Continuous At-Sea Deterrent

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Stewart Malcolm McDonald

Wednesday 10th April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kerr]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. History shows that a balance of threat in the world is a real deterrent to aggression.

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

The hon. Gentleman talks about history and peace, but I remind him that 25% of the UN’s peacekeeping force during the cold war came from the four Nordic countries. What is wrong with a defence posture similar to theirs?

[Stephen Kerr]

As I will say later on, we are a peacekeeper and peacemaker because of our commitment to freedom and its defence. We are protected and insured against aggression by our collective will and our collective commitment to stay strong, but we must be prepared to commit resources to that end. While we are rightly proud of our armed forces, which are the undoubtedly the best in the world—I have heard the Defence Secretary on several occasions say that they represent the best of us and the best of our Union—and proud of their operational capabilities and reach, I worry that they are simply not big enough for everything we ask of them. I remind the House, although it needs little reminder, that behind our men and women in the Queen’s uniform there are families.

Scotland’s national motto—the House will forgive my schoolboy Latin—is “Nemo me impune lacessit,” which, appropriately for this debate, means, “No one provokes me with impunity.” In Scots, we might say, “Wha daur meddle wi’ me?” Our strength is not only our defence, but defence to our friends and allies in NATO, and the hon. Member for Bridgend spoke so well about the importance of the combined strengths of NATO’s members. The UK is not a warmonger. We take our nuclear non-proliferation obligations seriously and remain committed, as a country, to the long-term goal of a world without nuclear weapons, and the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) made an outstanding contribution on that point.

However, the nuclear arsenal is a vital part of western defence under the NATO umbrella. We enjoy a hard-won peace, and there has been no recent major state-on-state conflict, principally because of the strength of resolve of the members of NATO, to which I am proud that we contribute. Aggressors need to know that they will face consequences. Our love of peace should not be misinterpreted by anyone. We are resolved to protect it by being strong in the deployment of soft power through diplomacy and hard power through our armed forces. Our security is put at risk by those who would simply dismantle such capabilities. We should not glory in weapons systems. This country, rightly, does not parade its missiles, as some countries do, but we should not be ashamed of our nuclear stance.

The Leader of the Opposition, who has always opposed nuclear weapons from a position of principle, would put our country at risk if he ever sat in 10 Downing Street. Anyone aspiring to this country’s greatest office of government should be prepared to put our national security front and centre, and anyone who aspires to that job must accept the important place of the nuclear deterrent in our defensive formation.

The SNP position is clearer than Labour’s, and the position derives from the party’s position on independence. The House needs to understand that, for the past few years, the SNP has been busy trying to build a wide coalition of support in Scotland to break up the United Kingdom, and it is doing that by pivoting, contorting and doing whatever it has to do to mop up as much support as possible.

It is not so long ago that the SNP was not just not in favour of NATO but was anti-NATO, and Alex Salmond persuaded his followers that they needed to be more realistic about the mood of the most conservative nation in these British Isles, namely the Scots, who would never wear the idea of us walking away from our obligations and responsibilities to other free people in the world. He persuaded the party that it needed to embrace the idea of NATO, and it now has this half-hearted position of saying that it would be in NATO on certain conditions. But those conditions would make Scotland an unsuitable and inappropriate member of NATO. There are many principled proponents of disarmament in the SNP.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

Is it the hon. Gentleman’s policy that, if Scotland votes for independence, it should not be a member of NATO?

[Stephen Kerr]

I will do everything in my power to make sure that Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom. Until my last breath, I will make the argument for my country remaining part of the most successful Union in hundreds of years.

I am running out of time, so I simply say that I have great respect for those who serve in our armed forces. I have met many submariners and former submariners, and I cannot but be impressed by their courage and resolve. The life these people have chosen to lead in defence of our country is one of sacrifice and commitment. They are at sea for many months, separated from family and friends, in cramped and, I would say, claustrophobic conditions.

There is no doubt in my mind about the need for a continuous at-sea nuclear deterrent. The world has changed and will continue to change, but the insurance policy of our nuclear submarine fleet and the missiles and weapons it carries is still an essential part of our national defence. We enjoy a hard-won peace, but it is a watchful peace that requires eternal vigilance by our submariners, armed forces and security forces, and they deserve the support of our nation’s Parliament.

Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Stewart Malcolm McDonald

2nd reading: House of Commons & Money resolution: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons & Ways and Means resolution: House of Commons
Monday 28th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)]

It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) and my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart). I was not going to mention this, but it now seems appropriate: my mother, Sheila Lillian Harman Kerr, passed away on Thursday evening. She was a daughter of Birmingham, so I have a bit of Brum inside me. Members may not be able to discern it from my accent, but a bit of Birmingham lingers in my heart. I feel she might be smiling at the fact that I am following such an excellent Member of Parliament for Birmingham and someone who represents someone who was a servant of the city of Birmingham.

I rise to support the Second Reading of this Bill on a key matter relating to our departure from the European Union: control over our borders. I thank Ministers for their decision to scrap the charges for the settled status process for EU citizens. In particular, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) for the very significant part he played in bringing that about. I know how much that means to people in my constituency. It is very important that our actions in government match our words. We must send a clear message to our family members, friends, neighbours and colleagues who have come to this country from the European Union, and to whom this country is now home, that they are a vital part our community. They enrich our lives and play a hugely valuable part in our economy, and I deeply regret any suggestion from any source to the contrary. Members of this House owe it to their constituents and the reputation of this House to measure the way they express themselves about such matters, and in interventions they make in debates about our departure from the European Union.

I have several points to make about the Bill. The first is about the university sector, and the University of Stirling in particular. In a report for Destination for Education, KPMG calculated that every international student recruited to a British university brings a net positive economic contribution of £95,000 in total. For the academic year 2015-16, that was estimated to be worth £20.3 billion. We are talking about a major British exporting success. I am proud of the UK university sector’s global standing, and I am proud that the University of Stirling is consistently highly rated as a destination of choice for international students. Stirling loves its international students and welcomes them with open arms.

Our world-class university system is the envy of the world and an unrivalled source of soft power influence in the world. I do not believe that student visas should be subject to any kind of cap, and I was encouraged by the Home Secretary’s remarks on that matter. We are competing with other English-speaking countries. By making it more difficult to access British universities than those of our competitors, we are doing ourselves no favours. We are in danger of losing market share in a growing global market. International students applying for bona fide courses at bona fide institutions should be allowed to come here. After all, they will support themselves.

We need a visa system that reflects an unabashed bias towards attracting and retaining talent, including newly qualified international graduates and postgraduates from UK universities. Why on earth would we not want such talent to stay in the United Kingdom to the benefit of our economy and the public good? As with other issues that we examine in this House, we must look for the balance of fairness. It is not fair or right to expect an international worker, graduate or postgraduate to earn more than £30,000 per annum, and to say that they qualify as skilled labour only on that basis. That would be a terrible mistake. The average graduate salary in Scotland is in the region of £21,000. Instead of rigidly fixing the system to a formula based on notional taxation contributions, we should look at earnings potential and social contribution.

We must be fair to businesses of all sizes. I ask hon. Members to consider how difficult it is for a small business to sponsor an international worker for employment in the United Kingdom. I worked for a global businesses before coming to this House, but what works for a big business does not necessarily work for a small business. The test of what is good for our economy is not how a global corporation copes with an imposed process, but how it works for a small business with limited resources.

I say this to the Government: beware of a one-size-fits-all approach to skilled labour. I would have thought that it is stating the obvious to say that what works in London and the south-east will not be right for other parts of the United Kingdom, so we must build flexibility into whatever policy we apply. The variables must be weighted to ensure that skilled labour can be attracted and retained in all parts of the United Kingdom and all scales of business.

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

I rather suspect the hon. Gentleman will not agree that immigration should be devolved, so let us park that to one side. What role should the devolved Governments have in setting UK immigration policy?

[Stephen Kerr]

I have long said in this House and outside it that the best way forward for the people of Scotland is for Scotland’s two Governments to work closely together, and I have made suggestions about how working together might be interpreted in a constitutional machinery sense. I am very grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. I think it is important that Scotland’s Governments work together on this issue.

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

I am extremely grateful for that. Will the hon. Gentleman explain that point? What should the devolved Governments’ role be? Should they get to set student numbers or have different salary thresholds?

[Stephen Kerr]

I do not think we should be talking about student numbers at all. The Home Secretary said earlier that there should be no cap on student numbers. It is important that we establish a constitutional process whereby the Governments of Scotland work together and talk and listen to each other.

Strengthening the Union

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Stewart Malcolm McDonald

Monday 23rd July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)]

I rise to defend and advance the cause of the Union: the most successful political and economic union between nations in the history of the world; a union that, as a force for good, built the modern world that we live in; the Union between Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland; our precious United Kingdom. I remind the House that Adam Smith described the Union from the perspective of Scotland as

“a measure from which infinite good has been derived to this country.”

Amen to that.

The Union defines who I am, with a Scots father and an English mother. Three of my four children have married spouses from Northern Ireland and England. More generally, our Union is also a matter of family. We are a family of nations. For me, the Union has always been a much deeper issue than economics or other additions of numbers. It is, in fact, a matter of the heart. The Union between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom has together defeated fascism, seen out communism and helped to shape today’s modern world. It is a bulwark of democracy and freedom that uses its wealth for good to help some of the poorest people around the world.

As I said, the Union is a family. The English, Welsh and those from Northern Ireland are our cousins, nieces, nephews, wives and husbands. In my case, they are my mother, my son-in-law, my daughters-in-law and my grandchildren. We should not cast aside this social union for the sake of some backward-looking nationalist instinct. We must always call out nationalism for what it is. Wherever it is in the world, it has created havoc and destruction by creating divisions between people. It is a deeply unpleasant and unattractive ideology.

The nationalists try to portray themselves as civic and joyous, inclusive and accepting, but it is all wearing rather thin now. The “All Under One Banner” march took place in my constituency a few weeks ago. At the heart of the march was a huge banner that read, “Tory scum out.” The march was a display of political intolerance. I urge all those who say that they were on with the march but did not agree with the “Tory scum out” banner or the “F the Tories” mugs that were on sale to note the name of the rally, which was “All Under One Banner”. That banner is barely disguised political bigotry. That is what my constituents in Stirling saw and that is how they judged it.

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

I just say to the hon. Gentleman that he is many things; a piece of scum is not one of them. I would deprecate that banner and, as I am sure he knows, the decent majority also deprecates that banner. The sooner that it is caught, melted down, recycled or whatever, the better.

[Stephen Kerr]

The hon. Gentleman is indeed honourable, because he has been the very first on social media to condemn the antics of the extreme elements of the nationalist movement that these events sadly attract, as we know only too well. I will not relate anything further to do with my social media timelines because, as the hon. Gentleman knows, it is not the kind of place for us to spend any time if we want to keep our sanity.

It is time for us Unionists to engage with and defend the Union against this kind of onslaught. It is time for us to seek a future that will combat nationalism and constantly rejuvenate the Union so that it will endure. I say this particularly for the benefit of my English and Welsh colleagues in the Chamber, who perhaps do not really appreciate the nature of Scottish nationalism on the ground as we encounter it as Scottish Conservative Members of Parliament. We do not expect co-operation or partnering from nationalism. We do not expect there to be some agreement—some middle ground. The aim of the nationalists is disruption, division and manufactured grievance, not unity: they are not interested in that because it does not serve their party political objectives.

Divergence is a very important part of what we get from devolution. I have absolutely no issue with that. I believe passionately in local democracy, and the divergence that comes through local democracy, but I do not hold with divergence for the sake of it. Of course we need locally tailored policy solutions to meet local conditions, but divergence that gives the Union strength is when it is for a good reason. We have a Scottish legal system that is tailored to our country. We have an education system that is tailored to our country: it is ours. All these things provide the strength whereby Scotland can have solutions for its own systems, its unique history, and the needs of its people.

But in some areas, divergence is pointless—for example, having a separate card for public transport in England and in Scotland, coming up with two different systems for deposit returns, or dismantling the British Transport police simply because it has “British” in its name. This is merely nationalist ideology that we have to be strong in standing up against. These differences are not about public policy necessities—they are about pulling Scotland apart from the rest of the United Kingdom to become separate. The nationalists want to use divergence to create division. They want to make the Union dysfunctional. I want the Union to work better. My hon. Friend the Minister will therefore not be surprised to hear that I will persist in my argument for a stronger and more functional Union that serves all the people and all parts of the United Kingdom.

My constituents in Stirling pay their taxes, and now, in many cases, they pay significantly more tax than any other part of the United Kingdom. They pay their share of the cost of Whitehall Departments. They get the same protection from the armed forces. They get the same help and support abroad when they visit a consulate or an embassy. But when it comes to some of the other Union Departments, the support becomes less clear. We should make that clear by renaming Ministries and Departments that serve England only as such—for example, “the Department for Health and Social Care for England”. Ministries serving the whole of the United Kingdom should, as a matter of course, be asking what policy implications there are for Scotland, for Wales, for Northern Ireland and for the regions of England.

I am afraid that there is a concept that is endemic in government in this respect. It is not specific to this Government but to all previous Governments since the devolution settlement, and it is, “Devolve and forget.” That phenomenon plagues Government and must be guarded against. The UK Government are as much the UK Government in Edinburgh as they are in Chester. Part of the issue is that UK Government Departments operate through the prism of their territorial offices. The propensity for UK Departments to dump issues into the laps of the Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland Offices is very high.

UK Departments also far too easily think about devolving further to the Scottish Parliament, as almost an automatic reaction. Sometimes that is appropriate and right, but at other times, frankly, it leads to problems and unnecessary confusion. I would take as an example the broadband issue that plagues us in Scotland.

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

What exactly have UK Departments rushed to devolve that they should not have devolved? [Interruption.]

[Stephen Kerr]

Well, the British Transport police, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Luke Graham) rightly says, is the example that immediately springs to mind.

The delivery of broadband is another example, as I said. We should never have devolved the delivery of broadband to the Scottish Government. They were given the responsibility of delivering broadband in Scotland by Broadband Delivery UK, and the result is mayhem. We are so far behind other parts of the United Kingdom on the delivery of broadband because we allowed the Scottish Government to get involved in the first place. We can see the problems with the situation that has arisen, which makes it unclear who is responsible. Broadband is a good example of this. When anything good happens in Scotland, Scottish Government Ministers will turn up and get their photographs taken, but when anything goes wrong in Scotland, it is suddenly all reserved—they point at us and say, “Oh, it’s reserved; you should deal with it.” These kinds of games go on all the time. It is insidious and makes it all the easier for the nationalists, in that space of confusion, with their ideology of grievance and division, to do just that. We must avoid that by improving our system and machinery of governance.

Now—one minute! [Laughter.] I have one minute. The best bit’s to come. UK Government Departments should be unafraid to fly their colours in Scotland, to proudly hoist the Union flag above their offices every single day of the year, not just on the Queen’s birthday, and to tell the people of Scotland, loudly and proudly, that their United Kingdom Government is serving them. It would show people clearly that Scotland has two Governments and that both are working to deliver vital public services to them, even if they need to work more closely together.

It may seem somewhat controversial, but this debate about the intergovernmental relations in the UK will continue until we address the machinery we need to make the Governments of this country work more closely together. Ironically, I turn to the White Paper on the future relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union. I got as far as chapter 4, where I read details about how the different Governments, Departments and Parliaments could work together for the benefit of the people. With no small sense of irony, I advise the Government to read chapter 4 on page 84 —many people never got to page 84, I am sure, but I did. It talks about how arrangements could be put in place by which Governments could work together. It is a very interesting chapter. I refer in particular to paragraph 2. The institutional arrangements it proposes are practical and flexible and would create a dialogue and mechanisms for resolving disputes and the accountability and mutual constructive tension necessary for us to get the best government possible for the people of our country.

I will conclude.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

The hon. Gentleman is in a unique position, as is the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont), who is sitting on the Bench behind him. They left the Scottish Parliament to come to this Parliament, but even with that in mind—I add it purely for information—the hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) is entirely entitled to raise any issue he wishes to, whether it is devolved or reserved. However, I come back to the point that he gave up a seat in a devolved legislature to come to this place to hold this Government accountable. He does a job for his constituents, and he is entirely right to do that.

I come to the tone in which we have these arguments. Some of the points that the hon. Member for Stirling (Stephen Kerr) raised earlier were uncomfortable to listen to. Indeed, it is uncomfortable to see anyone on my side of the constitutional question hold up a “Tory scum out” banner such as he mentioned, far less march behind it with any sense of pride. I do not think Tories are scum. I think a lot of their policies are terrible policies, and I will argue and fight against them at election time. Ultimately, I will argue for the ultimate salvation from them, which I believe to be Scottish independence, but we need to get better at disagreeing with one another.

[Stephen Kerr]

I again commend the hon. Gentleman for his spirited defence of democracy in this context, but why did the MSPs for Stirling and for Clackmannanshire and Dunblane not join him in condemning that banner when they were at the march behind it? It just does not make sense to me. This is where the disjunction occurs.

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

Perhaps I can help the hon. Gentleman. I know he believes what I am saying to be sincere. I do not believe that any of those individuals had their picture taken with the banner. Indeed, this was a march of many, many thousands of people. I only wish that more people had moved to get those responsible out—I understand that some did— and I certainly hope that they do not turn up again, but the hon. Gentleman will have to raise what individuals do with those individuals.

I see you getting anxious, Mr Deputy Speaker, so I will draw to a conclusion. Although the Union is clearly important to many people, not just in this House but right across the United Kingdom, I am afraid that this has been a very small subject for debate. Opposition parties regularly table debates on various hobby-horse issues. That is what Opposition parties do, but we are supposed to expect a bit more from the Government. At a time of such threats to international peace, international order and the rules-based system, which the Prime Minister regularly stands at the Dispatch Box and talks about, and indeed I regularly find myself in agreement with her; at a time when the far right is on the rise in fundraising and organising and displacing moderate, centre-left or centre-ground people right across Europe; at a time when fascists and racists are no longer embarrassed to be fascists or racists and are shaking off those cloaks that we have made them wear for many decades—is this issue what the Government want to bring forward for debate? It really is a small subject.

I accept that the Union is important—of course it is important. I grew up in a heavily Unionist household. Indeed, my own father will watch this speech and quite possibly tell me I was talking a load of rubbish. I make no observation other than that, but I am afraid the world is bigger than Scotland and bigger than Britain, and it is a dangerous time out there. The Government have chosen to table this debate, which, frankly, is a university debating society issue at this moment in time. This is supposed to be a legislature. We are here to legislate and hold the Government accountable, and the Government have utterly shirked that in tabling this debate this evening.

Defence Industry and Shipbuilding

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Stewart Malcolm McDonald

Wednesday 11th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP)]

After the Minister’s interesting and generous 40-minute speech, I will cut my remarks short. [Hon. Members: “No!”] Oh, don’t tempt me. I will perhaps not be as generous as the Minister, to allow colleagues, particularly those with constituency interests, to speak. [Interruption.] With the upcoming England game, I am happy to detain hon. Members, if that is really what they want me to do. In the spirit with which the shadow Secretary of State opened the debate, the phrase “It’s coming home” does not at all stick in my throat. In this debate, I think that we should stick to the phrase, “It ought to be coming home.”

This debate takes place on the day and against the backdrop of the Prime Minister being at the NATO summit in Europe. History has a strange habit of repeating itself; when the last female Prime Minister was at an important summit in Europe, her Back Benchers were concocting a plan to remove her as party leader and as Prime Minister. I can only assume that the current Prime Minister is hoping that history is a bit kinder to her as the summit progresses today. But, of course, it is shaping up to repeat itself, because this has all the hallmarks of Westminster again selling out shipbuilding across the United Kingdom.

The Government seem intent to ignore much of what the shadow Secretary of State has outlined and, I am sure, much that will be adumbrated by other colleagues as the afternoon progresses. The Government are ignoring the real value to the taxpayer, ignoring the craft and the skill of shipbuilders across the UK, and ignoring what is in our own economic, political and national security interests. Given that the Department has a black hole of up to £20 billion, I would have thought that this was something of which the Government wanted to take real cognisance.

I do not level the following accusation at either Minister on the Treasury Bench right now, but when the Government have manoeuvred for self-interest all week long—and it is only Wednesday—now would be a good time to switch around, do the right thing and confirm that the fleet support ships will be built here in the UK. The financial benefits have already been outlined by colleagues outwith this place. The GMB union estimates that it can create and secure up to 6,500 jobs, including almost 2,000 in shipbuilding directly, that it can generate almost the best part of £300 million a year for the UK Exchequer and, as has been mentioned by the shadow Secretary of State, that it can provide a return of 36p for every pound that is spent.

I grew up in the town of Govan, which is represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens). I know what it is like to grow up in a town that relies on shipbuilding and to see it go almost to its knees, as it did in the early 1990s. I am sure that Glasgow MPs and colleagues from other shipbuilding constituencies will be damned if this Government are going to do that again.

[Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)]

Is not it fantastic that there is enough work to keep the Govan shipyards full until the mid-2030s?

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

Oh, I am going to come to that. The hon. Gentleman leapt up, but sometimes hon. Members’ interventions are best made from their seats; that might have been one of them.

On whether this is a civilian ship or a warship, my party is in agreement with the shadow Secretary of State. We think that the Government have the wrong definition and we do not believe that they are actually fulfilling their responsibilities as far as the Parker report is concerned. These ships are armed and, as has been mentioned, take part in counter-piracy and counter-narcotics missions.

I want to read a quote from the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), who is responsible for procurement. He said in a written answer on 27 April this year:

“The programme to deliver the Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) Fleet Solid Support ships is in the Assessment Phase. We expect that the ships will be provided with a limited range of weapons and sensors for self-protection, most likely to include small arms, and close range guns such as Phalanx. The exact equipment provision has not yet been finalised but will remain consistent with the defensive measures provided to RFA vessels.”

On that definition, the Minister who has just spoken is getting it wrong.

NATO

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Stewart Malcolm McDonald

Wednesday 20th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

I take the Secretary of State’s point entirely. I had not intended to get so caught up in the Trump issue, but I am grateful for what the Secretary of State says. It would be good to see him forcefully remind the entirety of the Trump Administration—of course there are people in there who are agreeable and who get this sort of stuff—of the importance of the alliance to them and the European continent.

[Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

I want to make a bit of progress.

I want to address one other issue that I am sure will be on the lips of many at the upcoming summit, and that is Nord Stream 2. I had the pleasure recently of visiting Ukraine, and I had a series of meetings with politicians, senior civil servants, journalists, and civil society and anti-corruption activists. I would like to pay a generous tribute to the UK personnel working from the embassy out there, led by the ambassador, Judith Gough, who is doing an outstanding job.

Ukraine is, of course, not a NATO state. It is on the frontline of a military and an ideological war—and we should understand that, for Ukraine, it is indeed a war. In just about every one of those meetings, the issue of Nord Stream 2 came up. People want to know why Ukraine’s allies are allowing such a project—which would deliver enormous financial and political capital and leverage right into the hands of the Kremlin—to go ahead without much protest.

This is where the Americans have got it right. In so far as I can understand it—I am willing and hoping to be proven wrong by the Government—the UK Government position appears to be that this is a matter entirely for the Germans, the Danes and the Russians. Why are the Government feigning such impotence? Do they really believe that the establishment of Nord Stream 2 has no repercussions beyond those three states? Can they really not see the potential security threat that it so obviously represents to the United Kingdom and the alliance? I implore the Secretary of State, with the support of those on these Benches, to start some robust and frank dialogue with our allies and not to allow this white elephant to turn into a potentially dangerous snake.

Unpaid Trial Work Periods (Prohibition) Bill

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Stewart Malcolm McDonald

2nd reading: House of Commons
Friday 16th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Surely to goodness, there is not anyone on a Bench here in this House who thinks that that kind of practice can be justified.

[Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)]

indicated assent.

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

I see that the hon. Gentleman is nodding, and thank goodness for that. I thank him, too, for his support for the Bill—he was actually a very early supporter of it.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) is absolutely right. I argue, as I am sure that he, as a man with fine trade union credentials that would be tough to challenge on these Benches, does too, that employment law is heavily stacked in favour of the employer. It actually provides employers with sufficient instruments to try people out as it is. Why can people not be put on a probation period, as is normal in most mainstream jobs where good employers do that? For example, the Conservative-led coalition, of two Parliaments ago now, changed employment law so that people can effectively be dismissed in the first two years of employment. That is something that I disagree with; I would not have voted for that. None the less, with those kind of instruments at employers’ disposal, there is no need to try people out for 10 hours, 40 hours, or four weeks, as I mentioned earlier.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

I am sure that is untrue.

I mentioned retail and hospitality because those were the industries that came up most in my consultation. Amazingly, the British Retail Consortium refused even to discuss the issue with me because it thought there was not a problem. That is news to a young man from North Lanarkshire who was abused by the retail store, B&M Bargains. I used to love going into B&M Bargains, perhaps to pick up some toothpaste and then spending 25 quid because it is the kind of shop where people buy things they do not need. I was horrified to learn that it had had a young man with autism, in the hope of securing work, stacking shelves for three or four days, only to dismiss him at the end of it, saying, “You’re not required any more—off you go”, with no pay and no chance of a response.

[Stephen Kerr]

What interests me is the demoralising effect of that situation on that individual. It is this devil-may-care attitude towards other people that really gets under my skin. This Bill is about fairness, and I commend the hon. Gentleman for bringing it forward.

Social Security

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Stewart Malcolm McDonald

Monday 5th February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kerr]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way unbidden. Let me ask him the same question. I do not dispute the sincerity or passion that SNP Members have on this issue, but since 2016 the Scottish Government have had powers to top up reserved benefits. So if SNP Members feel as passionately as they seem to, what are the SNP Government in Scotland going to do in practical terms—

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP)]

It is happening now—