Polish Anti-defamation Law

Debate between Stephen Pound and Khalid Mahmood

Tuesday 5th June 2018 Westminster Hall

[Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure as always to serve under your stewardship, Mr Gapes, particularly given your great knowledge of foreign affairs and your former chairmanship of the Foreign Affairs Committee. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel) for securing this debate, which has been an emotional and personal one. I think he wanted to have it elsewhere, but because he was not able to do that, he brought it here. He secured the debate because of his personal history and his family’s history. It has particularly focused on the law that has been introduced. That is a serious issue, and we have to think about how it will proceed. A number of Members have raised different views of the law.

In April 2016, the Polish Government approved a new Bill allowing for terms of up to three years’ imprisonment for anyone using phrases such as “Polish death camps” when referring to Auschwitz and other camps operated by Nazi Germany in occupied Poland during world war two. That in itself is correct. Those were Nazi war camps. They were extermination camps. They were the most hideous form of genocide in the second world war. It is right to condemn that and it is not right to implicate Poland in that—that point I understand. The law goes further, however, and allows the state to give people a three-year sentence for talking about Polish camps and debating Poland’s role. That is the sticking point. How will that law be interpreted and used by different people to stifle debate?

That debate has great significance and it needs to happen, particularly given where we are at the moment. The debate is being used by the far right in Poland. In 2017, more than 60,000 nationalists took part in a march in Warsaw to mark Poland’s independence day. Slogans included, “White Europe of brotherly nations”, “Pure Poland, white Poland” and “Refugees out”. That is what we are concerned about. It is not in any way about the form of the Polish nation or the people of Poland, who worked terrifically well during the second world war and after. The Polish community served valiantly in Birmingham in support of the Spitfire pilots and as mechanics. We commend the heroic acts of the Polish people, as the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) said. He spoke about his great-uncle, Jan Kawczynski, who made a huge sacrifice and ultimately paid the ultimate price.

[Stephen Pound]

I apologise for intervening—I realise time is short—but my hon. Friend raised an important point. He referred to slogans used by some far-right groups. Surely he would recognise that the shambling, stumbling, mono-browed knuckle-draggers of the far right of this country do not speak for our nation. They exhibit these foul, ghastly slogans, but we do not judge this country by those people. Let us please not judge Poland by a few of these unpleasant lunatics.

[Mr Mahmood]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. To clarify, I was not saying that such people represent Poland as a nation. I went further to clarify the role of the Polish people against the Nazis and the actions they took. In that sense, I fully agree with him. The rally was also attended by Tommy Robinson, the former leader of the English Defence League, who is in prison at the moment. Roberto Fiore from Italy also attended. Those people tend to gather at these things. The real issue is how we deal with that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) made the key point that there were 3.3 million Jewish people living in Poland who had property and assets. Most of the descendants of those Polish Jews now live in the United Kingdom. Clarification is still needed about the property that was originally taken by the Nazis and then nationalised by the Communist Government that followed. That issue has to be addressed if we are to address all the issues post-Nazi occupation. The law that the Polish Government have passed does not recognise the heritage of those people who live in the United Kingdom in relation to their families’ assets and properties. In that respect, a resolution calling for restitution has been passed by 46 other nations and endorsed by the US and the European Parliament. That is important, because that resolution confirms the history of the Jewish people in Poland.

Kashmir

Debate between Stephen Pound and Khalid Mahmood

Thursday 11th September 2014 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) bemoaned the preponderance of white, middle-aged males. Thus, I rise with some trepidation and I can only offer an apology—there are some things that I am capable of changing and there are some things that are beyond that.

When I was being lobbied this morning by my appropriately named constituent, Amarjit Jammu, she asked me whether I would be her voice in this afternoon’s debate. I am happy to be that and the voice of many other people. If there is one thing that we have established early on in this debate, it is that it is a debate of entire legitimacy. To say that this issue is something of which we should not speak is wrong; however, to say that it is something that we could inflame is a matter that we must consider. Whether we have a constituency interest in this matter, have a birth line connected to the region or are simple humanitarians—citizens of this planet—we have a duty, an obligation and a right to debate, discuss and speak about these issues.

I commend the quality of the speakers today. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) spoke extremely movingly from his personal constituency experience. However, the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) was quite simply one of the finest speeches I have heard in Westminster Hall, if not in this House; not only does she speak from a Mirpuri background, as well as with knowledge and understanding, but she speaks with a cool humanity and decency, while looking to the future positively. I found that immensely impressive.

My hon. Friend also mentioned in passing—a few other speakers have mentioned it—the sheer heart-stopping, dazzling beauty of Kashmir. What an utter tragedy it is that this place, this heaven on Earth, is at the moment scarred by this bloody conflict. My hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) and I have visited Kashmir on two or three occasions. We have been on Dal lake and seen the cedar houseboats bobbing silently and unused by the sides of the lake, which should be one of the great tourist attractions of the world. We have also seen Gulmarg, and even the 100 Pipers whisky distillery nestling in the highlands, as well as St Andrew’s church. Overwhelmingly, what we have seen in Kashmir is a place that is the reflection of God in its beauty, but also where there is horror, sadness and tragedy. In addition to the places I have mentioned, there is the plateau, Kargil and the line of control. There is a frozen conflict, taking place in temperatures many degrees below zero, in one of the most inhospitable places on Earth.

Can we nail, once and for all, the suggestion that the Indian army would be in this place—where soldiers can only serve for 12 hours at a time before they have to be evacuated, before being moved back in again—if it were not for the fact that if they were not there the cross-border problem would be so serious, damaging and cataclysmic? Their presence is absolutely essential. Soldiers do not fight, or stand guard on watchtowers, in sub-zero temperatures and in such an inhospitable environment unless it is utterly essential. That is why the Indian army is there.

We have an answer; we have the Simla agreement of 1972. One of the most important things that we can do today is to recognise the good that is being done in Kashmir. There is some movement towards rapprochement and we should hail that movement.

Some years ago—I think it was in 2002 or 2003—my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North visited Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed. I well remember that the economic issues in Kashmir then were the preponderant ones. His daughter, Mehbooba Mufti, was working on a hydro-electric project then to provide free energy to some villages from Kashmir’s ample—indeed, massive—and wonderful supply of fast-flowing waters. It was that type of issue that mattered. One thing that must arise from this debate is not only a recognition of this most tragic of long-standing conflicts but the need to consider—not only from our perspective in this country but, I hope, from the perspective of the EU—offering assistance in nation-building, including providing economic support, assistance and advice.

Let us look at the positives. The devastating and horrendous floods in the region have been mentioned many times, as has the reaction of the Indian Government. On his recent visit to Jammu and Kashmir, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has shown the hand of friendship in a most conciliatory way. His letter of 7 September to Nawaz Sharif, offering all possible assistance in the region, is one of the most important developments in Indian-Pakistan relations. The fact that Prime Minister Modi invited Prime Minister Sharif to his inauguration has already been mentioned. That is the hand of friendship being offered. It is a move towards two great nations coming together, and not—as in the past—in a confrontational way.

Let us never forget the wise words of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood), when he spoke earlier. Quite rightly, he reminded the House that this is not simply a territorial or localised dispute; this is a dispute that has led us twice—twice—to the edge of nuclear war. It is that important; in fact, we would be derelict in our duty in this House if we did not discuss this matter.

We must give credit where it is due. I make no bones about it: I have visited Narendra Modi. I am sorry to keep mentioning my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North—Members must have the impression that he and I have spent most of our time travelling the world together, which is not true at all—but we visited Narendra Modi. When I think of Narendra Modi’s reputation in the early days, compared with the conciliatory peacemaker that we now see today, it is quite extraordinary. That approach of friendship and bilateral resolution to the problem—assisted, advised, supported and endorsed by other democratic institutions—represents the best way forward.

[Mr Khalid Mahmood]

Will my hon. Friend confirm, unlike the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), that wherever there are human rights abuses—India, Pakistan, China, wherever—they should be investigated, and investigated properly?

[Stephen Pound]

I am happy to respond to my hon. Friend by saying: precisely so. Of course that should be the case. Equally, however, we must look at the solution. I make no apologies for returning to the contribution by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood. I sincerely hope that her words are studied in Islamabad and Delhi, because they were the wisest and most sensible words we have heard today. We have not yet heard from the Minister—he may exceed them—but we should take those words with us from this meeting, because they are the words of someone who knows more about this subject than almost anyone else here in Westminster Hall, and who sees a future and a positive way forward.

This has been an extraordinarily well informed, well attended and well supported debate; it is a tribute to those constituents and friends who have contacted us about this issue that there has been such a good turnout today. I freely give credit to the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) for quite rightly feeling the temperature of the House and calling this debate today and to the Backbench Business Committee for endorsing it.

Let this debate not be remembered as one of recrimination, point-scoring and finger-pointing. Let it mark the point at which we start to look forward to a brighter tomorrow, and move towards a coming-together of two democratic nations that we in this country have very close ties and links with, and that I hope we will always support. Then, may the people of Jammu and Kashmir—that beautiful but benighted part of the world—enjoy the peace and civilised society that they more than deserve and that is too long overdue.