Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill (Third sitting)

Stuart C McDonald Excerpts

Thursday 14th February 2019 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Sorry to cut you off, but I want to get everyone in.

[Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP)]

Q My question has been answered, but I want to follow up on the point about simplicity. The White Paper envisages trade arrangements being tied up with different possible visa regimes for different countries, not only an arrangement with the EU. Ultimately, we have heard lots of evidence that the system for non-EEA nationals is horrendously complicated. The idea that you make things simpler by applying the horrendously complicated system to everyone seems a bit superficial, does it not? Ms McCluskey, you said that this was increasing simplicity, but it is absurd to say that you will simplify a horrendously complicated system by applying it to everybody.

Jurga McCluskey: I see your point. I completely accept everything that has been said before, in terms of the 5,000 changes in the last 10 years.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q To give an example, if you have a fish processing business and you currently recruit from the EU, you just recruit. That is it. You do not have to go through any visa regime. Under the new system, you will have to be a tier 2 sponsor. Every single time you get somebody to come in, you will either have to get a certificate of sponsorship or you will need to go through this ludicrous one-year visa. That is not simplicity for that fish-processing businessperson, is it?

Jurga McCluskey: Absolutely; there is no denying that. However, at the same time, what is the alternative? Freedom of movement would have facilitated all the points you raise—

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q My alternative would be a trade arrangement that allows for the free movement of people to carry on. Mr Berry, on the family point, in 10 years’ time, if I am a UK citizen married to an EU spouse and want them to come to this country, what rules will apply to them that do not apply now?

Adrian Berry: At the moment, in the absence of a mobility component of a future relationship treaty between the UK and the EU, the immigration rules will apply if you want to bring a spouse who is an EU citizen. However, be careful what you wish for, because that is the inbound system. On the export system, Brits going to the EU27—where economic migration is not harmonised—will face 27 different Acts of reciprocity to however strong we are on inbound migration. There will be no intra-EU migration for British citizens. How Brits will be impaired going the other way is completely missing from the White Paper or any Government document.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q Ms Pinter, do you have any comments on the family rules that might apply to EU family members in the future?

Ilona Pinter: There are obviously concerns about families being separated by income thresholds. The Children’s Society works within the UK, and our concerns are about those who are already here, as well as about families in the future. As I said, I think access to benefits and vital services is absolutely essential for families and particularly for children who currently miss out on vital things like free school meals and the pupil premium—things that are aimed at families on a low income and in material deprivation to help them to overcome and to have the best life chances in the future.

I want to add one more thing about the White Paper. It would be really beneficial to have proper public consultation on the White Paper; we have an opportunity to really look at this in detail. A lot of the focus in the White Paper is on the economic aspects, which are obviously very important, but a lot of cultural and social integration issues need to be thought through properly, as does, I would argue, how these complicated rules and systems are going to impact on children’s rights. The Children’s Minister committed in November to doing a children’s rights impact assessment on all new policy and legislation coming in. This is a great opportunity to do that. We have 12 months: we would really welcome the opportunity to work with Government and look at this in the round to make sure that proper account is taken of the wide-scale impact that it will have.

[The Chair]

I am sorry, but we have just eight minutes left with this panel. Kate Green.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Duguid]

Q Okay, thank you.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q The White Paper does not propose applying the same rules to everybody, does it?

Hilary Brown: No, it does not, but that does not mean to say that we should not make some progress towards attempting to simplify it so that it does apply equally to all.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q Our trade relationships would be one reason why you might not apply the same rules to everybody, and that is pretty much why we have free movement now.

Hilary Brown: Yes, trade relationships may be a reason to justify some kind of other consideration, but they should not be a back-door route into the United Kingdom, for people who can hide behind trade,

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q When you said we should be pushing for fairness for everybody, is that not closer to the mark? It does not mean that everybody comes under the same rules.

Hilary Brown: Whatever rules are implemented, they should be fair. As I say, there could be other trade agreements, but they should be open to anxious scrutiny and I do not think they should be seen and used as a back-door route into the United Kingdom for people who can afford that.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q I absolutely agree with you on that point. It should not just be about suddenly allowing the wealthy from country A, B or C to come in. Can you tell me about the tier 2 system? What are your thoughts on how simple that is?

Hilary Brown: At this time none of the immigration rules is simple. The tier 2 system can be a route into the United Kingdom, again, for people who are able to afford it and those with large reserves of money. I think the system itself needs to be completely overhauled. There needs to be a situation where the UK can look at innovation and other trades and routes. For instance, on the shortage occupation list, there are multimillion pound industries in the United Kingdom that would not be identified unless there was some innovation around whether they should be included in various tier 2 legislation.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q Mr Hoare, will you comment on how simple or otherwise the tier 2 system is now? Secondly, do you have any thoughts on how we can make the settled status scheme better for EU nationals who are currently here, whether that is making it a declaratory system, or appeal rights, or whatever else?

Martin Hoare: First, with the tier 2 system, the process for employers of obtaining a sponsor licence is difficult. It does not receive intense scrutiny by the Home Office. There is no right of challenge to the Home Office decision, and therefore many employers who wish to run a tier 2 scheme to sponsor migrants, although they are bona fide employers, get cases refused and are not able to challenge. The starting point of the scheme is unworkable. The insistence on pedantic documentary requirements, which many employers cannot understand, leads to a lot of cases being refused, so the system is not workable at present.

With regard to your second point, yes, I think there should be simply a declaratory system for EU settled status. If the British Government wish to require EU citizens to justify and document every day of their existence in the United Kingdom when at the time they did not know they would have to do it, it will lead to a load of perverse and unfair outcomes.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q Ms Brown, any thoughts on improvements to the settled status scheme? We have heard people suggest making it declaratory, or appeal rights.

Hilary Brown: I would certainly suggest not making it so onerous as to documents.

[Afzal Khan]

Q Will you tell us the cost to applicants of applications and the fees for appeals, and the effect of removing legal aid?

Hilary Brown: Aside from the cost of the appeal to the tribunal, which is over £100, the cost of appealing is not a cost that can just be measured in the cost of the application to the tribunal. There is often the cost of getting representation and having to obtain evidence to go before the various tribunals. There is the cost of certifying and obtaining documents. The withdrawal of legal aid often means that for people to be able to get before a tribunal with a robust bundle of evidence giving some sort of chance of demonstrating that the appeal should be granted in the appellant’s favour, they must be able to find something in the region of £1,000 or £2,000—maybe £3,000. That is just to get together a bundle of evidence to go before a tribunal with a remote chance of succeeding. All too often people just cannot afford that. The fact that we have to put bundles together in a way that proves the documents and evidence they rely on will stand up to independent and anxious scrutiny, and the denial of legal aid, prevents people from getting access to justice.