forward.

I noticed that the clock froze for two or three minutes while the hon. Member for Moray was speaking, but having listened to his speech, I felt that his argument had been frozen for 25 years. I was conscious that he did not want to use up his time by taking my intervention, so let me say that although he talked about the trade unions that could have been consulted, he could have spoken to the trade unions I met with my hon. Friend the Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle). If he spoke to trade union leaders at Faslane—the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) is in the Chamber but, surprisingly, he has not indicated that he wishes to speak—they would say that their future depends on this. I am sure that it was an oversight that the hon. Member for Moray did not suggest that those trade union leaders should have been consulted.

The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile), who I notice has not shown the usual courtesy by staying to hear the following two speeches before leaving the Chamber, made the rather bizarre claim that CASD could be guaranteed only by having a Conservative Government. If he was here, I would remind him that it was his Conservative Government who signed up to this review in the first place. I think that they need to hang their heads in shame for wasting taxpayers’ money and civil servants’ time—they have not wasted Defence Ministers’ time, because apparently they were not asked for their views—and there is absolutely no guarantee that they would not have a fudge at the next general election. The only way to guarantee a future for Barrow and for the Clyde is to send a clear message at the next general election by voting for my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness and other hon. Friends.

Scottish-recruited Units

Debate between Thomas Docherty and Nick Harvey

Wednesday 23rd May 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)]

I completely understand the concern and interest that have led the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) to seek this debate, and I commend him for doing so. Necessarily, the answers that I am able to give to some of his questions will be only tentative because decisions in respect of the future structure of the Army have not yet been taken. Let me set out the national security context in which those decisions will be taken.

All Members present will agree that it is the first duty of any Government to ensure the security of the country, and that requires decisions to be based on a realistic assessment of a number of factors in the short and long term. We live in an increasingly uncertain world with complex and unpredictable threats, so our armed forces, must of necessity, be flexible and adaptable into the future. We must also accept that the decisions about defence that have been made since the general election must start from the position of clearing up the economic legacy that we inherited. That is a strategic imperative, because it is the only way we will be able to afford to project power of any sort, to protect our national security and to ensure that our troops have the equipment they need. The strategic defence and security review addressed the balance between our national policy ambition, available resources and real-world commitments. It did so by making reference to the national security strategy, which set out the principal risks to our security, and to the national security tasks, which we need to fulfil.

Implementing the SDSR was always going to be an ongoing process and not a single event. We are now working through the programme to ensure that it is fit to support the capabilities required by Future Force 2020. We are going through a process of rapid change, but we have identified clearly to the public—throughout the UK, including in Scotland—our strategic aiming-point and what we believe our future force requirement will be in 2020.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) on securing this debate. Regarding the decisions to which he has just referred, the Minister will understand the great anxiety felt in Fife, around the Leuchars and Caledonia bases, about whether the British Army will be arriving and the Royal Air Force will be leaving. Although I appreciate that he is keen to get that decision correct, will he give serious consideration to updating the communities concerned on when the decision about the Army and the Air Force at the Leuchars and Caledonia bases will be taken?

[Nick Harvey]

I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is making. Of course, there was a statement to the House last July, but some of the announcements made that day have been, in a sense, superseded by the current review of Army structures. To the extent that I am able to communicate with the communities that were named in last year’s statement and that are therefore working on that basis, I will give them an update as soon as I can, when the Army restructuring work nears a conclusion.

As I say, we are working towards Future Force 2020 as our defined end-point. That process includes the statement from last July and the more recent statements made by the current Defence Secretary. Specifically, we are planning to make a progressive adjustment during the remainder of this decade to the balance between regulars and reserves in the Army. By 2020, we envisage a total Army force of about 120,000 troops, made up of 82,000 regulars and 30,000 trained reservists, with a margin for 8,000 reservists in training. As we withdraw from combat operations in Afghanistan, that shift offers a major opportunity to reconfigure the Army in a way that will maximise adaptability and flexibility for the future. The Army has been undertaking a major study—Army 2020—to determine how we will achieve these changes, and we will announce to the House the outcome of that study as soon as decisions have been taken.

The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire rightly paid a warm and full tribute to the achievements and historic heritage of the famous Scottish regiments. I am sure that many hon. Members in Westminster Hall today who represent areas with a serious military footprint know only too well the pride that local populations take in such glorious histories. I add my own tributes to the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, the Scots Guards, the Royal Regiment of Scotland in its current configuration, and indeed to the Highland Gunners and the Lowland Gunners, and to their personnel who have deployed on operations in recent years. We all owe a great deal to the members of our armed forces; we owe a great deal to those who hail from Scotland, just as we do to those who hail from England, Wales, Northern Ireland and, indeed, from across the Commonwealth. I pay tribute to their courage, commitment and professionalism.

Libya

Debate between Thomas Docherty and Nick Harvey

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Nick Harvey]

I thank my hon. Friend for his supportive remarks. It is inherently true that the use of attack helicopters in contested territory is dangerous, but we are deploying all our assets through NATO and if we were to decide to use attack helicopters it would be through NATO co-ordinated efforts, so the assets of other partner countries would be available to us to help defend them. We have experience of using Apache helicopters in contested territory and we have successful ways of minimising the threat to them, but it is an inherently dangerous business—there is no way of getting around that.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Will the Minister update the House on how many countries have now sent military advisers to Libya to help the rebels? Can he confirm who is responsible for co-ordinating their work?

[Nick Harvey]

We have sent some of our own advisers and they are working with the French. We co-ordinate that between us and they are the pre-eminent military advisers. There are some from other countries in that region but they are undertaking specific tasks in co-ordination with the British and French forces, so the predominant effort is Anglo-French and we are co-ordinating it between us.

RAF Leuchars

Debate between Thomas Docherty and Nick Harvey

Tuesday 25th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)]

I commend my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) for initiating this debate on the future of RAF Leuchars which, as the House will understand, is a subject of great importance to his constituency and more widely. My right hon. and learned Friend knows Leuchars very well, and I hope that during his visit yesterday with the Secretary of State for Scotland he saw once more what a fantastic job our personnel are doing.

I put on record my thanks to all those who work at RAF Leuchars and to the local community who have, over the years, given such strong support to the station, the RAF and the nation. I know this support is appreciated by all who are serving at the base.

RAF Leuchars has a long and honourable history. Aircraft from Leuchars have policed UK airspace for nearly 60 years, demonstrating the ability to intercept unidentified aircraft and thereby provide an effective deterrent. Given RAF Leuchars’ history and contribution to defence, it is understandable that my right hon. and learned Friend has spoken so passionately about its retention, both here in Parliament and in representations to me and to the Secretary of State.

In October, we published the strategic defence and security review, which was based on two clear priorities: supporting our mission in Afghanistan and setting the path to a coherent and affordable defence capability in 2020 and beyond. This took place against the Government’s clear determination to address the unprecedented fiscal deficit that we inherited. Every Department has had to make a contribution, and the Ministry of Defence is playing its part, but because of the priority that we place on security, the defence budget is making a more modest contribution to deficit reduction than many other Departments. Even so, this has regrettably meant tough decisions. It is painful, but we have to make sacrifices to get the economy and the defence programme back on track.

Our fleet of Harrier and Tornado air defence and ground attack aircraft have performed magnificently over 30 years, but those aircraft risk becoming outdated as threats continue to become more varied and sophisticated, and maintenance of the fleets will become an increasing challenge, so the decisions to retire the Harriers and to reduce the number of Tornados were difficult, but we have to focus resources where they are most needed now—in support of our current operations.

The RAF plans to make a transition to a fast-jet force comprising the Typhoon and the joint strike fighter by the end of the decade. This makes both operational and economic sense. We know from our work on the SDSR that RAF Kinloss and two other bases will no longer be needed by the RAF. Public and parliamentary attention has focused on the consequences for Tornado ground attack bases at RAF Lossiemouth in Moray and RAF Marham in Norfolk, and the Typhoon and Tornado fighter base at RAF Leuchars.

Today, RAF Leuchars’ mission is to deliver and maintain UK quick reaction alert (interceptor) north, concurrent with the growth of Typhoon, while supporting other military operations. The delivery of the northern element of quick reaction alert is RAF Leuchars’ top priority and requires Typhoon and Tornado F3 fighter aircraft to hold high alert to scramble and intercept unidentified aircraft approaching UK airspace. RAF Leuchars is geographically well located for the delivery of QRA operations. However, it may be possible to mount northern QRA from another location. Lossiemouth and Leeming in north Yorkshire would be possible options.

As well as the support for RAF Leuchars offered by my right hon. and learned Friend this evening, I have had similar representations from the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) regarding RAF Kinloss and RAF Lossiemouth, and from my hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) regarding RAF Marham. It is essential to stress once again to the House that a decision on which of these bases will no longer be required by the RAF should not be taken to mean that they will no longer be required for defence purposes. We are now taking forward work to analyse the basing and estate consequences of the SDSR in their entirety, and to develop a coherent plan for the future of the whole defence estate. This piece of work goes well beyond the bases directly affected by the SDSR. For example, the Prime Minister has announced our intention to accelerate the rebasing of the Army from Germany, which must also be taken into account, along with the greater efficiencies that must be made through broader estate rationalisation.

The Ministry of Defence will need to determine what makes the most sense for the structure of our armed forces, including where they are based, where they need to train and operate from and the need to ensure value for money for the British taxpayer. Contrary to media speculation, no matter how well informed Members might have believed it to be, no decisions have been taken on our future basing requirements beyond those I have outlined. It will take time to work out which bases we will retain and the uses to which they will be put.

We know that these are important decisions and that we must get them right. The Ministry of Defence has been clear, and I repeat, that we do not expect that work to be concluded for some time yet, but we hope it will be by the summer. I know and regret that that means uncertainty for the people and communities concerned, but we will not rush to a conclusion without deep and proper analysis. As the SDSR states, we will aim to do so in a way that is sensitive to economic and social pressures and the needs of our people and their families.

We also want to ensure that any decisions fully take into consideration the implications for Tornado personnel operating in Afghanistan over the coming year and for their families. We are consulting other Departments, the Scottish Government, local communities and relevant agencies, as appropriate, to manage the local impact of our decisions. We must do further work to establish the detail of how to progress, but I am determined that at the end of the process the United Kingdom will have a coherent plan to deliver an estate that supports the capabilities we need to keep our people safe, meet our responsibilities to our allies and friends and secure our national interests.

As they were in the SDSR, our decisions have to be objective, unsentimental and based on the military advice we receive. I stress again that the military considerations are paramount among the factors that we will consider. We need to focus finite resources where they are most needed. We know that the RAF will be smaller and will inevitably need fewer flying stations. Although it will become leaner, we can maximise investment in new aircraft and also assure full support to current and contingent operations. The transition to the combined fast-jet fleet of joint strike fighters and Typhoon will certainly provide the RAF with world-class capability for the future.

[Thomas Docherty]

Will the Minister give way?

[Nick Harvey]

I think that I might be about to answer the point that the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) wishes to raise. My right hon. and learned Friend has called on the Government to base our decisions on military necessity, the reality of the public purse and the socio-economic impacts on the areas affected, and I assure him that that is precisely what we will do. I have chosen carefully the order in which I put those criteria: the military considerations come first. They must be in line with economic considerations, but we are in no way immune to the wider impact that those decisions will have and, of course, and will listen to representations from Members from both sides of the House on the impact they will have on communities. All three factors will be taken into consideration. I think that that was the point that the hon. Gentleman wished to raise.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am grateful for the Minister’s clarification. Am I correct in thinking that there is perhaps a fourth factor that should be seen as part of the whole discussion, which is the consideration given to what other uses the surplus bases could be turned?

[Nick Harvey]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that the other military uses to which bases can be put are part and parcel of the decision making, but I think that he is wrong to view that as a fourth factor. They are absolutely part and parcel of the military considerations that will inform us first and foremost, and of the economic considerations that will flow from that. Indeed, they will have considerable socio-economic impacts on the communities in each case. The SDSR is a process that will transform our armed forces to meet the challenges of the future. That includes the defence estate. We will now press on with that work.

Question put and agreed to.

RAF Marham

Debate between Thomas Docherty and Nick Harvey

Thursday 11th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty]

The hon. Gentleman is a decent Minister. Will he assure all the communities affected that the Ministry will work quickly and that when the decision is made, the communities will be the first to know, so that the media do not—through whatever process—discover before the three or four affected communities?

[Nick Harvey]

I certainly give the hon. Gentleman a commitment that we will try to make sure that that happens in an orderly fashion, as he describes. I must stress, however, that as this process involves an estate review across defence, more than three or four communities will have an interest. It is a very big piece of work. Of course we will endeavour to do things quickly but, as I have stressed, there will be a detailed and comprehensive study across not only the whole of the RAF but defence as a whole. It will consider the issues I have discussed, including where units that come back from Germany might be based. We will do it as quickly as we can, but I do not want to mislead him into thinking that that means he will get an outcome any time soon.

We need to do further work to establish the detail of how to progress, but I am determined that at the end of the process, the United Kingdom will have the capabilities it needs to keep our people safe, to meet our responsibilities to our allies and friends and to secure our national interests. As they were in the SDSR, our decisions have to be objective, unsentimental and based on the military advice we receive. We need to focus finite resources where they are most needed. We know that the armed forces will be smaller and that, as the RAF reduces its number of fast jets, it will inevitably need fewer flying stations. Although the RAF might become leaner, we can maximise investment in new aircraft, as well as assuring full support to current and contingent operations. The transition to the combined fast-jet fleet of joint strike fighters and Typhoon will certainly provide the RAF with world-class capability for the future. My hon. Friend has called on the Government to base their decisions on military necessity, the realities of the public purse and the socio-economic impact on the areas affected and I assure her that that is precisely what we intend to do.

Question put and agreed to.

Ministry of Defence (Statistics)

Debate between Thomas Docherty and Nick Harvey

Tuesday 20th July 2010 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)]

Ministry of Defence national and regional statistics may sound a fairly obscure subject for a debate, so you can imagine my astonishment, Mr Amess, when I walked into the Chamber and found it packed to the rafters. I thought that there must have been some misunderstanding, and it was soon cleared up when hon. Members trooped out. Nevertheless, I congratulate the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) on raising the matter, which is clearly one about which he feels keenly. He demonstrated that the crux of the matter is not statistics. Rather it is in the size and structure of our armed forces and how we go about equipping them. The subject could hardly be more serious.

The hon. Gentleman clearly feels strongly about the matter. He has two major RAF operating bases in his constituency, and a significant number of his constituents are armed forces personnel. Clearly, he has done something to impress them at the last three elections because they continue to send him back as their MP. He has also spoken as his party’s spokesperson on defence matters. That party is, of course, the Scottish National party, and because of its pursuit of independence for Scotland comes with a certain perspective of the world. He will understand that I do not share that perspective, and as Minister for the Armed Forces, I could hardly be expected to do so.

The hon. Gentleman has spoken forcefully about the implications for Scotland of how the defence budget is spent, but I and my ministerial colleagues are more concerned with the implications for the men and women in the armed forces. Let me be absolutely clear that the purpose of the defence budget is to maintain the armed forces so that they can contribute to our nation’s security—the whole nation’s security. Every pound that the MOD spends must contribute to the security of the United Kingdom. Decisions on where personnel are based, and on which contracts are let to which firms are based fundamentally and totally on what is best for the armed forces.

I fear that the thesis that the hon. Gentleman advanced is based on a completely false premise of how defence works—for example, the idea that a variation in the number of servicemen and women permanently based in Scotland is somehow related to Scotland’s significance to our armed forces. That is simply not the case. The armed forces offer amazing opportunities to those who want to join, regardless of which part of the United Kingdom they come from. Scots may join any part of the Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Royal Air Force, or the Army, and have a tremendous career. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that even joining the Royal Regiment of Scotland does not mean that a soldier will necessarily stay in Scotland.

The 4th Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland is currently based at Fallingbostel in Germany. Its personnel would not appear in any statistics as being based in Scotland, but that does not lessen the battalion’s connection with Scotland, or the contribution that it makes to Scotland’s economy. Of course not. Scots serving in the various parts of the Army, the Royal Navy, or the Royal Air Force, but not necessarily based in Scotland, do not, in any sense, lessen the contribution that those Scots make to the armed forces. As the Secretary of State said recently in the House, the service personnel we meet do not care whether their comrades come from Cardiff, Edinburgh, Belfast or London. They are all members of the armed forces under the Crown, and proud of it.

The hon. Gentleman spoke passionately about patterns of defence spending. He referred to the defence footprint, and then alleged that there was a defence underspend in Scotland, but that is simply not the basis on which defence could possibly be organised by a Department with specific responsibility for the provision of defence of the entire realm. We have an interest in the defence footprint to some extent, but only in so far as it enables our military functions to be performed better. We must ask whether footprint is an issue in military terms, and whether it affects our ability to recruit from and defend the whole of the United Kingdom. That is the beginning and end of the Ministry of Defence’s responsibility to consider the defence footprint.

It cannot be repeated often enough that every pound of the defence budget must deliver as much as possible for the men and women of our armed forces, and through them, our national security. As Minister for the Armed Forces, I make no apologies for seeing beyond where a firm is based and looking at the overall benefit to our service personnel. It is the duty of Government to ensure that the defence budget is spent wisely, maximising the resources available to the front line and ensuring that every pound counts.

Operating at a national UK level is the only way that we will achieve the best value for money and deliver what the armed forces need. That is what matters. The hon. Gentleman seems to propose a different method of spending the defence budget. He implies that there should be a quota for each region and nation of the United Kingdom. Perhaps he thinks that a set proportion should be spent in each region; perhaps a set proportion should be spent overseas. He seems to believe in a concept of a “fair share” to be calculated per head of population, and the implication seems to be that we should do that irrespective of the capabilities that it would provide for the armed forces. Surely he does not think that that would be a wise way to allocate the defence budget? If that argument is taken to the extreme and we look at regions where there are no defence manufacturers, the logic would suggest that we should artificially stimulate the creation of a defence manufacturer.

[Thomas Docherty]

Will the Minister give way?

[Nick Harvey]

With great reluctance, since the hon. Gentleman has not observed the normal courtesies.

[Thomas Docherty]

Does the Minister understand that his arguments about making decisions based purely on defence would have more credibility in Scotland if the previous Conservative Government had not taken the Trident contract away from Rosyth and sent it to Devonport? That was not in the interests of the MOD or the taxpayer; it was about political chicanery.

[Nick Harvey]

I listened with interest to the opening speech from the hon. Member for Moray. His thesis seemed to be that the 13 years of the previous Labour Government had—according to the construct in his mind and his ideas about the fair divvying out of jobs and investment—counted against Scotland’s interests. It is not my role or responsibility to defend the previous Conservative Government or any decision that they made. However, if the previous Government did what the hon. Gentleman alleges, one presumes that they did it according to their best calculation of how to act in the interests of UK defence. One might not necessarily agree with each and every decision that the Government took, but they took those decisions from that perspective. The Ministry of Defence’s responsibility is the defence of the realm. Other Departments have responsibility for stimulating economic growth in different parts of the country. If hon. Members wish to form cross-governmental policies, they are welcome to do so, but that is not the purpose and locus of the Ministry of Defence. Our role is to secure the defence of the realm and to ensure that our armed forces are properly supported and equipped to carry out that function. There would be no sensible alternative way to organise our defences. Any alteration to that general approach would be a function of industrial policy.

I make no apologies for differing with the hon. Gentleman on that matter. We do not allocate money on a regional basis and it should be clear why the MOD stopped producing estimates of its regional expenditure two or three years ago. Quite simply, the estimates did not add anything to the decision-making process, given that that process was founded, fairly and squarely, on defence considerations.

The decision passed me by at the time—I make no bones about that. However, I can see no sinister motive, cover up or scramble to hide uncomfortable truths. The hon. Gentleman presents his concern as if it is part of some preconceived plot, but it seems from the time scale that the MOD had stopped gathering those statistics before it conceded the principle of a strategic defence review. The idea that one action went hand in glove with the other to mask the impact of the strategic defence review is far-fetched in the extreme. Let me return to my point: every pound counts. I readily acknowledge that those estimates may have been helpful to the hon. Gentleman in pursuing a political agenda, but they were not helpful to the Ministry of Defence in furthering decisions that had to be based on defence considerations.

The previous Administration drove down the cost of MOD head office by about 25%, which meant that the number of analytical staff in head office was reduced by a similar proportion. That was achieved by cutting some low-priority outputs, and one output deemed to have lower priority was the estimate of defence expenditure by region, and the employment dependent on that expenditure. That decision was made two or three years ago and I was not party to it, although I understand the logic behind the decision. By all accounts, the figures were difficult to produce and resource-intensive to maintain. They relied on analytical tables produced by the Office for National Statistics, which have not been updated since 1995. As I explained, that did not support the MOD’s decision making.

I have looked into how much it would cost to reintroduce the estimates, and I am told that reproducing the ONS tables would cost in the region of £150,000. Every three years or so, another £100,000 would have to be spent updating the underlying data. Additional statistical staff would have to be employed to perform regular updates at a cost of about £50,000 a year. As much as I respect the hon. Gentleman, I agree with my predecessors that one struggles to justify that expenditure as being in the interests of United Kingdom defence.

The hon. Gentleman challenged me about the exchange that we had on the Floor of the House. I have already apologised to him unreservedly, and I will do so again today. I raised a false hope and expectation that production of the figures could recommence. I understood that he was asking me to stop suppressing some information held by the Ministry, and I agreed to his request on that basis. Had he explained in large letters that he wanted to recompile figures that had ceased to be complied two or three years ago, I would have looked into the issue more seriously before replying. My impression was that the information was still held and that the previous Government had chosen, for political reasons, to suppress it. I turned to the Secretary of State for Defence and asked what he thought about it, and he replied, “He can have whatever we’ve got.” The hon. Gentleman can have whatever we have got, but we do not have what he asks for. It would cost a lot of money to get it again.

In conclusion, it would be a mistake to believe that we are singling out Scotland—I know that the hon. Gentleman feels that we are, but we are not. We are ceasing to produce such figures across the board. I would be interested to know whether he can point to any other central Government Department that goes to a lot of cost and expense to break figures down on a regional basis in that fashion. We cannot find any comparator in the ways that other Departments spend money on UK-wide projects, but if the hon. Gentleman can point to one, I will have another look. This debate should not be about competition between different parts of the UK. As far as we are concerned, it is about the security of the nation. We must spend our money on that basis, not on compiling the figures that the hon. Gentleman asks for.