English Votes for English Laws and North Wales

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 1st July 2015 Westminster Hall

[Albert Owen]

Obviously, that happened. If it had been done at the same time as the London Mayor, and perhaps at the same time as another region, perhaps others would have clamoured for it later. I accept that that was an error. However, the right hon. Gentleman’s party, which opposed devolution at that time, has now wholly embraced it, so the Labour party has done his party a favour, moving it forward in many ways. The right hon. Gentleman, a pragmatic Secretary of State who wanted more devolution for Wales and for the rest of the UK, is evidence of that. I welcome the fact that many Conservative Members of Parliament have taken this journey, but I want the direction of the journey to be clear in future.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

This is an important subject. Does my hon. Friend agree that there are many types of devolution? He talks about English devolution. Once upon a time, I served as a borough councillor in London and I think the emphasis there would be on London-wide devolution, with virtually no interest in English devolution. Does he also agree with his predecessor, the late, great Cledwyn Hughes, who spoke of an authority for North Wales? I am not necessarily advocating that as a model, but there are different types of devolution and all have to be considered in the round.

[Albert Owen]

I am grateful for that intervention. I will develop my argument a little further, but my point is that devolution needs to be close to the people. In the original Welsh devolution settlement, the Assembly had regional bodies where we discussed many issues. I do not want devolution to be just a movement of powers from Westminster to Cardiff Bay: within Wales, I want it to go to Colwyn bay and Cardigan bay, and to Cemaes bay in my constituency. That is real devolution and that is what I am advocating. Devolution should not just be for one part of the UK. We need even distribution of devolution across the UK.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsty Blackman]

The point is that the core process is there. We need a process of legal challenge. We need to allow people to challenge decisions that are taken here. Making the change through the Standing Orders removes that right.

The key point is this: it would be ridiculous and undemocratic for Scottish or Welsh MPs to be excluded from any decision that could have a detrimental impact on the budgets of the devolved Administrations. Forty-five per cent of the Scottish people voted for independence and 55% voted to stay in the Union. Not one of them voted to cede to others the ability to legislate. It would be utterly bizarre for such a significant constitutional change to be made by a change to the Standing Orders.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Kirsty Blackman]

I will not, as I have only a short time remaining.

It would also be improper and unprecedented for any changes to the Standing Orders to be made without proper scrutiny. Such significant constitutional changes require significant scrutiny and debate, not a hurried announcement less than three weeks before the summer recess and with much scrabbling around to formulate a coherent policy. I urge the Minister, as I have in many written questions already, to allow extensive scrutiny of the matter. We do not need a change in the rules to determine what we can and cannot vote for. Scottish MPs already exclude ourselves from purely England-only votes. It is pretty ironic that, on a day after English MPs vote down the will of the Scottish people on the Scotland Bill, a discussion is being held on how best to exclude Scottish MPs from English legislation. We simply cannot have this rushed through without proper consideration of the consequences.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship Mr Crausby. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) on securing this short but important debate. I have visited North Wales and his constituency and I canvassed there during the by-election for the Welsh Assembly—I must concede to the hon. Gentleman that it was not for his party. I was delighted with the result we saw for Plaid Cymru that evening.

We have never had a measure quite like English votes for English laws. We have heard a little about the historical context and precedents, but we have to go back to the days of Gladstone before we find anything like it being attempted in this House. In those days, there were Members of Parliament from a nation that decided that it wanted its own constitutional future, just as there are now. We can see what happened when the Government tried to impose such a law in the House then, and history’s judgment. The Government of that day realised very quickly that the plans were unworkable and withdrew them.

One might think that something of such constitutional significance and historical importance would be subject to the utmost parliamentary scrutiny—wide-ranging consultative pre-legislative scrutiny and a full debate.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Pete Wishart]

I am sorry, but I cannot give way, because I have to leave time for the Front Benchers.

Instead, the proposal has been rushed through at breakneck speed. We learned yesterday from the press that the Leader of the House of Commons intends to bring forward his proposals before recess—before anybody has had an opportunity to try to understand and assess what is going on.

My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman) and several other Members have consistently and continually asked the Leader of the House to start to explain a little about the process and how this matter will be determined. All we hear in return is that he will bring his proposals to the House soon. I think we know that, because he has said it on several occasions, but why can he not answer basic questions about what is proposed? Is what the Government are trying to do with EVEL a state secret?

We need a debate. We have to understand what is going on, because it will impact on my rights to represent my constituents effectively in the House. It will have an impact on the ability of everyone who has contributed to the debate to represent properly the people who elected us to do our jobs here.