Retail Crime

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Thursday 11th April 2019 Westminster Hall

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I pay great tribute to my near neighbour and right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (David Hanson) for his thorough introduction to the debate and his extensive campaigning on the issue. I also thank all other hon. Members who have contributed.

I represent the most beautiful and nicest constituency in Parliament; there is nowhere that quite compares with it. It is 240 square miles and contains many vibrant communities. There is also a strong sense of community. Almost any shop worker who lives in my constituency will speak about that strong sense of community; how much they enjoy their job, in many cases; and how important their shop is in the community. That is all true, but unfortunately, it is not true all the time.

One deeply concerning UK-wide statistic, which came from the excellent USDAW, is that more than 280 retail staff are violently attacked every day across the country. That should cause us to be very concerned. Those shop workers go to do their jobs in the same way that others go to do their jobs, and that level of attack is concerning.

In my constituency, we have a good mix of small and medium-sized stores, and a few supermarkets, and the bulk of them take the issue very seriously. I put on the record my particular thanks to the Co-op Group, however, not simply because I am a regular shopper at the Rhosllanerchrugog and Johnstown stores, but because it has sent briefings on individual constituencies and has had the honesty to say some of the bad things that have happened in its stores.

I do not like reading things word for word, but the Co-op gave three examples of things that happened in its stores in my constituency. The first example is:

“A drunk man came into the store and started abusing one of our colleagues. This colleague asked him to calm down and stop swearing. The bloke carried on shopping and on his way out carried on the abuse so he was escorted out of the shop. When outside, he started swinging his shopping bag and throwing punches. He ripped the colleague’s glasses of his face and threw them into the car park. He then ran off.”

This is the second one:

“Two hooded men came into the store with a large knife. One of them grabbed a colleague and put a knife to her neck, and the other one went behind the till and grabbed another colleague. They emptied the safe and the tills and ran into a waiting car.”

This is the third account:

“Four blokes came into the store, they threatened colleagues with a knife and nicked all the cigarettes that had just arrived from the delivery.”

The people affected by that are ordinary working people in our communities. In that case, it was in Clwyd South, but there are examples from across the country.

I welcome what the Co-op Group has done with its community fund. In addition to security measures and the like, it supports projects that tackle crime and crime prevention measures. Its corporate social responsibility in that regard is very much to be welcomed. Of course, we need to tackle the root causes as well as the problem itself.

Reflecting what everyone else has said, I want to say this to the Minister: whatever is happening at the moment—my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn spoke about that in great detail—it is clear that we have to do more. I echo the calls to make attacks on shop workers and other retail workers aggravated offences. When the Assaults on Emergency Workers (Offences) Act 2018 was going through Parliament, and in the campaign that preceded it, we heard many reasons why it was not possible. The campaign continued, and I am pleased to say that the Government supported it. That was very important. Many of us were co-sponsors of the Bill, and we worked on a cross-party basis. I am pleased that it got Government support.

As my right hon. Friend said, it is important that we look at creating an aggravated offence for attacks on shop workers, because shop and retail workers are a bit different from other workers. The argument will always be made that we cannot have aggravated offences against everyone. Clearly not, but the difference is that people know that shop workers have ready access to cash and have to handle it all the time.

[David Hanson]

Is not the key point the issue of age-related sales? Shop workers are upholding the law on behalf of the Government.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Absolutely so. I agree wholeheartedly. Those are the everyday dangers that shop workers have to face, and they should not have to do so. They have to deal with people who are being obstructive outside their store. I have heard examples of shop workers who have had to deal with people who did not want to pay 5p for a carrier bag. I urge the Government to commit to doing something more on this issue. Let us work together, because it is not right that people in those shops, whether in the beautiful constituency of Clwyd South or anywhere else around the country, are affected in that way.

Offensive Weapons Bill

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Wednesday 28th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

I do listen—I must disagree with the hon. Gentleman on that. The point I am making is that the laws that can protect shop workers are already in force, so it is not a question of making a new law because we hope that that will address the criminality, because those laws are already in place. There are public order offences, so where someone is rude or abusive, that is a criminal offence already. Our job here is to make law, but this is also sometimes about how it is applied on the ground, and that is what I am talking about. I am talking about saying to the NPCC and others, “What’s happening on these concerns colleagues are raising about how retail workers are being treated in their shops?” I know that this is an important issue, not only to Labour Members, but to my colleagues and to me. That is why if we can do nothing else, we should get the message out there that the law already exists to protect shop workers. We should focus on how that is pushed and put into effect.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

rose—

[Victoria Atkins]

I am just about to move on to the next topic, but of course I will give way.

[Susan Elan Jones]

I am grateful to the Minister for that. Does she realise that many shop workers across the country are scared to death about all this? They are scared to death of knives being pulled on them. This is no longer just a problem in our inner cities; it goes right across the country. This is happening in rural areas and in small towns. My view is that we need to make the legislation as strong as possible, not just to protect the shop workers, but to send a message to people out there that this is a really serious issue.

[Victoria Atkins]

I completely agree that we need to communicate the fact that the behaviour the hon. Lady described is utterly unacceptable, but she has given the example of a knife being pulled on a shop worker and legislation is already in place to deal with that. Furthermore, the independent Sentencing Council, which sets the guidelines for the judiciary across the country, has said that in that scenario the fact that the knife was pulled on a person in their line of work can be an aggravating factor. So the law is already there and we just need to make sure it is being used as effectively as possible, not just by our police, but by our judiciary.

On the point about serious violence more generally, the hon. Lady will know that we published the serious violence strategy in April. It has marked a step change in how we tackle serious violence, because we acknowledge that serious violence is no longer restricted to our large urban centres and is spreading out across the country, particularly with the rise of county lines. She will know that one of the drivers behind this rise in serious violence is drugs—the drug markets. A great deal of work is being done just on that one stream to tackle that.

For example, a couple of weeks ago we held an international conference, drawing together law enforcement and public health officials from across the world to talk about the rise in serious violence, because this is happening not only in the UK, but in other countries. From that conference, which I was able to attend, although sadly just for a little while, we could see the lessons that we can learn from other policing experts across the world and from public health officials. That is also why the Home Secretary has announced recently that we are looking into a consultation on making tackling serious violence a public health duty for local authorities—all arms of the state. That goes further than the models in Scotland and in Wales, which are often rightly cited as good examples, because we want to look into whether having a public duty will help with the sharing of information and the working together. Those of us who served on the Public Bill Committee and those of us who take a particular interest in this topic know that these things do not always work as well as they should.

Medicinal Cannabis

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. As part of the licensing process for the exceptional, limited-duration licence for Billy, the paediatric consultant at the hospital specifically stated that decision making about Billy’s long-term care with regard to medication and supervision of his treatment should be undertaken by the paediatric neurologist. We agree with that.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It seems to some of us that the biggest problem with the legalisation of this drug is the fact that it is called “cannabis”. Some of us share the Government’s view that cannabis should not be legalised for recreational use, but this is a totally different situation. While there is delay, children and adults are in serious suffering and, in some cases, may die. Given that organisations such as the MS Society are fully in favour of this legalisation, how long will it take the Government to act?

[Mr Hurd]

I understand the hon. Lady’s point, but I want to reassure her that the Government are very clear that this is a discussion about access to cannabis-based medicine and nothing else.

Rural Crime and Public Services

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 6th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Louise Haigh]

It may not surprise my hon. Friend to know that I am deeply unsatisfied with the resources available for policing and with the funding formula on which we base our police funding at the moment. She makes an important point. On recent visits to forces in the south-west, I was particularly struck by the challenges facing police in huge rural areas, such as those in her constituency.

In the Devon and Cornwall force, not only is the chief constable responsible for an area of almost 4,000 square miles, but he—and in this case it is a he—is also responsible for 500 miles of coastline and for 10 miles out to sea. That is an incredible challenge when we consider that my old force, the Met, has 44 officers per square mile, while Devon and Cornwall has 0.7 officers per square mile. In that context, it is useful to discuss the proposed merger of Devon and Cornwall with Dorset police force and the strong belief of both forces that the move would produce better working, better connectivity and a better presence in communities and that neighbourhood policing would become more of a priority.

I have had similar conversations in Warwickshire and West Mercia. Given how significantly crime is changing, perhaps it is time to look at the structure of policing in this country, particularly at how we can ensure a consistent approach across the country. It has been fantastic to see innovations in forces such as those around drones, the development of tech solutions in forces such as Avon and Somerset, and the use of tri-service officers—officers who are trained as police community support officers, fire officers and paramedics all in one. However, we must ensure that where best practice is evidence-based and effective, it can be rolled out across the country, so that we are not reinventing the wheel time and again.

At the heart of our policing model is, and must always be, community policing, but that is what has been most affected by eight years of austerity. Those rural community policing beats are essential in preventing, detecting and tackling crime in rural areas. Community officers are treasured in all our communities, and yet, in many rural forces, neighbourhood teams have been completely abolished or merged with response teams, which effectively means the same thing.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

I am delighted that my hon. Friend is making a really, really powerful speech that will resonate in many of our rural communities. I know that she will want to pay tribute to the great work of organisations such as Farm Watch. Those of us in rural areas are not scared of voluntary action working alongside statutory services, but where we do get angry is when there is not enough neighbourhood policing.

[Louise Haigh]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. True community policing and neighbourhood policing work very effectively with Farm Watch, Neighbourhood Watch and other voluntary organisations in our communities. We are not just talking about a police officer walking down the street with his hands in his pockets. True neighbourhood policing requires officers to engage and build relationships with communities and to grow trust in the police. Having grown up in South Yorkshire, I know that the policing of so many communities, particularly the hardest-to-reach communities, requires that approach in order to be able to police by consent. On top of all that, we have seen numerous rural police stations close—the symbol of a rural community’s relationship with its local police service and a symbol of the police’s commitment to those communities. There is strong evidence that they have contributed to the legitimacy of the police in the eyes of the public. Little wonder then that the National Farmers Union has found two worrying trends: first, that four in 10 people in rural areas fear crime, double that of individuals in urban areas; and secondly, that two thirds think that the local police fail to deal with the problems that matter to them—twice as many as the national average. Those figures show that the ability of the police to interpret and respond to the needs of rural communities is fading away, leaving those communities isolated.

--- Later in debate ---

[Victoria Atkins]

Absolutely. I do not claim there are boundaries when it comes to criminal behaviour. Indeed, we have heard from across the House how some criminals deliberately exploit county and constabulary boundaries, because they hope that that will cause investigations and so on to be more difficult for the police. We are very clear that we need the police to work together better. In fairness, I think they are doing that. There have been huge changes in the way police forces talk to each other and share information. On county lines for example, there is a great deal of work going on to co-ordinate and share intelligence, and we see this with the regional organised crime units.

The reformed policing landscape and the introduction of police and crime commissioners by the Government has supported community policing. We have enabled police and crime commissioners to work with local people to set priorities for their areas. They are the ones best placed to make decisions with their communities, rural or urban, based on their local knowledge and expertise.

The National Police Chiefs’ Council is also transforming its role and presence in dealing with rural crime. The NPCC recently published its rural affairs strategy, which, following a period of consultation with rural stakeholders, sets out operational and organisational policing priorities in respect of tackling crimes that particularly affect rural areas.

The strategy recognises that rural areas experience the range of crimes faced in our urban areas—the threat of modern slavery, for example—and also identifies specific rural threats, including poaching, fuel theft, theft of farm machinery and types of antisocial behaviour such as fly-tipping. We welcome that strategy.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Does the Minister accept that speeding on rural roads is an horrific problem? Is there anything in the strategy on that, because it really is devastating at the moment?

[Victoria Atkins]

That is precisely the sort of issue that we as constituency MPs can help with—by helping PCCs, police chiefs and councils to identify areas where speeding is a problem. My constituency has, I estimate, about 100 metres of dual carriageway; the rest is single carriageway across 531 square miles, so sadly we are particularly aware of the dangers of speeding on rural lanes. It is one of the challenges that the police face in the most rural areas. I encourage colleagues across the House to engage with their councils and PCCs on that issue if they feel there is a particular need in parts of their constituencies.

Home Office officials have met the national police lead and discussed with them the approach in the NPCC strategy. It is intended that the strategy will support safer rural communities and a better rural focus on policing. Yesterday, the Policing Minister met the National Farmers Union and colleagues on the all-party group on rural crime to discuss the crime affecting rural areas. We take crime in rural areas very seriously. We know that the methods used by criminals are constantly evolving and recognise the importance of staying one step ahead, which is why we are encouraging the police to innovate and transform how they investigate.

We have recently published the serious violence strategy, which targets the drivers behind the recent increases in serious violence. This might be thought a largely urban concern, but such a belief is misplaced. With county lines, we see urban gangs exploit children and young people and spread their evil business across the country, including into rural and coastal areas. It is important that rural communities understand and respond to this threat, which is precisely what we want to achieve through the new strategy.

I will conclude by returning to my constituency and perhaps inviting yet more people to visit my beautiful rural part of the country—

--- Later in debate ---

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the very thoughtful speech of the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson) and the other very thoughtful speeches in this debate. I very much welcome the fact that our Opposition Front-Bench team has chosen to hold this debate on rural crime and public services. Those of us who represent rural constituencies welcome the fact that many people view our communities in very glowing terms. We all know about the green and pleasant land, the apple tree in Linden Lea and so on, and our communities are all of those things—plus we also have a good few mountains in North Wales for good measure—but, like every other community, they have problems. They also have problems that are unique because of their rurality.

I was pleased to hear the emphasis in this debate on criminality pure and simple when it comes to animal abuse. These cases are truly horrific—whether it is hare coursing or badger baiting. Let us be absolutely clear on this: this is not some gentle historical relic of the past of some rural sport and the like; it is criminal behaviour pure and simple. The people who perpetuate these evil practices deserve to have the strong arm of the law used against them.

[Giles Watling]

Would the hon. Lady not include in that abandoning horses in fields to starve? That happens in my area. It is not only criminality, but sheer ignorance as well.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. Gentleman; it is animal abuse, it is cruelty and it needs to be stamped out. The punishment needs to fit the crime in those areas.

A couple of years ago I held an Adjournment debate in this House on rural crime, in which I highlighted the work of a local initiative—a rural crime mapping scheme—in the wards of Esclusham and Ponciau in my own constituency. The Minister then praised the local endeavour in our area, as well as the work of Farm Watch, the intriguingly named OWL—Online Watch Link—and of course the excellent work of the rural crime team of North Wales police, to which I also pay tribute today.

Many Members have spoken about the impact of police cuts. I must report on the situation in north Wales, using January Home Office figures. Five years ago, North Wales police employed 160 officers for neighbourhood policing and 254 police community support officers. Last year that figure fell to 90 police officers and just 148 police community support officers. That is a worry. Now, we know that there is technology and we welcome new technology—none of us is advocating the return to a sort of era of “Dixon of Dock Green”—but we do recognise that neighbourhood policing is vital if we are serious about tackling crime in our rural communities.

There are many aspects to rural crime, but today I will stick to just one: the issue of speeding on our rural roads, which I asked the Minister about earlier. Many of us are very concerned about the extent of speeding now. We need a major clampdown on speeding and, yes, a justice system that is prepared to be serious in its use of driving bans—something that is not happening to the right degree today.

[Ruth George]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the lack of funding for safety measures on our roads is contributing to the increase in speeding? In Derbyshire, for example, an area has to have seen seven personal injury accidents within three years before the authority will even look at considering safety improvements on the road. Does she agree that that is contributing to the problem?

[Susan Elan Jones]

I agree with every word my hon. Friend said.

Let me give a couple of examples. In north Wales, a biker was recently clocked doing 138 mph on the single-lane carriageway A5. For that he got fines, plus a grand total of a 90-day ban. Chillingly, a newspaper report spoke of photographs of the defendant riding towards a triangular sign warning of a pedestrian crossing 250 yards ahead of him. That is terrifying. In another example on the A5 in north Wales, a so-called supercar—I believe it cost around £70,000 and it could obviously go extremely fast—was clocked doing 122 mph. That is double the speed limit. The driver in that case got fines, which were clearly worth nothing to the tune of his £70,000 car, plus a grand total of a 56-day driving ban.

The Institute of Advanced Motorists has shown that there have been speeds of up to 140 mph on our roads in the last couple of years, so it is small wonder that it has called for an increase in visible policing as an active deterrent to speeding. It has also called for advanced driving and riding tuition, and the continuous development of skills. As a spokesperson from the organisation put it:

“Those guilty of this level of excessive speeding are clearly not being deterred by a short ban or fine. Their minds need to be concentrated to appreciate that they are putting other road users at significant danger by acting in this way.”

We need to be aware that car occupants and motorcyclists are twice as likely to die on a rural road as on an urban one. For cyclists, it is three times as much. The road safety charity Brake found, in a Brake and Digby Brown survey, that 33% of drivers admit to driving too fast on country roads, 19% admit breaking speed limits on country roads, 37% have had a near miss on country roads and 72% support lower speed limits.

I would like to end with a specific plea. More motorcyclists have died in north Wales so far this year—eight people—than in all of 2017. This is a sad feature not just of north Wales but of some other rural areas too. This week, North Wales police released details of an anonymous call where a man’s partner called them and begged them to arrest her speeding biker boyfriend over fears that he would die on the roads. North Wales police released the transcript of this anonymous call. The woman told them:

“My partner is a biker and is visiting north Wales this weekend and already boasting that he will be doing over a ton whenever he can. I know where they are starting from. Please, please try and find and stop them. We have children and I would rather him banned or in jail than dead. I am sorry to put this on you as I know you are already overworked.”

It is time we brought in proper speeding bans, time we funded more police to watch over our rural roads, and time we took the issue of speeding seriously. I really hope that this will become a much bigger issue in years to come and that the Government will act.

Harassment in Public Life

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Amber Rudd]

That is a very good point about something constructive that each of us can do. When we see one of our colleagues in the House receiving this sort of hate crime, we can go out of our way to call it out or, at the very least, not participate in any sort of endorsement, which sometimes does take place.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

There has been some talk here today about certain front page newspaper articles in the Daily Mail. Would the Home Secretary like to clarify whether she considers them to be totally unacceptable?

Wanless Review

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point about the extent to which children have been failed, both in the past and more recently, as we have seen from the cases he mentioned. I am very clear that anybody who has any evidence should come forward. I want people to feel confident that they can come forward in the knowledge that the intention of the inquiry we have set up is to get to the truth. If there were cover-ups among Government Departments or others in relation to these matters in the past, that should be exposed and we should ensure that that cannot happen in future.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

My question takes that one step further. Will the Home Secretary ensure that the overarching inquiry into child abuse, when up and running, will examine the role of Whitehall and its authorities, because that is a critical question for many people?

[Mrs May]

Yes, it absolutely will. As I have said, the inquiry will be comprehensive when it comes to the institutions it looks at. It will look at state and non-state institutions, because there have clearly been failures not only in state-run care homes, for example, but in other areas of life, such as the Church. The review will be comprehensive.

Child Abuse

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Thursday 17th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

My hon. Friend has made a very important point. I think that people will have been deeply concerned, indeed shocked, to learn that the list of arrests undertaken by the National Crime Agency and forces which was announced yesterday included a number of people who had been in positions of trust—such as teachers and doctors—and whom others would naturally have assumed they could trust with their children. This is a very important issue, which is why we have a system of vetting people who will be working with children. Of course, we must also ensure that all those who employ people to work in such positions of trust are aware of their responsibilities.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary may not be aware that yesterday I presented a petition to the House concerning the case of an online paedophile who had made and viewed more than a quarter of a million indecent images of children, a number of which were the more serious level 5 images. He was given a two-year suspended sentence and 300 hours of community service. When I wrote to the Attorney-General asking him to review the sentence, I was told that the Attorney-General does not have the power to review sentences of this nature. Why is that, and will the Home Secretary ensure that the Government change the law to give the Attorney-General that power?

[Mrs May]

The hon. Lady is right in the case that she has set out. However, she will have seen that the Attorney-General has heard her question and will, I am sure, be considering the point that she has made.

Home Affairs

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 10th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a great privilege to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) and the many other speakers. In many ways, the Queen’s Speech debate is the panorama of all debates, with so many different themes raised. Even within the framework of home affairs, a huge range of issues come into play, as they have today, such as human trafficking, immigration and much else. I totally understand why many hon. Members want to cover a range of themes in their speeches in such a debate, but I want to restrict my comments to one area that is very important for us as legislators—the crime of online paedophilia and how we handle it as a society. The crime is immensely serious, and we should reflect that in our laws and sentencing.

It is totally right, in the words of the summary of the Serious Crime Bill in the document issued with the Queen’s Speech, that

“we can continue to effectively and relentlessly pursue, disrupt and bring to justice serious and organised criminals, guard against the threat of terrorism and protect vulnerable women and children.”

If we cannot do that, there is precious little point in having a Government at all. I welcome the fact that the Bill will create a new offence of possessing paedophilic manuals and, critically, that it will clarify the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 to make it explicit that cruelty likely to cause psychological harm to a child is an offence. Several hon. Members have already expanded on that.

It is important to introduce measures to tackle child abuse and emotional neglect and, moving on from that, to recognise the growing dangers of online paedophilia. Legislation is necessary if we are to tackle how we deal with those who use the internet to target children. I want to propose that Ministers listening to the debate today should consider toughening still further the law in this area. We may need to use primary legislation to bring in mandatory custodial sentencing in certain cases for which at present there is no such requirement.

I want to share with the Minister and the House a recent case in my constituency in which, in my view and that of many of my constituents, what took place was an absolute travesty of justice. Members may not be aware of the case of Dennis Igo from Bronington in my constituency. So appalled was I about the outcome that I have referred the case to the Attorney-General and asked him to review the sentence awarded.

For seven years, Mr Igo viewed and made well over 250,000 indecent images of children. Some of the images were of children as young as five. Many were of children being abused, and some were category 5 images. One national newspaper has stated in print that he had 99 of the most serious level 5 images. The collection included 834 films. The police were able to retrieve 255,667 images, and they have been quite clear that there were many more images, but the sheer quantity made it impossible to retrieve any more from the computer. There were also extreme images of bestiality.

For this catalogue of the most heinous crimes, Mr Igo was sentenced on 23 May—in our country—to a grand total of 300 hours of community work, with some specialised counselling and a two-year prison term suspended for two years. He was ordered to register with the police as a sex offender for 10 years, and he was given a 10-year sexual offences prevention order to restrict his future conduct. Before sentencing, he was not put on remand, but was out on bail. The view was taken that he could be managed in the community; the community he lives in does not share that view, and neither, most certainly, do I.

The mitigating circumstances were that the accused was depressed, his wife had been ill and he allegedly had financial problems, although I do not know whether the latter point was independently verified or whether there is evidence of his having sold any assets to deal with that if it was the case. Nevertheless, I do not believe that depression, a wife who has been ill, alleged money problems and, I suspect, a very clever lawyer, add up to mitigating circumstances for a non-custodial sentence in such a case. That is why I have asked the Attorney-General to review it.

It is no wonder that Claudia Knights, the chief executive of the child protection charity Kidscape, said of this case:

“The sentence does not reflect the severity of the case. It must not be forgotten that each indecent image involves real children. We have to ask what message such apparently lenient sentences send out to both abusers and victims of such crimes.”

By comparison, let us take another case, the sentencing for which took place in Peterborough Crown court two days before Mr Igo was sentenced in Mold Crown court for the offences that I have listed. In the Peterborough case, the court heard how the accused made indecent images of children available for distribution via a file-sharing software programme. Officers discovered 242 indecent images and 495 films. In the case that I have been describing, Mr Igo was sentenced on 16 separate charges; in the Peterborough Crown court case, the accused was sentenced on 10 counts. Igo and the accused in the Peterborough case were put on the sex offenders register for an identical length of time: 10 years. However, in the Peterborough Crown court case, the accused was also jailed for 16 months. After sentencing in the Peterborough Crown court case, a detective constable said:

“I hope this sends out a clear message that anyone who thinks they can access and share such images will not get away with it… We will find out and we will catch up with you.”

I recognise that there are differences in the two cases, but there is also clearly a massive discrepancy when 242 indecent images and 495 films mean jail for one person, yet, in the same jurisdiction, more than 255,667 indecent images and 834 films do not mean jail for another. That is why I hope that, following this debate, Home Office Ministers will look at the need for new primary legislation. Do they honestly believe that online paedophiles, especially those who have made and viewed such a huge number of indecent images, should seriously be out on bail before sentencing?

I believe that it is crucial that we look seriously at mandatory custodial sentences. Recently, we have heard many accounts of child abuse in the 1970s and 1980s and about how a previous generation of abused children went through hell. Sometimes, they spoke out and no one believed them; many times, they did not even feel that they could tell anyone. Whether it is true or not, we like to think that things like that belong to a past era and that they could not happen in quite the same way today. However, as we have that debate and as we debate the Queen’s Speech, let us not forget the world of online child abuse, where images are taken, used and abused; images of real children, wherever they may happen to live; images that are viewed and manufactured electronically.

The issues involved are serious for Governments and for us as legislators. As we speak, as we have done today, about paedophilic manuals and the emotional and psychological abuse of children, I hope that Ministers will seriously review and consider the need for new primary legislation in this area.

Oral Answers to Questions

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Monday 28th April 2014 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

There is no limit on the number of students who can legitimately come to this country to study. When the hon. Gentleman looks at the statistics and the information, he will see that the number of visa applications coming to universities has gone up by 7%. We continue to underline that this country welcomes students to our world-class universities in Scotland and in the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

13. What assessment she has made of trends in the level of charges brought for violent crime.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

15. What assessment she has made of trends in the level of charges brought for violent crime.

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Damian Green)]

The number of charges brought for violent crime has fallen. This is broadly in line with falls in police-recorded violent crime under this Government, but in fact the percentage of violent offences that result in a charge has increased under this Government. In addition, the independent crime survey for England and Wales for 2012-13 shows the number of violent crimes at its lowest level since 1981.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Does the Minister share my concern about some of the offences for which community resolutions are now used? I think of crimes such as domestic violence and knife crime. Does he not think that community resolutions should be banned for such offences, although they might be the best remedy for others?

[Damian Green]

I share the hon. Lady’s concerns about any inappropriate sentencing, so I am sure she will welcome the steps the Government have taken, such as stopping the use of cautions for serious offences, including those involving the possession of a knife, offensive weapon or firearm in a public place. Community resolutions and cautions have a part to play, but we have taken steps to ensure they are not used for the most serious crimes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Monday 27th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

I do not recognise my hon. Friend’s description, nor would I describe the legislation he refers to as “knee-jerk”. It has been subject to proper consultation and due consideration by this House in Committee and elsewhere. It is important that we deal with dangerous dogs. It is also important to ensure that dog owners behave responsibly towards those who may be affected adversely by their activities.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

T5. The police and crime commissioner for north Wales is a member of one of the coalition Government parties, but that did not stop him last week expressing great concern at the scale of central grants from the Home Office for policing. He was especially concerned about the rising cost of fuel and petrol. Will the Home Secretary tell the House what discussions she has had with police and crime commissioners who represent rural areas on this important matter?

[Damian Green]

I assure the hon. Lady that both I and the Home Secretary have many meetings with police and crime commissioners, both from urban and rural areas; indeed, I met all the Welsh PCCs in one group in recent months. If the hon. Lady and her police and crime commissioner are worried about fuel duties, I remind her that it is this Government who have frozen fuel duties and ended the fuel duty escalator that the Government she supported kept throughout their time in office.