Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Debate between Stephen McPartland and Tom Harris

Wednesday 9th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harris]

The hon. Gentleman raises a point that I and my colleagues on the Labour Front Bench have also raised. If nothing has changed, why must we have these provisions in the Bill? Has he been told by Ministers why these provisions are in front of us, if everything is going so swimmingly?

[Stephen McPartland]

The hon. Gentleman might be surprised to know that my communication with Front Benchers is not as great as it should be. I voted against the badger cull, to which he referred earlier, so I would imagine that the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals will not be running a campaign in my constituency.

I always vote on the Bill and the amendments placed in front of me, not on what happened 13 or 14 years ago, and I am happy with Government amendment 32. It demonstrates that Ministers listened in Committee and on Second Reading when we talked about charities’ concerns and their wish to understand better how the Bill would affect them.

I have listened carefully to the examples given, and I understand that there is nervousness, but I hate the word “gagging”, with which people have tried to scare the third sector almost into stopping their campaigning. [Hon. Members: “It’s the Government who are scaring them.”] I do not think the third sector is scared. I am proud of the more than 400 charities and local community groups in Stevenage, none of which have approached me independently to talk about their concerns.

Hon. Members have mentioned the concerns about the campaigns that large charities might wish to run, but I do not think that that will be an issue. One of the big points people are missing is that charities are not allowed to engage in political activity that could affect the outcome of an election at the moment.

A lot of the activity that has been referred to today would already be captured by the controlled expenditure regulations in PPERA. Additionally, those engaging in such activity could be referred to the Charity Commission and investigated to determine whether they should retain their charitable status. We need to explain that to the third sector, because this talk of gagging is causing great fear among the wider charitable sector. As I have said, none of the smaller local charities in my constituency has had a problem with the proposals, but some of the larger national ones are concerned. I understand that the National Council for Voluntary Organisations, which represents 10,500 charities, has a range of concerns.

I said in my speech on Second Reading that I would never be involved in a Bill that would lead to any loss of freedom of speech. A constituent spoke to me the other week about the Bill. He jokingly made a good point that an organisation that tried to gag the press might then complain of being gagged itself if the provisions were deemed to affect it as well. It seems to depend on one’s point of view. The amendment demonstrates that the Government have come our way, and I am pleased that they have listened.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen McPartland]

Most charities campaign for improvement. I am the chairman of a large number of all-party parliamentary groups, and we meet various charities that campaign for improvements in respiratory health, for example. As the law stands, those charities can do that. The amendments demonstrate that that will continue to be the case. A problem would arise, however, if a charity were to say, “If you vote for this candidate, that would be best for our charitable purposes.”

[Mr Harris]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can answer a question that the Minister failed to answer. He has just talked about charities endorsing particular candidates. Which charities? Which candidates? Can he give me one example of that?

[Stephen McPartland]

I am afraid that I cannot give the hon. Gentleman such an example. I would love to do so, but that is not the point that I am trying to make. People have suggested that, if a candidate refused to sign up to a pledge with a certain charity, that charity could e-mail its members to tell them which candidates had signed up and which had not. Under the current law, any such candidate who felt that such activity would have an impact on the outcome of the election could complain to the Charity Commission, on the grounds that the charity had been seeking to secure the political benefit of one candidate over another. The current law would then determine whether such activity would fall under the rules on controlled expenditure. A lot of the examples that we have heard today would fall under those rules.

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Debate between Stephen McPartland and Tom Harris

Tuesday 3rd September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Stephen McPartland]

My hon. Friend makes another wonderful point. As I have said, that was the first example I had heard of a lobbyist having any influence. I am sure that his clients were delighted, as they had probably spent a lot more than the £12 million they spent on getting the planning permission on employing previous lobbyists who had no impact whatever.

Government procurement is an incredibly bureaucratic process that can go on for ever. We all have small businesses in our constituencies that struggle to engage with those bureaucratic procedures that never really get anywhere. I question how much influence those procedures have, but the Bill represents a step in the right direction.

I want to move on to part 2 of the Bill, the part that has elicited the most consternation today. I understand that charities will still be able to support specific policies advocated by political parties if that will help them to achieve their charitable purposes, and that the law currently prohibits them from engaging in party politics or party political campaigning, from supporting political candidates or from undertaking political activity that is unrelated to the charity’s purpose. The Bill seems to be dealing with trust. The Government trust the charities to engage in the policies that they want to engage in, and to do so responsibly. There also seems to be a lack of trust on the part of the charities, however, which is understandable. They are regulated by the Charity Commission, and a number of concerns and grumbles have been expressed about that over the years. The charities are asking for more specific guidance. Many of the issues that have been brought to my attention will be relevant under the current law. The charities are already having to make a judgment call under the existing law about whether their activities would affect the outcome of an election and whether they are dealing with regulated expenditure. Many of those issues are already relevant today.

I was asked earlier about the spending limit. Reducing the spending limit from just under £1 million to just under £400,000 is a positive step. Taking the big money out of politics is the most important thing—[Laughter.] Opposition Members might laugh and joke about that, but I remember when the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 was introduced and the Electoral Commission came into being. One of the prerequisites of being employed by the commission was that a person should have had no experience of doing anything related to elections. The process was approached from the point of view that all the local organisations that we represent are hugely well funded by mysterious millionaires behind the scenes. I can assure hon. Members that the only millionaire funder in my constituency does not support my party; they support the party to which the previous Member of Parliament belonged.

The introduction of the Bill is a positive step because it allows us to talk about the issues of transparency that matter to the public. Like many Members, I have had a lot of e-mails about the Bill from various organisations. I had one from an organisation whose name I shall not deign to mention that referred to a “gagging” Bill. The Bill will do no such thing. Not one of the 400 charities and organisations in my constituency has complained to me about the Bill, and none of them would consider themselves to be involved in political campaigning.

[Mr Tom Harris]

They are going to be in for a shock.

[Stephen McPartland]

Well, they might well be in for a shock, but they would not consider themselves to be part of a political campaign. I imagine that the debates we will have during the general election campaign will be the same old debates with the same people, and that nothing will have changed.

The Bill represents a positive step forward because it allows us to discuss the issues that matter to the public, such as the need for greater transparency in politics. One Opposition Member stated that he had previously worked for Oxfam, and some of the earlier speakers said that the problem with lobbying was that it did not involve Ministers, but that it involved civil servants, desk officers and day officers. Well, that is news to me. I genuinely think that if I had wanted to get something done when I was in business, I would have gone to the decision maker to get the deal done. We have to do it in the most transparent way possible; otherwise, we get sued. I would have thought that that was how it worked. As I said earlier, apart from what my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans said, I have never heard of lobbyists having any real influence other than what is generated by the media or within their own circle of friends, trying to inflate what they do.

I have with me information about what a number of charities are concerned about. They say that they want greater definition of regulated activities, so when the Bill is in Committee next week, we can ask those questions and get responses from the Minister on the Floor of the House. That should be good enough for a lot of charities. They are concerned, too, about whether staff costs should be included. If they are spending £800,000 on staff costs and £20,000 on leaflets, I do not know how long those charities are going to exist; if they were a business, they would not be in business for very long. It is in their own interests to gain a greater understanding of how many of their staff are involved in these campaigns. I agree with what they say about aggregate spending, and I agree that the “Enough Food for Everyone” campaign was a very important one. I believe that, as some of the charities have set out, they should be involved only for the amounts that they have popped in. The final issue relates to the levels of expenditure, and I said earlier that I agree about that.

Part 3 deals with the trade unions. I see no reason whatever why the trade unions would not want to have an up-to-date register of members, and I cannot see that this Bill will have much of an impact on most of them. Given that their subscriptions are involved, how they work on a day-to-day basis is what will count, as the unions engage with their members.