Protection from Redundancy (Pregnancy and Family Leave) Bill

Theresa Villiers Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 21st October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Dan Jarvis]

I am very grateful to the hon. Member for her question. As I said earlier, she was incredibly helpful at the early stages of the Bill, and she is absolutely right to make that point. The benefit of the Bill will be felt across hundreds of thousands of households and families right across the country. Although the focus of my remarks to date has been on the impact it will have on women who are pregnant and new mums, the reality is that the benefits of the Bill extend right across the family unit. We know the official numbers are that 54,000 women lose their jobs every single year just because they are pregnant. As we can all imagine, that has a devastating impact on them, but also of course on the wider family unit. The hon. Member raises a very important question, and I completely agree with what she said.

I know there are some right hon. and hon. Members here today, and certainly a number of people and campaigners watching the debate, who would like—and this policy was previously advocated by the right hon. Member for Basingstoke—an outright ban on redundancies, as we have seen implemented in Germany. Not everybody will necessarily be familiar with the German model, so let me briefly explain it.

There are five pillars of the Maternity Protection Act that underwrite the ban in Germany. First, protection from redundancy begins the moment the employer knows that the employee is pregnant. Secondly, if an employer makes a pregnant worker redundant not knowing they are pregnant but then this information is disclosed, they must be reinstated and the protections apply. Thirdly, the local health authority must review each request from an employer to make a pregnant worker or a new mother redundant. This usually takes about three weeks in practice, and while this review takes place the pregnant woman will remain in employment. Fourthly, an employer cannot dismiss a pregnant worker or a new mother without permission from the health authority. Lastly, protections for mothers on maternity and parental leave extend to four months after it has been taken. That also extends to women who, very sadly, have experienced a miscarriage.

Although it may not be wholly translatable to the British system, there is little doubt over confusion and compliance under those rules. The Government have decided that, for the moment, they do not want to apply similar regulations here.

[Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)]

I want to express enthusiastic support for the Bill. It will plug an important gap in protection. Looking back at the proposals from my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Dame Maria Miller), we want to avoid a situation where, if there was a complete ban on all redundancies under any circumstances, that could mean that employers were having to retain employees when there was no longer work for them to do. The Bill is a reasonable compromise, as it is perhaps more difficult to take forward the previous proposals of my right hon. Friend.

[Dan Jarvis]

I am grateful to the right hon. Lady. She makes a helpful contribution. As she and other right hon. and hon. Members will understand, including the right hon. Member for Basingstoke, there are different views about this matter. In the end we have arrived at a reasonable and sensible compromise. The debate on that particular issue will continue, and if the Bill is successful there will be a further opportunity to debate such matters in Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Jarvis]

The hon. Lady raises a really helpful point, following the one made by the hon. Member for Ashfield (Lee Anderson). The nature of the Bill, and what we seek to achieve through its passage, speaks to the decency that I think we all want to see in our society. In the Bill, we have something in front of the House that is good for pregnant mums, good for new mums and good for families. It is also good for business, as it is in businesses’ own interest to be responsible employers and to make the most of their employees.

I very much hope that the Bill will get support from across the House. I sense that it will, and I am encouraged by that. I have spent a lot of time thinking about what the critique of the Bill would be and whether any right hon. or hon. Members would have issues or problems with it. I have tried as much as I possibly can to get around as many hon. Members as possible and have those conversations, but nobody has been able to say that they think there is anything wrong with the Bill. The only debate is around the extent of its ambition and whether the protections could be greater and longer. That is potentially a point of debate, but I hope that we now have the basis of a Bill that all decent right hon. and hon. Members will be able to support—fingers crossed.

[Theresa Villiers]

An important potential positive consequence of the hon. Gentleman’s Bill and further protection for women in the workplace is helping us to tackle our productivity problem in this country. If we can monopolise the vast resource of women in the workplace, including pregnant women and new mums, it will make us a more competitive nation, help us to plug skills gaps and make us more productive, which ultimately will raise living standards.

[Dan Jarvis]

The right hon. Lady’s point is spot on and she has made it very eloquently. I can see there is consensus. She is right that for a very long time we have grappled with the productivity challenge, and we are still grappling with it. This is part of how we can seek to address the complicated and difficult productivity challenge that we all know we face as a country. I am grateful to her for that useful intervention.

It would be helpful at this point to inject some real-life experiences into the debate so that the House can better understand what this Bill, if successful, might mean for women in the workplace. I am in receipt of a number of real-life cases of women who have suffered injustice simply because they were pregnant. There are many, and I must say some of them are genuinely shocking.

Emily got in touch with me a few weeks ago. She was made redundant from her job more than halfway through her pregnancy and just days before she would have qualified for statutory maternity pay. She is now attempting to appeal the decision on the grounds of pregnancy discrimination and is feeling targeted not only for being pregnant, but for working part time. Her company told Emily it would be making several people redundant, but instead it laid only her off. It did not follow a fair process and she was not offered any alternative employment. Stories such as Emily’s form part of the wider issues surrounding the inconsistent implementation of regulation 10.

--- Later in debate ---

[Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)]

It is a great privilege to follow some wonderful speeches, not least the one by my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken). I very much support the Bill, which plugs an important gap in our employment protections, and I commend the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) for introducing it. I welcome the cross-party support today and it is good to see the Minister in his place, ready to give the Government’s support.

The improvements in protection against redundancy for women who are pregnant or returning from maternity leave and people who are returning from shared parental leave or adoption leave are very welcome. We have heard from a number of colleagues about the unfairness that is still being perpetuated in the workplace. The Bill will help to resolve those matters. I believe that employment protection is one of the significant achievements of this Parliament. In this country, we have one of the most comprehensive systems of employment protection in the world. I am proud to have voted for a number of improvements to those protections over the years and I look forward to voting in favour of this one.

Ensuring fairness at work is one of the hallmarks of a modern economy and a civilised society. There is inevitably a power imbalance between employers and employees; there is economic power that rests with the employer. It is right for the legal system and the state to step in to help to rebalance that relationship and ensure that there are decent standards of treatment in the workplace. As many have pointed out, it is important to support young families and ensure that they are not subject to unfair treatment. The Bill provides a sensible compromise. I cannot see that the impact on employers would be excessive or negative. Indeed, as we have heard, ensuring high standards for women in the workplace potentially gives employers much better access to a wider labour pool, because it means that they are more attractive to talented and experienced women recruits, so there are real positives not just for employees, but for employers.

It is important to recall the point that I made in my intervention, which is that, in this country, we have a productivity problem. We have been grappling with that for the past 10 years. Part of the problem is due to people who are economically inactive. The Bill helps to ensure that women have the opportunities in the workplace that they deserve and that they are not forced back into economic inactivity. This is one of a range of measures that could help us to improve our productivity by getting the most from one of our greatest assets—women in the workplace and women in our population.

We can all be proud to be supporting another step in the road towards genuine gender equality. Like workplace fairness, this Parliament can be proud of the achievements of the past 100 years in remedying injustice dealt out to women. There is a debate about exactly when that started, but the Married Women’s Property Act 1882 was one of the first landmark decisions, which sought to remove the institutionalised discrimination and unfair treatment which, for millenniums, had characterised this country and others around the world. This Parliament can take some credit for many items of legislation over the years, which have, in essence, been dismantling the patriarchal systems that had been in place in previous centuries. The reality though is that there is still more to do, which is illustrated by the need to introduce a Bill such as this, and by the examples that we have heard today of the adversities that women continue to face.

I was particularly struck by the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster that the career paths of men and women after women become mothers are still so dramatically different. It is very welcome that we have seen the gender pay gap close in many respects, but there are still hurdles that mothers are asked to jump over in relation to their careers that their male competitors simply are not. I am pleased that we are taking a step towards addressing that, but I am sure that these matters will return to Parliament in many different ways over the years to come. This task of securing a truly fair society, where men and women have equal opportunities and are treated equally, continues to adapt as new challenges become apparent.

I close by reflecting on the fact that we are tremendously lucky to live in a country that has respect for the rule of law, that ensures that workers are treated fairly and cannot be summarily dismissed and, in particular, cannot be lightly dismissed in the event of pregnancy, maternity leave, or the return from maternity leave. It is important, on an occasion such as this, to reflect on the fact that, in many parts of the world, women are not so lucky. One of the most notorious examples of this is, of course, Iran, where we see, on a daily basis, women and girls out protesting and demanding fair treatment. They continue to face institutionalised discrimination in terms of their right to travel, their consent to marriage and, in many areas, their right to decide what they wear. I have found those protests inspiring. I hope that they do lead to democratic change in Iran. It is a place that has a shocking human rights record, and both men and women have suffered at the hands of a cruel regime.

This legislation is an illustration of the fact that we in this country take fairness seriously, we in this country believe that people should be treated fairly at work, and we in this country believe that women are entitled to equal treatment and equal opportunities. I commend this Bill to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lee Anderson]

I completely agree with my right hon. and gallant Friend, who makes a really good point.

We know this happens: the majority of single parents in this country are ladies—women—and the hurdles they have to go over on a daily basis just to get by in life are hard enough. As a Government and as a society, we are trying to get more people back into the workplace. We have a skills shortage and there are lots of jobs in the economy—there are over 1 million vacancies, and we need to plug that gap—but what are we doing in such situations? We are putting up obstacles and barriers, as we sometimes do to disabled people, and making it so difficult for them to get back into the workplace.

We are missing a trick, and it is costing the economy. It is also costing employers, because if they are not recruiting or keeping in the workplace a lady who has had children or is on maternity leave, they are missing a trick. They are not upskilling that person, and if they are not retaining that person, they have to go out and recruit somebody else and spend thousands and thousands of pounds getting them up to speed when that asset—that employee—is already there. We need to stop missing that trick, use a little bit more common sense in the workplace, get behind our brilliant women in the UK, because they are brilliant, and give them all the support they need.

[Theresa Villiers]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is particularly important to do this at a time when the cost of living is causing so much pressure on family finances? The last thing young families need at this point is for women to be forced out of the workplace because of unfair treatment.

[Lee Anderson]

My right hon. Friend is exactly right. As I say, we have an abundance of talented women in this country, and many of them are sitting in here today—I had to say that, did I not? We are putting up barriers and obstacles to these women, but they want to go out there, get into the workplace, earn good money, have good careers and contribute to society, and it is only right that we remove all these barriers in the workplace. So I welcome the Bill and wholeheartedly support it. I am going to shut up now because I have said enough, and I know there are one or two more speakers and the Minister wants to have his say about this.