Security in Northern Ireland

Debate between Stephen Lloyd and Naomi Long

Wednesday 21st November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

I thank DUP Members for bringing this motion to the House, although, like others, I am saddened that it is so pertinent as so many positive things have happened in Northern Ireland in recent years. We have seen a remarkable transformation. The city I grew up in is unrecognisable compared with how it was during the worst of the troubles. We should be hugely grateful for that. It is an achievement of which we should all be hugely proud, having made it happen.

This is a pertinent motion, however, because the security threat in Northern Ireland is very real. It was visited most recently on the family of David Black, with his brutal murder. I want to offer again my condolences to his family—to his wife, his son and daughter, his parents and his sister, and the wider family—and his colleagues in the Northern Ireland Prison Service. It was an appalling murder committed in cold blood, and those who did it not only ruthlessly took a life but recklessly endangered others on the motorway that morning. That demonstrates their utter disregard and contempt for the entire community more effectively than any words of mine in this place could ever do.

The murder was particularly ironic, given that David Black was an officer with a strong reputation within the prison service for supporting improved prisoner welfare. The motives of his murderers contrast sharply with those prisoners in Maghaberry who found a way to mark their respect for him as an officer in that facility, seeking a book of condolences that they could sign. That is a poignant tribute to the quality of service he gave to those placed in his care in the Prison Service.

It is important also to commend the police for their ongoing efforts to counter terrorist threats from all sources. As others have mentioned, we know that two people have been arrested for questioning today in relation to the murder. I welcome that, because it describes an active and ongoing police investigation. I wish them every success in bringing those responsible to justice. In doing so, they are not just delivering justice for the family but delivering justice and protection for the wider community. It is hugely important that the community co-operate fully with the police in all their efforts. I also commend the close and effective co-operation between the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Garda. I know that my party leader, the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland, is hugely impressed and encouraged by the ongoing work in that regard.

I also commend the speedy response of the Prison Service and the police service in dealing with the concerns about the personal security of prison officers that have arisen as a result of the most recent attack. As others have said, there were concerns about the speed of clearance of applications for personal protection weapons by officers leaving the service under the early redundancy scheme. I understand that they have been at least partially addressed by way of a commitment from the Chief Constable to fast-track those applications. There were also concerns about the duration of the maintenance support for home security measures for prison officers, but I believe that they have been resolved by an amendment to the scheme by the Prison Service. Clearly, other action is being taken to address the outstanding issues.

This was not only an attack on an individual or the security services; it was an attack on the whole community, and as such it requires a security, a political and a community response. These attacks are designed to dissuade people from joining the security services, to disrupt the political system, to drive a wedge between parts of the community and to reignite and exploit sectarian tensions. It is hugely important, therefore, that we work together and present a united front against people engaged in such activities to ensure that they do not achieve any of those objectives. The community needs to pull together and co-operate with the PSNI in bringing those responsible to justice.

As we are repeatedly reminded in statements by political leaders, these dissident groups are small, but there is no direct correlation between their effectiveness and destructiveness and their size. They are forensically aware and therefore able continually to avoid detection. It is hugely important that we do not underestimate the impact that these individuals can have in our community. They have been denounced by Father Michael Canny, who sought to engage with dissident republicans and bring about a ceasefire and the disbandment of those groups. He denounced them as “mindless morons” with nothing positive to offer our community. We would all concur with his assessment, but a mindless moron with a weapon or bomb is a dangerous individual. We should never lose sight of that. These groups might lack a vision for the future, but they are a threat to the present and the future, and we need to take them seriously. They are more wedded to their struggle than to any cause, which makes it particularly difficult for political intervention to succeed.

On the security response, I want to reflect on the need for Westminster to co-operate with the Northern Ireland Executive. Like others, I welcome the additional funding made available by the Treasury for the current comprehensive spending review period, and I recognise the importance of countering the threat during this period and the level of commitment to ensuring it continues into the next period. Northern Irish Members, like Government Members, have mentioned the huge opportunities in the coming years in Northern Ireland. Huge international events are due to happen, and we are hugely thankful that those things can take place in Northern Ireland and will shine a light on the positive things happening in our community. That is something we should welcome.

We have to recognise, however, that those events will place additional pressures on the PSNI when it comes to policing them, be they the UK city of culture, the world police and fire games or the G8 summit. All those are, in effect, UK-wide events being hosted in Northern Ireland, and a single police force should not be expected to carry all the financial burden. The Police Federation for Northern Ireland recently raised with me its concerns that although mutual aid is available to the PSNI through the UK-wide scheme, it can often be difficult to access. For example, many other forces are not routinely armed or trained in the specific skills needed to engage in civil disobedience situations, as is the case in Northern Ireland. We need to consider that point when we look to police resources and what is available to them.

I am happy to support the motion, but I note an omission, which is why I am grateful for the remarks made by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) and, in response, the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) and others about loyalist paramilitaries. They are also active in our community; they are a destructive force, and the damage they can do should not be underestimated. Their activities are no longer monitored as publicly as they used to be when the Independent Monitoring Commission was involved. Often, these activities are dismissed, even when we raise them with the Northern Ireland Office, as merely criminality, but it is criminality with a political purpose, and we should never lose sight of that. We should be wary of not monitoring it as effectively and publicly as we have done in the past. Allegations of such groups recruiting young people are rife, and there is evidence of their being involved in civil unrest on the streets of our city and our towns over the last few months, as others have said.

[Stephen Lloyd]

Does the hon. Lady agree that one of the challenges in some parts of Northern Ireland is that some loyalist racketeers are blocking the good work that the devolved Government are trying to do to improve employment prospects?

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Stephen Lloyd and Naomi Long

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)]

Given the breadth of the Bill, I intend to focus on the work aspects.

The right hon. Member for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks) is no longer in the Chamber, but I trust that he will not mind if I, too, quote Beveridge, who famously said:

“Want is one only of five giants on the road of reconstruction; the others are Disease, Ignorance, Squalor, and Idleness.”

As we all know, those words were written at a time of real poverty for many people in the United Kingdom. How do they apply today, in the 21st century? Indeed, do they apply today? My supposition is that they do. Today, 10.4 million people of working age in the United Kingdom are not working, 5.9 million are claiming out-of-work benefits, and more than 2 million children live in households in which no one is working. It was the great Nye Bevan who said:

“There is no test for progress other than its impact on the individual.”

Yet, today 3.9 million children still live below the poverty line. Some progress! Surely it is time to do something different.

I support the Bill’s Second Reading because I believe that, in the main, it approaches this intransigent issue intelligently and constructively. The nation has got stuck, and it has got stuck because of the system. I do not think that anyone in the Government is particularly at fault, because the problem has built up over the past 40 years. A key part of breaking the system, which I believe the Bill is doing, is making work pay—a concept that the Secretary of State has championed for some time—and that means changing the tax and benefit system.

I will not go into all the details, because I am sure that everyone in the Chamber is well aware of them, but, as some Members have already pointed out, more often than not there is no point in people coming off benefit and going into work because they will be worse off as a result. A constituent of mine, a single mum with three kids who is on housing benefit and the rest, has not worked for 15 years. The rational option for her is to stay on benefit, and if I were her that is what I would do. It would be insane for her to come off benefit: she would probably lose out under the system that we have had for years, and what would happen if she lost her job in a few months’ time? The system is insane, and the Bill attempts to transform it.

[Naomi Long]

Another potential benefit of removing the limit on the number of hours that can be worked by claimants—currently about 16—is that employers would be more likely to take on people part-time, such as lone parents, because they would have more flexibility.

[Stephen Lloyd]

I agree with every word that the hon. Lady said.

How are we to help people back into work when they have been receiving incapacity benefit, jobseeker’s allowance or a similar benefit? As I said when I intervened on the right hon. Member for Croydon North, the Bill will provide much more money for training providers to give them an incentive to focus on people who have been on benefit for a long time, and make it worth their while to spend extra time and resources helping those people back into work. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Bill copies measures taken by the previous Government in that regard. That is true to an extent, but it does a great deal more than that.

In the past 24 hours, I have been in touch with the National Audit Office, according to which the average payment from the DWP to training providers for pathways to work was £1,003 per job. Under the current proposals, providers will be paid a minimum of £3,800 and a maximum of £13,700. What lies behind the Bill is our recognition of the fact that people have been “parked” for years, which is outrageous. Whichever side of the Chamber we are on, we know that if the many people who have been out of work for a long time are to be helped, they will need that extra effort, extra mentoring and extra time. The only way in which we shall persuade training providers to do that is by stuffing their mouths with gold, as Bevan said in the ’50s in respect of the British Medical Association. The Bill attempts to achieve that by making training providers feel it is worth their while expending the extra effort to get people back into work, which is tremendous.

The previous Government introduced the black box concept, and I am glad that we are building on that to start using subcontractors’ imaginative ideas. That is all good and very rational, and it is a simple solution, too. Members on both sides of the House know that, where possible, work is the best route out of poverty.

There are downsides, however. The economy is challenged—that is the best word I can use. I spoke to a senior disability spokesperson the day before yesterday. I said, “Well, it’s obviously very hard for us to get all these extra people into jobs when we’re faced with such a difficult economic situation.” She replied, “Stephen, you’re absolutely right, but at least if we start doing the spadework now it is just possible that when the economy turns in a couple of years the foundations will have been laid and a lot of people who might have seen themselves as never working again could, through the mentoring, be in a position to be able to be swept along with the upswing in the economy.” I certainly hope so, because it is very difficult to achieve such radical reforms now when we face an economic crisis.

I want to give a message to the Minister, and I am sorry that all his colleagues are not present, as this applies to the entire ministerial team. The Bill is tremendous; it is a glass-half-full Bill and it recognises that we have to spend money, which is why I appreciate the Secretary of State getting the £2.5 billion from the Treasury. We have to pour money into this problem to transform the situation, but we must change the language if we are to get people who for years have been on IB or other benefits back into work.

The Bill is clearly designed to do that, which is why it approaches the issue in such a constructive way. I was in Burnley with the Work and Pensions Committee a couple of days ago. A training provider who is very successful in getting people into work said, “If there’s one message to give to the Government it is this: respect. Use the right words, and treat people who have been on IB and on benefits for a long time with respect.” I therefore say that we must use the right words.

The Bill is fit for purpose. I think it will transform the situation, and I will support it on Second Reading.