Justice and Security Bill [Lords]

Debate between Steve Baker and Hazel Blears

Thursday 7th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Steve Baker]

As I am sure my right hon. and learned Friend knows, I am often in close contact with the Whips, but not usually on that matter.

The third reason why the ISC needs to be reformed is that it has seemed unwilling to demonstrate that it challenges the information it receives from the intelligence and security agencies. The Joint Committee on Human Rights found the ISC’s 2007 report on rendition to be “opaque” and too readily accepting of the accounts presented by the agency heads, without sufficient justification.

The crucial reform that is necessary is direct election of the Chair by the House of Commons. The Wright Committee—the Committee on Reform of the House of Commons—thought extremely carefully about this issue. Paragraph 74 of its report states:

“The credibility of select committees could be enhanced by a greater and more visible element of democracy in the election of members and Chairs.”

It also states:

“Their election by a small group of Members, acting under party constraints, is evidently not conducive to producing a truly independent figure with the required weight inside and outside the House which House-wide election might confer.”

That is precisely my point.

Those of us who were elected in 2010 have experienced first hand only the operation of Select Committees under Chairs directly elected by the House, so I personally struggle to draw a comparison. However, in responding to the Liaison Committee’s second report of Session 2012-13 on Select Committee effectiveness, resources and powers, the Government acknowledged:

“Chairs of select committees are now elected by the whole House, giving them increased authority and independence.”

Who am I to disagree with the Government on this point?

That is precisely the reason for these amendments. It may suit the Government to be scrutinised by carefully selected nominees who elect a Chair from among themselves, as the Bill proposes, but the risks to the credibility of the Committee are obvious.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is seeking to make the perfectly logical and rational argument that the Chair and membership of the ISC are analogous with the Chair and membership of other Committees. Does he not accept, however, that as the ISC deals with intelligence matters and our secret intelligence services, other factors must be taken into account, because the trust relationship—not collusion or a cosy relationship, but a trust relationship—between the agencies and the members of the Committee is crucial to effective scrutiny? If the agencies do not have that confidence and trust, they will be less forthcoming.

[Steve Baker]

The right hon. Lady’s question pre-empts some of my other remarks, but let me just draw her attention to what amendment 9 states:

“The Chair is to be a member of the House of Commons elected in the same way as the Chairs”

of other Committees, and:

“A person is not eligible to be elected as Chair of the ISC unless that person—

(a) has received the formal consent in writing of the Prime Minister to that person’s candidature, and

(b) is not a Minister of the Crown.”

So the Prime Minister, and the security establishment, would have the opportunity through that procedure to approve or reject a person who wished to stand for election as Chair of the Committee. That is not a perfect situation, but it is one that recognises the point the right hon. Lady makes.

Public Services (Social Enterprise and Social Value) Bill

Debate between Steve Baker and Hazel Blears

Friday 19th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) on two counts: on being successful in the ballot at his first attempt, and on deciding to pursue such a course. At first sight, the measure appears relatively modest, but I genuinely believe that it is a small Bill with a big intent. He introduced the Bill with characteristic quiet determination. As it goes through its various stages, some of that quiet determination will doubtless be needed.

I broadly welcome the Bill. The hon. Gentleman generously acknowledged that the idea of extending social enterprise and involving communities in helping to run, manage and govern services is not new. It dates back many years, and a range of community groups throughout the country have pursued such work in their communities for decades, making a difference and ensuring that voluntary organisations are well supported. The Bill tries to formalise that position and use the power of public procurement to ensure that community groups, which are often fragile and lack sustainable resources, can have a sustainable future. That is at the heart of the Bill.

If the hon. Gentleman succeeds in ensuring that we use the power of public procurement at national Government and local government level to give people some stability so that voluntary organisations and social enterprises can plan for the medium and long term, he will do a great service to many of our groups, which unfortunately currently spend the majority of their time going round with a begging bowl and living a hand-to-mouth existence looking for temporary grant funding instead of getting on with the job they are there to do—serving the community. If he can provide that sustainability, it will be a welcome step forward.

The hon. Gentleman recognises that the agenda is not new—Governments of all shades have tried to pursue such issues. I had a White Paper in 2008, “Communities in control”, which tried to take much of the agenda forward and suggested a national social enterprise strategy. I appreciate that strategies are not terribly popular, but something that applies across Government and affects every Department needs joined-up policy making. I ask some Conservative Members not to be quite so sceptical of planning and ensuring an integrated approach to the agenda, because that is the key to success.

The third aspect of the Bill is the most important—not the strategies, which are a means of delivering, but the commissioning for social value. It is radical, and I urge the hon. Gentleman not to limit that to the social enterprise sector. It is key that commissioning for social value applies to the public sector and the private sector when it provides public services, as well as the third sector. There is always a danger in this area of policy making that commissioning for social value becomes a nice thing to do for voluntary organisations, charities and the third sector, but we are considering mainstream procurement and commissioning and changing the value set of commissioning to ensure that from the public money that we spend we gain the maximum impact in social value. That is quite a new field.

How do we measure social value? What do we mean by it? A great deal of academic research is being done on it and there is no settled view. The hon. Gentleman gave one example: creating local supply chains. Evidence already exists to show that if we use our public money to support local businesses in a neighbourhood, we get a much larger multiplier effect—approximately £7 for every pound of public money spent—to sustain that local economy, support jobs and enable poorer communities in particular to thrive and develop. That work is still at a fairly formative stage and I hope that, in Committee, we can debate what is—and, indeed, what is not—social value.

[Steve Baker]

Listening to the right hon. Lady’s remarks, I am reminded of a book on social value that was written in the 1920s. Much as I would associate myself with almost everything that my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) said, it seems that socialists have spent nearly 100 years trying, but failing, to define social value loosely. Socialists are no more likely to succeed today than they were in the 1920s. I ask the right hon. Lady to state in concrete terms how she would measure social value.

[Hazel Blears]

I have already said that there are many different views and that it is a developing subject. If the hon. Gentleman claims that the concept of social value is a socialist idea, perhaps he is inviting the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington to cross the Floor.

[Steve Baker]

Of course, we all value society. The right hon. Lady may know of the Cobden society. We gleefully reproduce Cobden’s words:

“Peace will come to earth when the people have more to do with one another and the government less.”

That is precisely the point: when the people have more to do with one another and the Government less. I fear that we are here today to discuss how the Government can have more to do with creating a strategy for that most delicate system of relationships—human social co-operation. Of course, we all value relationships and society, but we differ—it is a fine point, but probably the one about which we have argued most sincerely for more than 100 years—about the extent to which state power should be used to intervene in the dynamic process that is social co-operation. It seems to me that we have moved on—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. May I gently say to the hon. Gentleman that interventions, even when they constitute a kind of philosophical musing, must be brief?

[Hazel Blears]

I am grateful, Mr Speaker. I fundamentally disagree with the hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker). If his idea of building a strong and vibrant society is leaving people on their own to get on with it and sink or swim, I entirely reject that. I genuinely believe that the best society is a partnership between active and enabling government—nationally and locally—and the ideas, innovation and passion that local people bring. When a commitment to support people from government and the passion and entrepreneurial spirit of local people are brought together, something really special is created. If they are divided, and we say, “Government must do this in a monolithic way” while local people are left on their own, unsupported and unsustained, we do not get the synergy that makes a difference to our communities. I therefore fundamentally reject the hon. Gentleman’s comments.

[Steve Baker]

I shall be very brief. The right hon. Lady paints a dreary picture of society as being entirely dependent on the state. I agree with much that she has said, but not with the key point that the state must act.

[Hazel Blears]

I am rarely accused of being dreary. I am usually accused of the opposite. If the hon. Gentleman will listen to my further remarks, perhaps he will revise his view.