Europe

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Wednesday 30th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

I am very supportive of the Prime Minister, who has changed the climate to make sure that we are going to have a proper debate about Europe for the next few years. I have a little lesson for Labour Members who might think it rather strange that we want to talk about Europe. In my constituency in the south-west, I am for ever being talked to about the whole issue of Europe. A lot of people come to see me on a regular basis, and they clearly perceive that Europe is now the bogeyman. We as politicians have to be seen to be taking some action, and the Prime Minister is certainly showing the way.

Britain’s role in Europe has been to maintain the balance of power within Europe—that has been our island story for the past 1,000 years. It has been very much about trading issues to do with imperial preference, the corn laws and so on. These issues come along every 100 years or so, and we need to react to them. The Conservative party has been having this debate because we are the party that represents the whole country and understands what people feel about such issues.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Syria

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Thursday 10th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

There is a good deal of overwhelming evidence, as I have said in the House previously, of the tangible assistance given by Iran to the regime. It is another aspect of the deeply unhelpful policies pursued by Iran in the region. That assistance is likely to have included, in recent times, financial assistance to the regime, but also people to assist in the conflict itself and military equipment. We do everything we can to inhibit the supply of such equipment. I have taken up several times with the Iraqi Government the issue of the overfly over Iraq of Iranian flights into Syria. The Iraqi Government have given assurances about that and, indeed, have searched some flights in recent months. We will continue to take up that issue with Iraq and, indeed, try to expose Iran’s participation in the brutal oppression of the Syrian people.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

The Foreign Secretary, as a former historian, has already alluded to the need to learn the lessons of history. May I press him a little more on what steps the Government are taking to make sure that the lessons from Libya for transition to the future are learned in Syria?

[Mr Hague]

Yes, we must learn those lessons. The situations are, of course, different. We must always respect the differences between these countries. The more that the national coalition can create a consensus among opposition groups about the basis, philosophy and principles on which they would like to see the country governed, the more successful Syria will be in future. That is more important than deciding which individuals will occupy which posts. It is important that they are in contact with and have influence over as many as possible of the armed groups and militias that support the opposition cause, because in Libya different groups fighting in different parts of the country did not have strong enough links for the subsequent government of the country.

Overseas Territories (Governance)

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I am grateful to have the opportunity to speak in the debate. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once again, Dr McCrea. I was trying to recall the last time that I had the pleasure, and I think it was when you were artfully chairing the Committee on the Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill. You did so with some aplomb and I am sure you will bring the same chairing ability to today’s debate.

I suspect that one or two observers will be slightly confused, as they may have been expecting a debate on unmanned aerial vehicles. For the benefit of any observers who are confused, that will be this afternoon at 2.30 pm. The Minister has a diary commitment this afternoon to give evidence to the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs on, I think, overseas territories. I am grateful that he has been able to move things around to attend the debate today.

I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst). I have the pleasure and privilege of serving under his chairmanship on the Administration Committee and as a member of the executive committee of the UK branch of the CPA. He eloquently set out the role of the CPA and the high regard in which overseas territories are held by the Foreign Office and Parliament.

I also pay tribute to the Minister’s predecessor, the hon. Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham). His work was appreciated on both sides of the House and, indeed, in the overseas territories. He served with distinction for two and a half years as the Minister with responsibility for the overseas territories. One of the great debates about Ministers is whether they are the Minister for the overseas territories or the Minister to them. I am sure that in his new role the Minister will navigate skilfully through those rocky waters, making both us and the overseas territories believe that he is “our” Minister. I look forward to hearing his priorities when he responds.

Parliamentarian that you are, Dr McCrea, you will be aware that the CPA is a unique institution. It is more than 100 years old, having been founded in 1911 as the Empire Parliamentary Association, with six founder members. They were the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada and—curiously—Newfoundland. I was not aware that until after the second world war, Newfoundland was a separate dominion from the rest of Canada; I will not digress on the long history of how that came to be.

As the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden mentioned, the CPA is now a much larger organisation, comprising the Parliaments and Assemblies of not only members of the Commonwealth, but devolved institutions at state and regional level around the world from Canada to the Seychelles, from Pakistan to Scotland and, indeed, Dr McCrea, the Northern Ireland Assembly, which is a full and active member of the CPA. You will also be familiar with the story that at last year’s CPA conference, I confused Mr Basil McCrea with your son; they are both Members of the Legislative Assembly.

As the right hon. Gentleman said, one of the CPA’s strengths is that it provides a unique platform for the overseas territories. It is the only Commonwealth institution that recognises them in a formal capacity. From having spoken to several of those from the overseas territories last week, when they were here for the joint ministerial council, one thing they are keen for—perhaps the Minister will reflect on this—is a more formal status within the Commonwealth, perhaps as associate or observer members. At the moment, their only voice is Members of the House and of the other place, plus the CPA. I know that the premiers and chief ministers would like a more formal opportunity, an issue which may be appropriate for this debate.

The CPA, and of course the Commonwealth as a whole, is linked by a common and shared identity. It is not simply the fact that we have a common Head of State—we all have Her Majesty the Queen as head of the Commonwealth—but a shared history. When the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge) and I were in Turks and Caicos on an election mission, we jointly had the great honour and privilege of laying a wreath on behalf of the CPA on Remembrance Sunday. It is worth reflecting on the fact that when the United Kingdom sent out the call to arms in two world wars, the overseas territories played a full role in answering that call, just as your constituents, Dr McCrea, and mine did, as well as other dominions and territories in the Commonwealth. It is perhaps unfortunate that the overseas territories do not always get the recognition that they deserve for the full role they enjoy playing in the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth.

I have had the privilege of undertaking two observer missions—one to the British Virgin Islands in November last year, and one to the Turks and Caicos, with the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East, last month. Observer missions are vital to any vibrant democracy for the purposes of transparency, for providing comfort to all those participating, and, indeed, those watching around the world, and sharing best practice. As hon. Members will know, the itinerary of an observer mission includes, in the build-up to an election, meeting all the political parties privately to give them the opportunity to talk about their experiences of the election. We obviously seek reassurances that they are comfortable that the election is free and fair. As someone who has stood for elected office, I think it useful to have such meetings before the election. From my experience, if there is a favourable result, we have a slightly more favourable view of the whole process than if there is an unfavourable one. It is therefore vital that those discussions take place before election day, rather than afterwards.

We also take the opportunity to meet the governors—I will return to their role later—and election officials to understand election ordinances and rules, and to see their processes. Like the proverbial swan, although elections always appear to move serenely over the surface of the water, underneath a vast amount of paddling, often to some purpose, is going on in the build-up. We undertake press and media monitoring. On our most recent mission, the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East and I observed a political party rally in the Turks and Caicos Islands. That was an experience in itself; as he will recall, it was difficult to get the PNP—the Progressive National party—tune out of one’s head, because it was played over and over again.

I pay tribute to the Westminster Foundation for Democracy for its work in various countries, for example in the build-up to the restoration of local democracy in Turks and Caicos. It visited several times to help build election ordinances and confidence in the process, and to put an electoral system in place. One very simple thing was done there—or at least I would say that it was simple. Previously, political parties could treat voters by supplying them with free alcohol and food both at rallies during the build-up and on polling day. Westminster Foundation for Democracy helpfully made the proposal, which was certainly taken up with enthusiasm by party treasurers, to prohibit giving alcohol to potential voters on polling day. In the United Kingdom, we look with some bemusement at the idea that we could, in effect, treat voters, but it was standard practice for 30 or 40 years in the Turks and Caicos Islands. That is a simple example of how engagement by other Commonwealth parliamentarians can help improve the democratic electoral process.

[James Duddridge]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his work in relation to the Turks and Caicos Islands and more broadly. Does he agree that we have as much to learn from some of the territories about governance as they have to learn from us? I remember coming back from an election at which people queued up for hours, because they were so passionate about voting, and the turnout was 95%, to a United Kingdom election at which people told me on the doorstep that they could not be bothered to vote and turnout was 15% to 20%.

[Thomas Docherty]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman, who was a pleasure to work with on the mission. He is right that turnout was 80% or above. People queued for an hour before polls opened, and for three or four hours after they had officially closed, to take part in the democratic process, which is a tribute to them and their commitment to democracy. As the hon. Gentleman will recall, I recounted to an election official that in my constituency if somebody was asked to wait for two minutes, they would probably turn tail and go home. I cannot imagine such enthusiasm in the United Kingdom, so he is absolutely right.

I want to pay particular tribute to Ms Juliette Penn, who is the returning officer for the British Virgin Islands. She is a formidable woman, who organises her elections with some efficiency. I regret to say that my local returning officer could learn quite a lot from her about producing a result efficiently and with confidence. I press the Minister to consider what more we can do to partner and work with electoral registration officers in the overseas territories and those in other Parliaments and Assemblies, whether the Crown dependencies, the devolved Administrations or local government. The hon. Gentleman is entirely right; it would be incredibly patronising and foolhardy to think that this was a one-way process of the UK teaching the overseas territories how to do things. Quite often, it is the reverse.

That leads me nicely to the on-the-day observing that we do. It is our goal to visit all polling stations on polling day, which in some places can be a logistical challenge. In some territories, there are a very small number of electors on very small islands. One of our observers spent a day—I imagine not an unpleasant day—on an island that had 30 voters. He had to take a good book with him to get through the 12 hours while the polls were open. However, there is a serious point. We are clear about what we are looking for; we want to ensure that no treating of voters takes place and that no undue influence is placed on voters in the vicinity of the polling stations. As the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East will recall, we heard some fascinating tales from around the world. For example, in recent years, voters were taking their mobile phones, which now have cameras, into the polling booth when they cast their vote. They photographed their ballot paper, which they duly took to the polling clerk and put in the box. They then went outside to a gentleman sitting in a car about 100 feet away from the polling station, showed the picture of their ballot paper and received $100 or £100 in the local currency. Things that we would find absolutely astonishing have been common practice in some parts of the Commonwealth.

When we reviewed the last election in the Turks and Caicos Islands, it was clear that such things were not happening, because robust processes had been put place. I pay tribute to the Governor’s office, the local police and election officials for the work they have done with the parties to stamp out such behaviour. However, it is not an uncommon problem in some parts of the world, which is why our missions are so important.

We also attend the counts and, in some cases, the recounts. This is an area where there is still room for improvement. It was heartening to talk to the new Premier of the Turks and Caicos Islands, Dr Rufus Ewing, about the matter; I know the Minister will want to welcome him to his new role. On the island I mentioned, where there were only 30 voters, electoral officers took two hours to count the ballot papers—even my returning officer would not take two hours to count 30 voters’ choices. There is perhaps some room for a more efficient system to be introduced. The count is a vital part of the whole process. It is critical that the voters feel, and can see, that their democratic choices are reflected in the results. Although I may joke that the process is slow, there was no real dispute that it was fair. There was no indication that anything untoward had happened to the ballot papers between the close of the poll and counting.

Clearly, there are differences in approach. For example, rather than bringing all the ballot boxes to one polling station or to one count, the territories often count the votes in situ. They close their polling station at, say, 6 o’clock and go straight to a count, and I can see the advantage in that. In a new democracy, or one that is establishing its confidence, there is a strong argument that there should be as little movement as possible of ballot papers. To be fair, it makes for a long day for election officials and campaign workers. Dr McCrea, you and I have fought enough elections to know that our day does not begin when the polls open and end when the polls shut; there is a little bit before and a little bit after.

The CPA missions produce a report. If anyone is interested, they are publicly available from the Foreign Office. Both our report on the BVI and our preliminary report on the Turks and Caicos, which I think the Minister has had an opportunity to look at, said that the process was fair and transparent and that the people’s will had been adequately reflected in the results. While we recognise that some efficiencies can be introduced, it is fundamentally a robust system.

That leads me to the ways we can help some of the overseas territories strengthen their democratic processes. As the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden has mentioned, there are a number of overseas territories in the Caribbean. I will not list them all because I am bound to forget one, which would be a terrible offence. It strikes me that we can do more, through the governors, to encourage election officials to share good practice, and I would be interested to hear the Minister’s views. It is surely not beyond the wit of the Foreign Office to bring together the EROs for all the overseas territories to share common practice. Perhaps the Minister can outline what steps he is considering to encourage the returning officers from the BVI, the TCI and the Anguillas to observe the build-up to the Cayman elections that are taking place next year and to offer suggestions. In that way, they can build an informal network so that as each election comes round, the returning officers learn from each other.

The Minister will be aware of the role of the Crown dependencies within the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. On our mission last year to the British Virgin Islands, we were delighted to be joined by representatives from the Isle of Man and Guernsey. It struck me that on a practical level, they have more in common with the overseas territories. Like many of our Crown dependencies, their strength lies in shipping registries, tourism and financial services. They also have relatively small numbers of legislators in their Assemblies and Parliaments.

[James Duddridge]

Earlier, the hon. Gentleman made the point that he would encourage the Minister for, or of, overseas territories—hopefully both—to look at EROs regionally becoming more involved in the process. Does he agree that one of the strengths of our mission was that it was chaired not by a politician from the United Kingdom Parliament, but by Joe Bossano, a Minister from the Gibraltarian Parliament? It would be constructive to have a cadre of politicians who were regionally involved in peer-to-peer assessment of the elections, rather than simply relying on people to travel over from Gibraltar or the United Kingdom, which is not the most economic thing to do. Furthermore, we do not have the same degree of expertise and the same understanding of those territories.

[Thomas Docherty]

The hon. Gentleman makes an incredibly powerful and valid point. He is absolutely right, and I pay tribute to Joe Bossano for the way he led the observer mission; he spoke very eloquently, and with some credibility, about the role of overseas territories, which, of course, include Gibraltar. We need to encourage not just EROs but the overseas territories’ politicians to work together where appropriate. Clearly, it is slightly more challenging logistically for Members from the Falkland Islands to go to BVI, which, by my count, involves five stops or changes, plus a train journey from Brize Norton to Heathrow. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that we should be encouraging the territories of, say, the Caribbean and Bermuda to work together as parliamentarians, especially as many of the territories have slightly different electoral systems. Some have not just districts but at-large, all-island systems which we do not have in the UK Parliament, although our colleagues in Scotland and Wales do to an extent. The different electoral systems are one of the things that we UK politicians must get our heads around. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that encouraging that involvement will be a slightly more economical use of the FCO’s pound.

I am very keen that within the British Isles and Mediterranean region branch of the CPA we have a group of parliamentarians who develop their skills, know what they are looking for and know how to write their reports. We are seeing the Minister next week and he is aware that one of the issues I am keen to talk to him about is how we develop skill-sets within this Parliament, so that we have a group of colleagues who are able to go to elections, whether in overseas territories, in Africa—if we are invited—or in Australia.

It is worth bearing in mind that having election missions is now the norm rather than the exception. Just last month, the United States had a delegation from overseas, including at least one Member of the House of Commons, my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mark Hendrick). I know that the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East has taken a great interest in Africa, and many African countries have such delegations. Territories and nations that do not have election observers from elsewhere run the risk of opening themselves up to questions such as, “What is it they have to hide?” Perhaps the Minister can enlighten me, but I think that there are very few countries in the world that do not have election observers; North Korea springs to mind. Perhaps he can think of a slightly more exhaustive list, but I think it would be a very small list of countries. Any electorate that has elections coming up should ask why they do not have election observers coming into their country or territory.

I want to touch briefly on the role of governors. I pay tribute to the two governors I had the privilege of working with during elections: His Excellency Governor Boyd McCleary of the British Virgin Islands; and His Excellency Governor Rick Todd in the Turks and Caicos. Can I press the Minister to say a little bit about the role of governors in helping to build the democratic processes? I particularly want to press him to say something about Governor Todd. He will be aware, as I am, that there has been a petition, which no one seems to be taking ownership of, criticising the Governor. I would be grateful if the Minister would place on record whether the Governor still has the full confidence of Her Majesty’s Government. Hopefully, he can put an end to the speculation that has started up in some quarters in parts of the Turks and Caicos.

In the remaining time, I will move away from talking about the Caribbean specifically. I hope that the Foreign Office will look at the CPA as a useful ally and partner in building the governance arrangements of the overseas territories. As I said, the CPA is a unique organisation. There is no other organisation in the world with a common identity and common history that brings together such an eclectic mix of assemblies and Parliaments, from sovereign nations through to Crown dependencies, devolved Parliaments and assemblies, and overseas territories. I would be grateful if the Minister could set out what he thinks the CPA can bring as a partner to strengthening the democratic processes.

My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) will be setting out the Opposition’s position on the territories shortly. In closing, I will just say that on the issue of air passenger duty there is genuine concern among our overseas territories that they are being discriminated against. I am sure you would agree, Dr McCrea, that it is a slightly bizarre situation that because we measure by distance to a capital, if someone flies to Honolulu they will pay far less in APD than if they fly to an overseas territory in the Caribbean or to Kingston or to any other Commonwealth country.

When the Minister met the premiers and chief ministers of the UK’s overseas territories last week the issue of APD was raised, so I would be grateful if he could set out how he found his first joint ministerial council—indeed, the first JMC. Perhaps he could say a little about what his priorities are for the coming 12 months and how he will evaluate success. I hope that he will also set out how we go forward with the White Paper, which was relatively uncontroversial, as far as a Government White Paper can be uncontroversial—I say that in the nicest possible way. I would be very interested to hear how he intends to take forward the ideas in the White Paper and the submissions from the CPA and others.

Finally, I wish the Minister all the best in his role. I know that he will find it deeply stimulating and challenging, and we look forward to working with him in the months ahead.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Thank you, Dr McCrea, for calling me to speak. It is a real pleasure to appear under your chairmanship; I think I am doing so for the first time.

I welcome the new Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds). I think that this is the first time we have had the opportunity to debate with each other; I suspect that the topic of today’s debate will not be the most controversial topic that we will address.

It has been a real pleasure to attend this debate, and I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) for securing it. He has kept me in order on many occasions in the past and it is a pleasure to hear him on the other side of the fence, talking about this important issue. We have had a very interesting debate.

I am a great fan of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, which is a tremendous institution in Parliament. My own constituency of Wrexham has benefited massively from the CPA, because we have developed a very strong link with Lesotho in southern Africa as a direct result of a visit that I paid there in 2005. It led to very close links between schools in my constituency and in Lesotho, which is a developing country. As a direct result of the CPA visit that I made, Wrexham hosted the Lesotho Olympic team. That sort of link, which is between not only parliamentarians but constituencies and institutions within constituencies, is what we should be working to try to achieve with the overseas territories.

One of the real challenges of modern parliamentary life is that the focus of MPs is very much on their own constituencies or their own constituency work; sometimes that work does not extend beyond the borders of the constituency, let alone of the United Kingdom. We all know that the overseas territories are an intrinsic and central part of our history. That has been very evident in this debate—they are part of what makes the United Kingdom, and it is absolutely imperative that we recognise that and continue to have a strong and developing relationship with them.

We have heard today about how those links are carried forward through the CPA and, of course, through other avenues. However, it is also the case that, because of the disparate nature of the overseas territories and their geographical spread, it is very difficult for the overseas territories and those developing knowledge of democratic institutions to secure regular experience of elections of the type that we have. We have secured our experience in a country of 60 million people.

It is very important indeed that we work with the overseas territories to share our experience of elections. I think it was the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden who made the point that we can also learn from the overseas territories, and my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) made the same point. In an era of turnouts of 12% or 15% in some UK elections, we must not think that we are in a state of grace as far as dealing with elections is concerned. The enthusiasm of a novel election process, as we saw all those years ago in South Africa and as we see today in other places, tells us and the people of the UK that democracy is an important process, which needs to develop. We also need to bring that experience from other places to the UK.

What we as parliamentarians can offer is the benefit of our experience, and I strongly agree with my hon. Friend’s point about electoral registration officers. In an era when communication is becoming easier because of the development of the internet, it is possible to maintain relations that might not have been possible 40 years ago. When the right hon. Gentleman visited St Helena, the prospect of maintaining contact with individuals there was so remote as to have been virtually impossible, but that is now possible once a connection is made. I would like relations to be extended to not only parliamentarians but the communities they represent in the UK, so that we can pool our resources and secure the relationships that are so necessary to building good governance and democracy in the overseas territories.

It is important that parliamentarians should be involved. Increasingly, under the European Union, electoral observation tends to focus on European institutions rather than Parliament. One theme I want to pursue with the Minister is that I would like more parliamentarians to take part in electoral observation missions to Commonwealth countries and the overseas territories. Elected politicians bring a substantial benefit to the observation process, and it is essential in a multi-party democracy that they play a role, although not an exclusive one, in electoral observation missions. It is unfortunate that that role has diminished in recent years, and while civil servants from a particular institution often go on missions, politicians are sometimes excluded.

[Thomas Docherty]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one key advantage politicians have is not only that we can talk candidly, face to face, with fellow politicians, but that we have extensive experience as campaign workers before we are elected and during the process of being elected? We can therefore see what the wider political party is looking for from a process.

[Ian Lucas]

That is absolutely right. Elections in a democracy are about competition between parties. Campaigning is incredibly important, and politicians are much more familiar with that skill than even the most experienced electoral registration officer. It is therefore important that communication takes place, although the far-flung nature of the overseas territories makes it difficult for them to have the interactions that we have developed over the years. We should build strongly on our experience in that respect.

The other relevant issue—to be slightly more controversial —is financial transparency; I was pleased that it played an important part in the Foreign Office White Paper “The Overseas Territories: Security, Success and Sustainability”. The Government were clear about the importance of financial transparency, which is of great importance at present to my constituents and others across the country.

As democracy develops in the overseas territories, we must ensure that the transparency that goes with a well functioning democracy is also evident in their financial and taxation affairs. When we work with the overseas territories, and the British taxpayer makes a contribution to assist them, we cannot have a situation in which businesses and individual UK citizens might use them to avoid paying tax. We need to work with them to ensure that international principles on fair dealing in taxation matters are a central part of their developing democracy.

It is hugely important that the connection that the CPA has developed through visits over a number of years should continue. We should try to encourage more Members of Parliament to take part in such visits. There are many new Members, some of whom have arrived here only in the past month or so, and they need to know the importance of engaging with the overseas territories and with other countries beyond the UK and the important role that parliamentarians play in ensuring that good governance is spread across the world.

I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend for their hard work, for which they are not thanked often enough. There is huge respect abroad for the work of the CPA and the Inter-Parliamentary Union, and our colleagues abroad value the commitment of this Parliament—the mother of Parliaments—to developing institutions in countries that are building a level of democracy that we want to encourage.

I am pleased to support the thrust of the White Paper, which was published earlier this year. Clearly, it builds on the 1999 White Paper published by the then Foreign Secretary, Robin Cook, under the previous Government. The Opposition have noted the commitments made to the overseas territories, and we strongly support applying the principle of self-determination to them. We want to ensure that they have a close link with this country, but we also want, in an age of devolution, to ensure that they have sufficient autonomy to deal with their individual circumstances and to build a democratic system appropriate to them.

[Ian Lucas]

That is certainly the case. That work is often unseen; it is demanding and difficult and involves much discussion and thought. Much assistance is given to overseas territories, which have the difficult task of designing government—something that has taken 1,000 years in this place. It is hugely important to share our experience.

[Thomas Docherty]

My hon. Friend is setting out a compelling argument. Does he agree that lending our expertise to promote local development is about not just political expertise but civil service expertise? I am thinking, for example, of the work the Department of Energy and Climate Change can do to help the Falkland Islands as they prepare for hydrocarbon exploration, and the work the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs can do to help protect the fisheries and the natural environment in the Caribbean.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your guidance this morning, Dr McCrea. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on securing the debate and generously allowing the time to be changed, and on the informed and articulate way in which he introduced it. I was keen to hear of his prescient and visionary visit to St Helena all those years ago. He will be delighted, as I think the whole House is, that the airport is predicted to open in 2016. I know from his remarks that he is ambitious to visit many of the other territories, but I hope that he will find time to return to St Helena to benefit from the airport, once it is open. I also congratulate the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, which does an enormous amount of significant work. In particular, I congratulate Andrew Tuggey on his professional and detailed work to ensure that the CPA is such a success in building relationships and sharing knowledge between Parliaments. Long may that continue.

I thank the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) and my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge), who, sadly, is no longer in his place, for the work that they have done recently, particularly in the Turks and Caicos Islands. I look forward to discussing with them the report, which I have seen, and how to pursue the lessons that they think can be learned. I also thank the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) for his positive and thoughtful contribution.

I want to respond to specific points made in the debate, but also to take the opportunity, if Members will bear with me, to respond to comments by the hon. Members for Dunfermline and West Fife and for Wrexham about the projection made at the joint ministerial council last week. The JMC builds on the White Paper published in June, which sets out a strong and positive vision for the territories to build on their excellent facilities and ensure that, where appropriate, they can proudly retain their links with the UK for present and future generations. The White Paper sets out clearly the benefits and responsibilities of the relationship for the territories and the United Kingdom. As the hon. Member for Wrexham pointed out, it builds on work done by the previous Government as well, but we thought it important to set out in a White Paper the UK Government’s fundamental responsibilities and objectives to ensure the security and good governance of the territories and their peoples.

I want to say a little about the priorities for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in driving UK Government apparatus to support the development of the overseas territories. We should focus on three areas: building stronger links with the UK; getting the territories the support they need; and working together on good governance, financial management and economic planning, where necessary. My priority in the first strand of the work is to encourage more trade and investment to benefit both the territories and the UK. I have already had the opportunity in my time as the relevant Minister to visit the British Virgin Islands, Anguilla and the Turks and Caicos Islands. That allowed me to see for myself what opportunities exist. Those are not just in the sectors where some of the territories are already strong; there may be opportunities to assist them in diversifying their economic base, whether by expanding financial services, assisting with UK investment in tourism, or using UK companies to help build and develop infrastructure. To that end, Lord Green, the Minister for Trade and Investment, and I discussed those issues with territory leaders and a selection of business representatives last Monday in the Foreign Office, and that meeting has the potential to be significantly productive.

The point that I want to emphasise is that building stronger links with the territories is not just down to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, but is a cross-Whitehall effort. Every Department has written a paper setting out how it can help. Eight of my ministerial colleagues met the territory leaders last week. The Department for International Development is doing particularly valuable and significant work, particularly in St Helena, Montserrat and Pitcairn, and through its temporary assistance in the Turks and Caicos Islands.

Another important area of work is the strengthening of political links with territory leaders. That was the thrust of the JMC last week. We have upgraded the meeting to make it our annual summit, which enabled us to discuss a substantive and significant agenda and to agree for the first time a detailed communiqué setting out an ambitious programme of joint working for the year ahead. If colleagues have not seen that joint communiqué I would urge them to look at it, because it responds to the sensible and correct point made by the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife about the action points and work streams that will flow from the JMC towards the next one, across a range of areas. I see the focus of the UK Government in the year ahead as assisting the territories with their priorities, rather than what we think their priorities should be. I took territory leaders to No. 10 Downing street to meet the Prime Minister—I understand that it was the first time that a British Prime Minister has met all the overseas territory leaders collectively—and the event was very well received and a positive time in all our diaries.

The second goal in my list of priorities is to make sure that the territories have the support they need. That was a common theme in the speeches this morning. We already provide significant development support, of which perhaps the most obvious example is the £350 million that we have provided for Montserrat since the volcanic crisis of 1995 to 1997, which destroyed the capital and economy; also, £247 million has gone to St Helena to build the airport, and for other aspects of its development.

In the context of supporting the territories to develop, a key element is making links with the Commonwealth. My right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden will be pleased to hear that that is a significant thrust of our efforts, set out in the White Paper. As part of that approach, the secretary-general of the Commonwealth came to the JMC and made a presentation. He received questions and responded to points that were made, and said that he greatly valued the part played in the life of the Commonwealth by the overseas territories. I can reassure him that we are working with the secretariat to explore what more can be done. The territories already participate in some areas—not just the CPA, important though that is. Some of them have participated in events aimed at supporting small island states, which have been particularly valuable as the territories have many challenges in common with other small island states elsewhere in the world, including some governance challenges. We continue to encourage the secretariat to invite the overseas territories to participate in Commonwealth meetings.

It might help if I explained why we are in the situation we are in. We very much agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden and the Foreign Affairs Committee that there should be a more formal tie between the overseas territories and the Commonwealth family, in the form of observer or some other status but, as Members will know, membership of the Commonwealth has to be agreed by a consensus of all Commonwealth Heads of Government, and the membership category is that of “sovereign state as full member”. In 2007, the Heads of Government endorsed the recommendation of the Commonwealth committee on membership not to establish any other status.

Officials have discussed different categories of membership with Commonwealth members, and it will come as no surprise that at the joint ministerial council last week territory leaders raised the matter with me, with other colleagues who were there and with the secretary-general. I have spoken to the Minister of State at the Foreign Office who has responsibility for the Commonwealth to see if we can work together to find a solution. Indeed, the Foreign Secretary told the Foreign Affairs Committee back in 2011:

“We are exploring the possibility of creating observer or associate member status of the Commonwealth, from which many overseas territories would benefit. We are still continuing to explore that possibility.”

[Thomas Docherty]

I am sure that the territories will be heartened by that. It would, however, be remiss of me not ask whether that was seen to be for Crown dependences as well as for territories.

[Mark Simmonds]

The constitutional relationships with overseas territories and with Crown dependences are very different, but the ongoing discussions should certainly involve both.

I want to move on to important issues that some Members have raised: good governance, financial management and economic planning. We take very seriously the responsibilities for the security and good governance of the territories, and we believe that what is good enough for the UK should be good enough for the overseas territories as well. One key aspect of the White Paper was the commitment to strengthen training and exchanges between the public services in the territories and the UK. Our jubilee programme, which is worth £500,000, will fund some of the exchanges, with UK civil servants going to overseas territories to assist in building capacity and in training public servants through the civil service learning service, and overseas territories public servants being facilitated to come to the UK.

On 16 October, I opened the first meeting, in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, of the heads of public services, one purpose of which was to exchange best practice across a range of important areas for further work including procurement, codes of conduct for Ministers, parliamentarians and public services, and e-government—an area in which we think we can do significantly more together. However, as the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife rightly said, it is not just about overseas territories learning from us; there are things we can learn from them.

Democracy is flourishing in most overseas territories, and I am delighted that the new Turks and Caicos premier, Dr Rufus Ewing, was able to attend the joint ministerial council last week. He was extremely warmly welcomed, and he made a significant contribution to all our debates. It is an excellent and positive development that democracy has returned to the islands after a difficult period. It is important also to recognise that all overseas territory constitutions are different. They have developed over time, most of them have been updated and they are not necessarily set in stone; they need to be debated and discussed over the coming years.

All Members who contributed to the debate mentioned election observers. We rightly encourage observers to monitor elections all over the world, to promote internationally accepted standards, and we encourage other confident and open democracies, including the territories, to welcome observers.

I have to say that we are slightly disappointed that Bermuda has not recognised the need for election observers. The Governor of Bermuda has suggested to the Premier that as a sign of a mature, advanced and open democracy the country might invite an external independent team—perhaps a Commonwealth Parliamentary Association group—to observe its elections, but unfortunately the Government have decided not to do so. I raised the issue with the Bermudan Attorney-General and Minister of Justice last week, and she assured me that she would reflect our views to the Premier. Interestingly, the example I gave her was the comparison with North Korea, which the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife mentioned earlier. It is a positive sign, rather than a negative one, to accept external election observers.

The hon. Member for Wrexham is absolutely right about the need for more elected politicians to be involved as election observers. Although civil servants play a significant and important role, politicians can often bring a slightly different perspective—perhaps over a longer period, including during the campaigning before the election and what may or may not happen immediately afterwards, depending on whether it has been successful. I support the hon. Gentleman’s train of thought in that area.

The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife talked about the electoral registration officers—EROs—in the overseas territories, and particularly in the Turks and Caicos Islands. We have included a partnership in TCI, and elsewhere, with an experienced UK election official. In TCI, the official supported the practical planning for the preparation of the new electoral roll, the training of election officials, and an arrangement for the counting and announcement of results.

As I mentioned, we have set up the jubilee programme to support training and exchanges between public servants in the territories and the UK, and a priority is to foster and support networks of professionals across the territories. I think that we will commend to the overseas territories the idea of a network of EROs, so that lessons can be learned and best practice put in place for future elections.

The hon. Member for Wrexham was absolutely right to speak about transparency in all financial matters. He will notice that in the White Paper there are two or three strands to that. The first is to ensure that overseas territories have in place proper legislation for appropriate and prudent fiscal and financial management. The Turks and Caicos Islands and the British Virgin Islands have that, as now do the Cayman Islands. The second strand is to ensure that we have proper, transparent, competitive tendering for procurement, so that there is no longer any opportunity for shenanigans. The UK Government have played a significant role in building capacity and in providing advice and training to enable that to happen.

I turn to the specific point about responsible fiscal and tax arrangements. Given the discussions held last week, previous actions relating to the overseas territories and the detail set out in the communiqué, both the UK and the overseas territories’ Governments accept the requirements to comply with international standards on tax transparency and financial regulation.

Tackling financial crime is important, as was set out at the JMC. Bermuda, the BVI and Cayman have tax information exchange agreements with the UK. The OECD, a global forum, says that the overseas territories meet tax transparency standards. I have met on a couple of occasions the impressive team that regulates the financial services sector in the British Virgin Islands, and there is a real desire in that sector to ensure that it keeps up to speed with international standards, which is what it is doing.

Overseas territories’ tax rates, of course, are their responsibility; individual territories have the right to set the tax rates appropriate for them. On secrecy, which the hon. Member for Wrexham alluded to, I would argue that they are at least as compliant as major financial centres in meeting international standards. We also have to be clear that revenues from the financial services sector make a huge contribution to ensuring that those overseas territories are self-funding, self-supporting and self-reliant.

Finally, the significance and importance of the relationship between the UK and the overseas territories has never been higher up the political agenda.

[Thomas Docherty]

The Minister is doing an excellent job of setting out in some detail the Government’s position on a range of matters. I appreciate that he has to cover a large number of issues, but before he finishes may I press him to confirm that the Government have full confidence in Governor Todd? The Minister will be aware that there has been media interest in the Turks and Caicos about the work that Governor Todd continues to do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Simmonds]

I apologise to my right hon. Friend. I was not avoiding air passenger duty; I just did not see the piece of paper I had written it on.

My right hon. Friend will not be surprised to hear that I was lobbied vociferously both by the leaders of overseas territories in the Caribbean last week and by the wider Caribbean community. He will also be aware not only that there was a review of the operation of APD but that there was a meeting fairly recently, between representatives of the Caribbean high commissioners here in London and a Treasury Minister, to discuss APD further and to understand the issues.

I suggested to both the territories’ leaders and to those elsewhere in the Caribbean that there had already been significant discourse between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Treasury, and that discourse continues. Those Caribbean leaders need to provide us with evidence of the negative impact of APD, particularly on the tourist industry. Mixed messages and mixed evidence are coming through so far.

[Thomas Docherty]

The Minister may not be aware that the Eastern Caribbean economic union has seen a 20% drop in passengers from the UK since APD was introduced. In comparison, there has been a 1% drop in passengers going to the east coast of the United States, although I might be wrong. There is clearly evidence that the Caribbean is being disproportionately hit by the current APD arrangements.

[Mark Simmonds]

That is interesting, because it is not uniformly the case. There was a drop back in 2009, but that has not remained consistent, nor is it consistent across the board. There are countries in which tourism has gone back up, which is why it is a complex issue to analyse. We are aware of the issue, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden is right to put it in the way that he did. We are still in listening mode.

Middle East

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

May I press the Foreign Secretary to say more about future consultations with his fellow EU Ministers on Gaza, and what consultations he is having with the Quartet’s special representative to the region?

[Mr Hague]

We had the whole EU Foreign Affairs Council meeting yesterday, from which the conclusions are published. It made calls very much in line with what I have said to the House in terms of the need to end rocket attacks on Israel, but also stated our support for a negotiated ceasefire. The whole of the European Union spoke clearly together on that yesterday. Of course, we also regularly discuss matters with Tony Blair, the Quartet’s envoy to the Palestinians: most recently, I spoke to him about this nine or 10 days ago, and my colleagues are in constant touch with him. We will see whether there can be a role for the Quartet in the coming weeks in attempts to restart negotiations on the peace process.

Oral Answers to Questions

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Tuesday 30th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)]

4. What recent reports he has received on progress in uniting Syrian opposition forces around a credible transition plan for a post-Assad Syria.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

6. What recent reports he has received on progress in uniting Syrian opposition forces around a credible transition plan for a post-Assad Syria.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hague]

That is of course a difficult thing to do because of the situation in Syria. The Arab League had a monitoring mission; then there was a United Nations monitoring mission. All of them found it impossible to do their job because the regime did not keep its word and fighting continued, so that is not on the table at the moment in Mr Brahimi’s proposals. I will discuss with Mr Brahimi this afternoon what his next proposals will be. We continue to work for a diplomatic solution and to advocate the creation of a transitional Government in Syria, but so far our efforts to do so have been blocked or not carried forward by Russia and China.

[Thomas Docherty]

Given that we cannot fully track where UK donations are going, may I press the Foreign Secretary to explain how we are ensuring that they are not ending up in the hands of jihadist forces?

[Mr Hague]

The first thing to say is that our assistance is non-lethal. We are providing to the opposition equipment such as generators, communications equipment, water purification kits and things of that kind. We make every effort to track such equipment and ensure that we know where it is going, but as I have explained to the House before, the risks that we take in this area are outweighed by the risk of not giving any assistance to such groups and to civilian populations in Syria, who are in a dire situation. The balance of risk suggests that we should give assistance to them.

EU Sanctions (Iran)

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

My hon. Friend will see many estimates and much speculation, and it is best to take all of them with a pinch of salt. Iran is currently enriching uranium to 20%, which is not sufficiently high grade for a nuclear weapon but creates a larger amount of uranium that, at a later stage, could be enriched quite rapidly to 90% and more, which is a faster process. There are many different estimates of how long that could take, depending on the quantity involved and the number of centrifuges available. He will see estimates of numbers of months rather than years for how long it would take go beyond the 20% level to the higher enriched level. What we do know is that this has become a sufficiently urgent problem that we have to address, with the international community showing unity and resolve, and that is what we are doing with these measures.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I am sure Members on both sides of the House understand the need for a longer lead-in time so that our European neighbours can seek alternative sources of energy, but if they were able to do so quicker than anticipated would the sanctions be brought forward?

[Mr Hague]

I do not anticipate the sanctions being brought forward. This is the result of a long and complex negotiation over the last few weeks. But I do anticipate that purchasers of Iranian oil in the European Union will decline steadily. It is not a continuous amount and then a cliff-edge effect. The effect of the phasing and the coming into force on 1 July is that remaining purchases will be declining long before then.

Oral Answers to Questions

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham)]

I certainly share my hon. Friend’s concern about continuing persecution, particularly of Movement for Democratic Reform MPs. There was the dreadful case of the recent arrest of Lynette Karenyi allegedly for insulting the President. Obviously, the immediate priority for Zimbabwe is preparation for the referendum on the constitution and making sure that the road map to credible free and fair elections is in place.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

T7. What steps are the Government taking in the coming year further to strengthen the parliamentary systems in our overseas territories?

[Mr Bellingham]

I would like to thank the hon. Gentleman and, indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns) for participating in the mission to observe the British Virgin Islands elections in November. We believe that having observers is good practice for open democracies like ours and the overseas territories. This is highly relevant to the Turks and Caicos Islands where we hope to have elections later this year if the milestones continue to be met.

British Embassy (Tehran)

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

Clearly, from what I have said, we are not advocating a military strike by anybody. I have often said in the past that although the possession of nuclear weapons by Iran would be a calamity for the world, it is quite possible that military action against Iran would be calamitous. I absolutely stand by that.

I do not think that my hon. Friend should dismiss so lightly the IAEA report, which referred to the agency’s serious concerns regarding credible evidence about the military dimensions of the Iranian nuclear programme. My hon. Friend should weigh that a little more heavily.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I am slightly troubled by some of the triumphant cheering that we heard behind the Foreign Secretary when he announced the closure of the embassy. Government Members would do well to show caution about the path they seem so eager to head down.

The Foreign Secretary has briefly mentioned both Turkey and the United Arab Emirates. May I press him to say a little more about the Government’s dialogue with other Governments in the region, and particularly with the Gulf Co-operation Council?

[Mr Hague]

We are in constant touch with those nations, of course. I spoke to Turkey’s Foreign Minister twice last night. He spoke, as I did, to the Iranian Foreign Minister, expressing Turkey’s outrage about these events and asking for the protection of our diplomatic staff. We are in constant diplomatic touch with the Gulf states, which also share our outrage about what has happened. As I mentioned in my statement, the United Arab Emirates has been able to give us practical help in the evacuation of our staff. A large number of the flights out of Tehran go to the UAE, so we have been in close touch with it about that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

4. What recent discussions he has had with his US counterpart on Afghanistan.

[The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)]

I meet Secretary Clinton regularly and last discussed Afghan security, political and economic issues with her on the eve of President Obama’s state visit here.

[Thomas Docherty]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his answer. I hope that he will take the opportunity to convey both our thanks to the Secretary of State for the work of General Petraeus and our full confidence that General Allen will take that forward in the coming period. Will he discuss with the Secretary of State the way in which we can involve women more in the future of Afghanistan?

[Mr Hague]

I have conveyed those thanks. In fact, I will meet General Petraeus later this week, and will once again convey them to him. Women have a very important role, in our view, in the future of Afghanistan. I have met women students at Herat university, and a conference for women who could play a leading role in bringing peace to Afghanistan was held at the same time as the Kabul conference last year. That is an agenda that the United States and the United Kingdom want to push. Secretary Clinton is foremost in doing so, and we will support her.

Afghanistan and Pakistan

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway). I thank him for, and congratulate him on, the quality of his Committee’s reports, particularly the last report on this subject.

It was a disappointment to hear the Prime Minister present a statement that was very much the traditional one of unreasonable optimism, of exaggerating the threat of terrorism from the Taliban, which is almost non-existent—there is a threat from al-Qaeda, but not from the Taliban—and of ignoring altogether the most optimistic sign: namely, the possibility of talks with the Taliban.

We have heard so much accentuating the positives and ignoring the negatives. The Prime Minister spoke of the progress with the Afghan army and police, but said not a word about the fact that NATO delivered the final blow by bringing the helicopter in following the recent attack on the Intercontinental hotel, and made no mention of the group of UN workers who were lynched by a mob, even though they were being protected by the Afghan police and army. Nor did he mention the most depressing incident, when 500 prisoners, many of them Taliban who were captured at grievous cost in blood and treasure, escaped, almost certainly with the collusion of local Afghans. Those 500 are now free to attack our soldiers again.

I am concerned greatly by our attitude. We are trying to deny the truth and to protect ourselves, but there are no good reasons for that. It is extremely wounding to the families of the bereaved to suggest that the cause in which their loved ones died bravely was a noble but vain one, but we must get that across. The Prime Minister has a difficult task to convince the country that we must not only talk to but negotiate with the enemy. That will be difficult for the relatives or loved ones of the fallen.

It is disappointing that the Prime Minister did not give a clear answer on the hurt that will be caused if the plan to take the remains of the fallen to Brize Norton continues. They would then be taken via a circuitous route that avoids the most populated areas. Local people, supported by many of the families of the bereaved, say that they want and appreciate the opportunity to give public expression to their grief, as happened in Wootton Bassett. The public would like to pay their respects as they have done before. No impression should be left that there is any attempt by the Government or local people to deny the country the chance to pay its tributes and accept the true effects of war.

That has been done twice before. Last year on a Monday and a Tuesday, the names of the fallen were announced, but that was at a time when the House did not have the maximum attendance, or the attention focused on it, that it has at Prime Minister’s Question Time when those names are announced. It is impossible now, because of the rules of the House, to do what I have done in the past, which is to read out the names of the fallen in Iraq and Afghanistan. That is now forbidden. I would not look forward to doing that again, though, because to read the names of the fallen in Afghanistan and the thousands with serious injuries would take about an hour and a half, if I was to include their ranks and give a suitable pause to each one. None the less, that is the most effective way of getting across to the House the consequences of decisions that we took.

I was grateful to see the report on Helmand on BBC 2. It is worth remembering that, as has been repeated, politically we went into Helmand because senior politicians believed we would be there for three years and hoped that not a shot would be fired. We are grateful for the evidence given to the Foreign Affairs Committee and to the Public Administration Committee in which we saw the incredibly trivial reasons we went into Helmand. At that point, we had lost two soldiers in combat—five in other regions—but now it is 375. A written report to the FAC attributed it to the hubris of the Foreign Office, which felt that it might suddenly become a footnote. The conflict in Iraq was coming to an end and it wanted to be in the limelight. The military use the expression, “We must use them or lose them”, knowing that if their battle groups are suddenly stood down, there is the threat of major cuts in a future defence review.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Although I disagree with my hon. Friend, I have huge respect for his principled stance. However, when the Chief of the Defence Staff and the Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff came before the Defence Committee only three weeks ago, that was not the reason they gave for the Army going into Helmand. They gave completely different reasons: there was a job that had to be done, and if it was not done by the British, it would fall to one of our partners in the international security assistance force.

[Paul Flynn]

The evidence is in the reports from both Committees—in evidence from a distinguished former ambassador in Kabul and from two senior people in the civil service to the PAC. The evidence is clear. One witness said that no attention was paid to the national interest. It is difficult to see where on earth the national interest lay in stirring up a hornets’ nest in Helmand, but we know the result. This was a peaceful province. We went in to ensure reconstruction, but the result, tragically, was the loss of an unknown number of lives—possibly 9,000—and there was no reconstruction. Instead there was destruction on a massive scale from collateral damage alone. We set up posts that we defended at huge cost in lives to our own people and to the others.

This is a calamity on a scale nearly unprecedented in our military history—and that is saying something. When we went in, we did not take a decision in the House, but we had a debate. In that debate, someone said that this would be worse than the charge of the Light Brigade. This time Blair to the left of them, Bush to the right of them, holler’d and thunder’d:

“Theirs not to reason why,

Theirs but to do and die:

Into the valley of Death”,

into the mouth of Helmand, drove the 5,000. Before, there were two dead; now it is 375. That is three times the number killed in the charge of the Light Brigade and twice the number killed in the Iraq war, and I challenge anyone to come up with any improvements that resulted from the incursion into Helmand. What is better now? It was peaceful when we went in. There was no threat.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving me the chance to intervene on him again. The Chief of the General Staff, Peter Wall, and the Chief of the Defence Staff made it absolutely clear to the Defence Committee that if we had not gone into Helmand, the Taliban would have moved north towards Kabul. It is completely untrue to say that Helmand was a peaceful province; or rather, it was peaceful only because the Taliban had complete control over the area.

[Paul Flynn]

I was not present on the Committee, but I saw the sitting on the Parliament channel and was profoundly unimpressed by the evidence given. However, I do not want to dwell on this issue; I want to give other people a chance to speak—I have the advantage of speaking early. I believe that at some point an investigation has to be conducted into why we went into Helmand. Of course it cannot be done now, while we are still there, but I believe that the story revealed will be one of military incompetence and political weakness. We are in the position now—the hopeful time—of talking to the Taliban. I do not know why the Prime Minister does not emphasise this more, but for the first time we are in the position of taking practical steps to build peace that would result in bringing our troops home.

The alternative is that we are currently in a period like that the Americans found themselves in in 1970 and 1971, when they knew that the war was coming to an end in Vietnam. We know that there is no happy ending in Afghanistan, and we should not build up the prospect of an Afghanistan that will somehow be like a Scandinavian democracy or anything of the sort. The ending will be messy.

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[Mr Baron]

The bottom line is that there are various factions of the Taliban, but the relationship between the Taliban and al-Qaeda is very complex and not well understood. I could return the question and ask: how is it that, given that the fundamental differences between the two are clear, we are failing to explore them? At the end of the day, peace is not made with friends but with enemies. We have got to initiate talks.

These two distinctions—the distinction between the key objective and the four main goals, and the distinction between the Taliban and al-Qaeda—are very important. If we are trying to build a more stable and secure Afghanistan and make it a better country, we will in all probability have to beat the Taliban. If, on the other hand, we are just trying to make sure that Afghanistan is free of al-Qaeda, we might not have to defeat the Taliban. That shows the importance of the two distinctions. What they lead one on to believe is the need for the Americans and the British to open meaningful and non-conditional talks with the Taliban in order to explore common ground.

[Thomas Docherty]

It is certainly the understanding of the Defence Committee that our role is to place the Afghan national security forces on a footing where they can deal with security. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that it is not about beating the Taliban, as the mission goal is to get the ANSF to a point where they can take control of their country.

[Mr Baron]

In an ideal world I would agree with the hon. Gentleman, but the report makes it clear that there are severe doubts about the ability of the Afghan national security forces to take over once we leave, despite all the money and the training that have gone in. The fact that the ANSF could not protect UN personnel in areas that had been handed over and were deemed to be safe illustrates the problem that we face. There is not a uniform view on this matter, as it is worthy of note that there are severe reservations about whether the Afghan security forces will be in a position to take on that role, come the deadline.

Suggestions have been made that preliminary talks have taken place. This is welcome news. The delisting from UN sanctions of 18 former senior members of the Taliban is perhaps part of that process. However, I have concerns about the substantive nature of these talks. Until very recently, the American view has been that America will talk to the Taliban only if they lay down their arms and accept the constitution. Frankly, that is living in a dream world. The Taliban will not be beaten and they will not lay down their arms.

History suggests—we could look at counter-insurgency campaigns in Malaya, for example—that not one of the preconditions for a successful counter-insurgency campaign exists in Afghanistan. There is no control of the borders; the troop density levels are insufficient; we do not have the support of the majority of the population; and we certainly do not have a credible Government in place. Not one of the preconditions exists. The Taliban are not going to lay down their arms and simply walk away, particularly now that we have declared our hand with the deadlines.

I believe that the time has come for the British Government to press the Americans to have non-conditional talks with the Taliban. That is crucial. Just holding preliminary talks will get us nowhere. They have to be non-conditional. We need to remind the Americans that it is possible to talk and fight at the same time, as we proved in Northern Ireland. However, it was the very nature of those talks—the fact that they were unconditional—which played such a key role in bringing the IRA into the peace process. The American wish to see the Taliban and al-Qaeda sever all contact must be part of a settlement, rather than a precondition. I believe that the decapitation strikes on the Taliban leadership should end, because there must be a degree of trust in the negotiations. If the last 10 years have shown us anything, they have shown us the Taliban’s ability to replace one generation of leaders with another.

Given the cost to the United States in blood and treasure, this will not be easy for US politicians. There will be those in the Democratic party who will think about human rights, women’s rights and so forth, and there will be those in the Republican party who will not want to talk to terrorists. At the end of the day, however, holding unconditional talks is the only way forward. Our brave soldiers can only buy time; now it is time for the US politicians to step up to the plate.

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[Mr MacShane]

Well, it is nice to have a true Scot here, rather than a nationalist.

I do not know of any recorded moment when any British general giving evidence to any parliamentary or public inquiry has admitted he got things wrong. It is in their contract that generals are always right. If they are let down, it is the fault of the politicians. Before the election we were told continually by Labour Members that it was the Prime Minister’s fault for not providing enough Chinook helicopters and reinforcements, and that Ministers were responsible for the fact that we were not succeeding in Afghanistan. It is a tribute to my colleagues on the Front Bench that they have not adopted those rather shoddy tactics—as some might have been tempted to do—in respect of the handling of the conflict since May last year.

[Thomas Docherty]

As a member of the Defence Committee and the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife, I can tell my right hon. Friend that when the Chief of the Defence Staff and Chief of the General Staff appeared before the Defence Committee, they did put their hands up and say mistakes had been made when going into Helmand. Perhaps that was the first time that that happened, but the Army has admitted it made mistakes.

[Mr MacShane]

I am glad to hear it, but frankly—I do not want to quote Bismarck and the Balkans and Pomeranian grenadiers—I weep every Wednesday when the poor Prime Minister has to come to the Dispatch Box and yet again read out the name, or perhaps names, of a dead British soldier, and for what? I cannot find an answer to that question.

To give the Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman, the hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), and his colleagues their due, they admit that, because one of their report’s key conclusions, on page 83, is that

“at a strategic level, we seriously question whether the efforts expended…have a direct connection to the UK’s core objective, namely the national security of the UK”.

That is absolutely right; the Select Committee Chairman has summed it up there—it is written down. It is a Foreign Affairs Committee conclusion, and it should be at the forefront of all of our discussions on Afghanistan. There is no longer any connection between UK national security and our men going out on patrol and being shot dead by the Taliban.

The Select Committee’s excellent and thorough report contains an account of a fine passage of questioning, which resulted in a most extraordinary confession by the Foreign Secretary. Committee members were trying to find out who is actually taking decisions on Afghanistan, and specifically in this instance the announcement to withdraw—or retreat—by 2015. Please can we avoid the absurd new euphemism of “draw-down”? It is a retreat and a withdrawal; that is what it is, so let us revert to plain English. The Foreign Secretary said that that decision was taken collectively in the National Security Council. My right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) asked whether the Defence Secretary had been consulted, and the Foreign Secretary replied:

“I am sure the Defence Secretary was consulted, but I cannot tell you when everybody was consulted. You would have to ask the Prime Minister.”

The Committee Chairman asked whether the Foreign Secretary could confirm

“that the decision wasn’t actually made in the Council.”

The Foreign Secretary said:

“It wasn’t a formal item in the National Security Council.”

This gives a fascinating insight into the mechanism of government. Where was the decision taken—by whom and how? We know it was no longer taken on a sofa, but we are none the wiser—[Interruption.] I have not been invited to No. 10 so I cannot check whether the sofa has gone. We do not know who took the decision and on what terms.

I would argue that we should be getting out a lot faster. Canada is out, the Netherlands is out, and Belgium is pulling out half of its men. The presence of international security assistance force-NATO allies in Afghanistan is now getting thinner and thinner, and, yes, it will be a withdrawal. No general wants to be the one who folds up the flag, climbs the ladder to the top of the embassy building and climbs in a helicopter and leaves, but stopping a war is, perhaps, as great a military art as starting one.

It would be fascinating to look at the official record of the Russian Duma for the 1980s, when the Russians were convinced that they were bringing a civilising mission to Afghanistan, to see whether debates such as this one were taking place. Then, of course, they faced the external foe of the Mujaheddin paid for by President Ronald Reagan and Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. There has been little reference to the fact that the Mujaheddin of the 1980s was a product of western foreign policy. We have heard in the past couple of days that Mr Reagan won the cold war, and part of that winning presumably included the driving of the Soviet Union and its troops out of Afghanistan. If that was the case, every Russian would wish that Mr Reagan had won it a lot earlier; they perhaps believe that the red army should never have gone into Afghanistan. However, the money sent by the west to create the Mujaheddin sowed dragons’ teeth that turned into dragons on 9/11 and 7/7, and it would be good if the people examining the history of that era had the honesty to say so.

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[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to make a contribution. I had not planned to speak, but having listened to speeches from Government and Opposition Members, I felt compelled to bring some sanity to our discussions.

I am a member of the Select Committee on Defence, and I have decided not to read the report by the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs because, as the House will know, we are producing our own report on Afghanistan and I thought that it might prejudice our inquiry—although I accept that there is probably a debate to be had about why two august Select Committees are doing reports on the same subject almost at the same time.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), who has left the Chamber, discussed, in a speech that did not just span 40 years but which seemed to go on for 40 years, the art of stopping the war. Perhaps I am being naive, but the way to do that is by winning the war, not by pulling out because we do not particularly like how it is going in the short term. I am slightly confused because I found myself agreeing more than would normally be the case with the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), who offered a great deal of common sense on the situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The Defence Committee had the opportunity to visit the United States a couple of months ago, and we spent a week or so at various locations, including US Central Command, the Pentagon and Norfolk. We were privileged to visit the Walter Reed hospital, where we met a number of what the Americans call wounded warriors—their very brave men and women who have suffered life-changing injuries. The Committee was overwhelmed not just by the courage and sacrifice of those very young men and women but by the fact that many of them were determined, despite the horrific injuries that they had suffered, to go back to Afghanistan, both to be with their comrades in arms and because they genuinely believed, despite what they had been through, that it was a fight worth having. If they did not see it through, the sacrifices that they and their friends had made would have been for naught. I was humbled by our meeting with those brave men and women.

On our visit we also met General Mattis and General Allen, with whom the Foreign Affairs Committee and others in the House will be familiar. It is fair to say that we were pleased when President Obama announced that General Allen would succeed General Petraeus as commander in Afghanistan. If there is a lesson from the past 10 years, it is that continuity of command is crucial. There is no point in changing senior personnel and strategy every two or three years, whether in the military or in political leadership, and I hope that the Prime Minister will think carefully before he makes any moves in the next three years while the job moves towards completion.

I am uncomfortable with the Prime Minister’s statement this afternoon about withdrawal. There is an inconsistency in his logic. On the one hand he talked about conditions and progress, but he gave an arbitrary unilateral date of 31 December 2014, which sets a calendar against which the Taliban can measure progress. We should withdraw because the conditions allow us to do so, and because we have completed the missions on which we set out.

[Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)]

I share the hon. Gentleman’s general concern about an arbitrary time line, but if the US has set an arbitrary time line, given how dependent we are on the Americans’ scale of operation there, surely we have little choice but to match their arbitrary time line.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s point, and I shall respond briefly to it. It is not often that I say this, but the US has been more nuanced than we have. It is not something that the Americans do particularly well, and I am not sure that many of them can spell the word, but they have said that although that is their goal and they are beginning to pull out their surge troops, they are not absolutely committed to their end date.

There is a simple hypothetical question that the House may wish to consider: what if, as we get to the end of 2014, President Karzai says to President Obama and Prime Minister Cameron, who I expect will still be Prime Minister at that point, “We’re almost there but we need another six weeks, or another two months”? My understanding is that President Obama has made it clear that there would be an element of flexibility. Our Government have said that there is absolutely no flexibility. I think we need a plan B, and we need to have an element of flexibility built in, so that if it is a matter of extra weeks, or even a couple of months, a small number of combat troops may stay.

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

I share some concerns about the current strategy. Given that the support for the Taliban is, to some extent, a reaction to the presence of occupying forces, what would the hon. Gentleman define as completion?

[Thomas Docherty]

As I said earlier, completion of the mission is training up the Afghan national security forces to the level of troops and police that can take forward their own security. It is not about defeating the Taliban. It is about leaving Afghanistan in a stable condition.

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[Mr Spellar]

Similarly, the symbol of the end of the cold war was the appearance of McDonald’s in many capitals in eastern Europe.

We should also remember how much of Afghanistan’s ancient civilisation was destroyed by nihilist tribes, in a pattern not dissimilar to what is happening today. We need to focus on the process of political dialogue and reconciliation in Afghanistan, as well as on a political settlement in which enough Afghan citizens from all parts of the country have a stake. The central Government there also need enough power and legitimacy to protect the country from threats, from within and without. That first proposition depends on there being a new external settlement that commits Afghanistan’s neighbours to respecting its sovereign integrity, as well as a process by which the ex-combatants there can acquire civilian status and have an opportunity to gain sustainable employment and income.

Afghanistan will then require reconciliation. This will include ensuring that tribal, ethnic and other groups are represented and recognised. Parliament and parliamentarians should also be recognised and encouraged. In that context, we were all interested in, if not intrigued by, the proposal for an exchange of Speakers. We were wondering whether the Speaker might seek to delegate that responsibility, a prospect that caused some alarm to your predecessor in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I shall turn first to Pakistan, however. I say to the Chairman and other members of the Select Committee that, if I have a concern about the report it is that the content does not fully reflect its title, “The UK’s foreign policy approach to Afghanistan and Pakistan”. The section on Pakistan takes up only about six of the 97 pages, and looks largely at the effect on the campaign in Afghanistan of action in and by Pakistan. Frankly, the more important strategic issue is the impact of Afghanistan on Pakistan.

Pakistan is a country of 160 million people. It is the second-largest Muslim country in the world, and it has a significant military and nuclear capability. It is also, as the Foreign Secretary has rightly acknowledged on behalf of Britain, a country that has suffered considerable losses from fundamentalist terrorism, and it continues to do so. We need to think seriously about Pakistan’s concerns and prospects, and to take into account a factor that is sometimes overlooked—namely, its need to recover from the horrific flooding that it has experienced.

That is why the announcement of continuing aid to Pakistan by the Department for International Development is encouraging, and welcomed by the Opposition, especially the scaling up of investment in effective, non-fundamentalist education to £446 million a year by 2015. Pakistan faces, in the words of a DFID publication, “an educational emergency”, with 17 million children not in school, half the adult population and two thirds of the women unable to read or write—and the population is escalating. We have to be clear in this context that there is a considerable onus on the Pakistan authorities to ensure that the money reaches its intended recipients. As DFID says, aid is

“dependent on securing value for money and results and will be linked to the Government of Pakistan’s own progress on reform, at both the federal and provincial levels, including taking tangible steps to build a more dynamic economy, strengthen the tax base and tackle corruption.”

That places a clear obligation on Pakistan to improve its administration, especially in tax collection, to foster a more open and pluralistic society and, last but by no means least, to engage in dialogue to reduce tension with India, which occupies so much attention and resources in both countries. My right hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) mentioned the Indian obligations, and there is an obligation on both sides of the divide if dialogue is to be used to reduce that tension.

What of India and the other regional powers? They were mentioned by a number of hon. Members—the hon. Members for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) and for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) and particularly the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind). It is true that all the regional powers could seek to pursue their own separate interests, looking on Afghanistan as a zero-sum game. We should make no mistake; it certainly could be like that. Indeed, if the situation in Afghanistan unravels, it could end up being a negative-sum game for those countries. The creation of a black hole of political intrigue, anarchy and violence in Afghanistan could impact in very different but very significant ways on all its neighbours.

China, as we know, has considerable Islamic problems in its western province, but also has considerable investment in Afghan resources. Russia faces the potential of instability on its southern flank and also has a significant drugs problem. Iran has a minority group in Afghanistan and also feels the impact of the drugs trade. Turkey has growing regional influence. India has a long and historic, but also a current and dynamic, interest in Afghanistan. Part of our strategy for disengagement will thus depend very heavily on the extent to which the regional powers can co-exist and work together for a progressive solution for Afghanistan.

[Thomas Docherty]

Does my right hon. Friend share my concern about the role of Tehran in destabilising both Afghanistan and the wider region? Does he share my assessment that we cannot allow Tehran to continue down this destructive path indefinitely?

[Mr Spellar]

That is certainly to be encouraged, but Tehran will have a degree of involvement. It has a Persian minority within Afghanistan, it is a significant power within the region and it suffers considerably from the impact of the drugs trade on its own population. It will thus have to be engaged in its own interest.

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[Alistair Burt]

My hon. Friend is taking far too little notice of the improvement and strength of the Afghan national security forces in their own right. It is they who will carry on the fight on behalf of their people against those who threaten their state. To assume that this is a practice that only we are engaged in and that only we can be engaged in is unfair to the growing success and strength of the ANSF. That is the incentive for the future.

It is vital to recognise that the absence of combat troops does not mean a lack of interest from those who have created the conditions for what we hope will be a secure—

[Thomas Docherty]

Will the Minister give way?

[Alistair Burt]

No, I have only three minutes left.

Let me turn to the political settlement. Despite the military gains that have been made, it is common cause in the House that we need not just a military answer but a political settlement and reconciliation. We strongly support the Afghan-led efforts that are being made to encourage the process of integration and reconciliation. We support the work that has been carried out this year through various international conferences and by the High Peace Council as well as the direct engagement with the Taliban from the Afghan community on the basis of the conditions set by President Karzai: renouncing violence, cutting links with terrorist groups and accepting the constitution.

In answer to those who queried the issues to do with preconditions, let me say that our understanding is that the Afghan-led process is about those who are prepared to accept the conditions stated, not about meeting those conditions in the first place. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in his statement this afternoon, we are looking towards a situation in which the conditions are met but early negotiations might take place in a situation that is not clear. It is important that the conditions laid down by President Karzai are ultimately accepted. We welcome the engagement of the United States and the recent comments made by the Secretary of State about US involvement.

The third leg is the viable state. We should all pay tribute to the work done by DFID in particular, and I am pleased to welcome my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for International Development to this debate. From 2001 to 2011, DFID has spent £960 million in Afghanistan and over the next four years it will spend £712 million. We have seen improvements in education, health and the economy. May I also pay tribute to those outside Government, such as Karen Woo and Linda Norgrove, who gave their lives for the development work in which they were engaged, showing its importance?

I do not have time, I am afraid, to deal with Pakistan. I accept the comments made by the right hon. Member for Warley and perhaps I may write to him about the importance of Pakistan in the future. Engagement with Pakistan is crucial and we have productive intelligence work. It is essential that those in Pakistan are engaged both with Afghanistan and with dealing with the issues in their own country, which has suffered so much.

In conclusion, Afghanistan debates illustrate the depth of engagement of Members of the House in the issue. Our commitment is clear: notwithstanding the complexities for the country, its relationship with others in a region desperate for stability and the variable factors that will determine its future, our aim of a secure Afghanistan in the hands of its people, secure from its enemies and from those of the rest of us, can be realised.