Constitutional Law

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Neil Gray

Wednesday 10th April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)]

I rise to give my support to this statutory instrument, brought before the House in the name of the Secretary of State for Scotland. It is important because it is about facilitating twin areas of vital national interest: the need for us to continue to support the efficient development of cheap, clean energy generation; and the crying-out-loud need for us to double down on our efforts to stick to hitting our legally binding carbon reduction budgets. Scotland is playing a massive role in giving the UK a lead on clean energy in the G7. That is not just something to take quiet satisfaction from; it is something to shout from the rooftops. In short, that is why I wanted to speak in support of this SI. Yes, it is about a couple of technical amendments, but they point towards a couple of greater things that need to be highlighted.

The first is perhaps a little subtle, but it is significant—it is a political and constitutional point. The SNP in this place and elsewhere—in fact, everywhere that it is given a platform or a microphone—will go on and on about how outrageous everything is and how blatant the UK Government are in their dealings with Scottish interests, saying that they do not listen, they do not co-operate, and so on. My Scottish Conservative and Unionist colleagues in this House and I bear the brunt of this kind of rhetoric through the vile abuse that we receive from fundamentalist nationalists. A Cabinet Secretary in the Scottish Government even called us all traitors—yes, a Cabinet Secretary.

The truth is a very long way away from that kind of bare-faced politicking. It needs to be said and this SI illustrates it well: there is actually a very good working relationship between the SNP Scottish Government and the Conservative and Unionist UK Government. Privately, the Scottish Government’s Ministers get on with getting on with the UK Government. While things can always be improved upon—as Members will know, I have many ideas about how that might be done—the day-to-day business of co-operating and collaborating is going on, largely insulated from the faux rage and grievance manufacturing of the SNP.

I was talking to an SNP Member the other day—someone I quite like and respect—who said something to the effect that we always disagree on everything. I said, “No, we actually agree on a lot of things a lot of the time.” That Member said to me, “Whatever you do, don’t tell my supporters in my constituency that.” That sums up the SNP attitude for me.

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

How is the hon. Gentleman getting on with encouraging his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to ensure that Ministers are rolling back on the cuts to onshore wind subsidies, which is obviously a crucial industry for Scotland and the hon. Gentleman’s constituency?

Devolution of Welfare

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Neil Gray

Tuesday 9th April 2019 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Kerr]

My hon. Friend is correct; there is no issue that it is beyond the SNP’s powers to politicise and use for its own nationalist agenda. Clearly, these things are more complex than they seem, and I accept that. I do not really want the SNP taking these powers and using them if it cannot handle them, because we are talking about the lives of the most vulnerable people in Scotland, who deserve to be protected from any possible incompetence on the part of the SNP. The SNP’s track record on IT systems alone is a horror story, and the farm payments fiasco is a warning.

[Neil Gray]

The hon. Gentleman warns of the problems that his constituents could face if this system is not delivered effectively. To his credit, he has been a critic of this Government on universal credit, so does he not think it a tad ironic to be speaking about the potential incompetence of the Scottish Government who are delivering a safe system when his Government have presided over the shambles of universal credit and personal independence payments?

[Stephen Kerr]

The hon. Gentleman is someone I respect, but we are talking about the Scottish Government’s willingness to accept powers that have been devolved to them, and their unwillingness to touch those powers speaks volumes about them. They will now take until 2024 instead of 2020. That is more than 3,000 days’ notice—six times the number of days the SNP told us it would need to set up the new Scotland that it promised the Scottish people in 2014. This is the sad state of affairs of the SNP.

The fact is that the SNP does not want to have to handle these powers, because they are difficult powers to handle. Welfare and benefits are expensive and complex; they need politicians to be grown up, to make difficult decisions and to show leadership. Let us be clear: the next time we hear SNP politicians in this place or elsewhere deriding welfare reform or bemoaning a decision that they view as disadvantageous to their constituents, they will be complicit. The SNP Government could have set up a social security system; they could have grasped the nettle and dealt with this, but, through either political cowardice or sheer incompetence, they have failed the challenge.

The people of Scotland are sick and tired of the SNP and its excuses. Devolution works. The powers are there. It is simply the nationalists who, through their wilful negligence, are leaving Scotland to stagnate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

Thank you very much, Mr Betts. It is a pleasure to speak in this debate with you, my Finance Committee colleague, in the Chair. I congratulate the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) on securing the debate, as it gives us an opportunity to talk about the great work being done by the SNP Scottish Government—

[Stephen Kerr]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Neil Gray]

At least let me get started.

With support from other parties and brilliant stakeholders in Scotland, we are working to build our new social security system. I welcome the fact that the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk has a newfound interest in this area. Until now, he does not appear to have had much of an interest in the work and pensions brief since arriving in this House. A quick look at his speaking record shows that he has never mentioned universal credit or employment support allowance, and has raised personal independence payments—[Interruption.] I will not be shouted down, Mr Betts. The hon. Gentleman has raised personal independence payments just once, which, given the case that I and other colleagues have in this area, I find surprising.

If other search terms are entered, however, the number of mentions made by the hon. Gentleman rockets up. “The Scottish Government” gets 242 mentions, “the Scottish National party” gets 37, “the SNP” gets 116 and “independence” gets 43. That is quite the contrast. Those speaking records perhaps speak not just to his intentions today, but more to what he regards as his purpose in this place: not so much being part of a bloc of Scottish Tories holding this shambles of a British Government to account, but trying to do the job that he left as an Opposition Member of the Scottish Parliament.

I will tackle some of what the hon. Gentleman said and highlight some of what he conveniently forgot to say. I note that he did not once mention how the Scottish Government could safely deliver the new system any faster. I think we were right, having learned from the unsafe and disastrous delivery of universal credit and the personal independence payment, to take our time, do this properly and deliver it safely for our constituents who depend on it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Gray]

Yes, I do. The hon. Gentleman is a former Member of the Holyrood Parliament, so he knows how quickly legislation can progress through Parliament, and he knows the steps that need to go through in order—[Interruption.] I will not be shouted down. The hon. Gentleman knows how legislation goes through Holyrood, and knows that these things take time. Sadly, we are now, thanks to the intransigence of DWP Ministers, in a position whereby certain things are being delayed. I go back to the point that the hon. Gentleman had never mentioned universal credit and had mentioned PIP once before today’s debate. I am very surprised at that. He does not seem to have a problem with the delay—

[Stephen Kerr]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Social Security

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Neil Gray

Monday 5th February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is making an impassioned speech and I respect his position on these matters, but it is worth asking this question: since 2016, the Scottish Government have had powers to top up reserved benefits—indeed, they have a wide range of powers in relation to welfare matters—so what do the SNP Government in Scotland intend to do in relation to those benefits?

[Neil Gray]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the new Scottish social security agency Bill is going through the Scottish Parliament so that we can bring in measures that allow us to make changes to how things are done down here. He will also be aware that we have put in place hundreds of millions of pounds of mitigation spending over the past few years, including to ensure that none of his constituents have to be impacted by the iniquitous bedroom tax.

[Stephen Kerr]

rose—

[Neil Gray]

I think we have heard enough, and I am sure that if the hon. Gentleman wishes to, he can make a speech later.

The order will not do much to make up for the lack of conformity that the European Committee of Social Rights has highlighted, and that Ministers seem so clueless about. Its latest report follows the High Court ruling on the UK Government’s changes to personal independence payments, which said that the system “blatantly discriminates” against people with mental health problems, and a report from the UN saying that Tory benefit cuts “violate human rights”. This Government have another new Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, who has thankfully accepted the High Court ruling on PIP. Perhaps it is time for her to take a fresh look at all the other areas of international criticism as well.

On pensions, Ministers will not be surprised at my disappointment that another year has gone by without any action on frozen pensions or to sort out the state pension inequalities faced by women. Accompanying the order are regulations—they are brought forward annually under the negative procedure—ensuring that the state pension uprating will not apply to people entitled to the pension living in certain countries around the world. My right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) and my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mhairi Black) have been pressing the Government on this matter since their election in 2015. It is an injustice that some people, who have earned the right to their pension like everyone else, have their payments frozen at the rate they first received for the rest of their life abroad. It is just not right that the pensions of those who live in some countries continue to rise while those of others are frozen. Some 550,000 British pensioners are affected, who represent 4% of all recipients of the state pension and half of all those drawing their pensions abroad.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Neil Gray

Report stage: First Day: House of Commons
Tuesday 16th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kerr]

The hon. and learned Lady, with her normal reserve, says that I do not know. The fact is that there are established processes by which the amendments that will now have to be made to the Bill in the House of Lords will come back here. Those processes were addressed by the Chair of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee.

I do not want my next point to be lost, especially on my hon. Friends on the Government Front Bench—please do not underestimate the depth of disappointment and frustration among Scottish Conservative colleagues in the House. It does not seem appropriate for the Government to blame outside influences for the lack of an amendment. [Interruption.] SNP Members say, “Yes.” But it took until October to get an agreement to the principles by which we would proceed towards the agreement that I, and many of us here, regard as essential. Why did it take so long? Well, the fact is that the nationalist Government in Edinburgh are approaching the matter, as usual, with a wrecking mentality. They want to create a constitutional crisis that precipitates their beloved second independence referendum. The First Minister was at it again this week, talking about another independence referendum. The people of Scotland have spoken on this matter, but the SNP will not listen and its Members claim to be the democrats in this House.

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

The hon. Gentleman talks about trust, and about building towards agreement and compromise. Will he advise us as to how he expects that trust, agreement and compromise to come about? My understanding is that the UK Government have not shared any draft amendments to clause 11 with the Scottish Government.

[Stephen Kerr]

I respect the hon. Gentleman’s point of view and question on this matter. Frankly, I believe that we will proceed on the basis of the negotiations, on which I have asked Ministers to update us. Even Ministers in the hon. Gentleman’s own Government in Edinburgh talk about these matters in the most positive terms; it is not necessary to dress the issues up as a crisis and make them into some drama. We need to proceed to a point at which we can get to an agreement, which will then be the basis for an amended clause 11.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Neil Gray

Committee: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Monday 4th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Neil Gray]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in one of the most important constitutional debates impacting on Scotland since the re-establishment of the Scottish Parliament. The whole basis and foundation of how Scotland is governed is being discussed today. We should not underestimate how important that is; we cannot allow today to be politicked away or the issues to be kicked down the road. We must consider what is before us carefully and in a non-partisan way. Cross-party working has already started in the tabling of amendments, which have been drafted jointly by the Labour Welsh Government and the Scottish National party Government.

Anyone who understands politics in Scotland will appreciate that Labour and the SNP do not often agree on constitutional issues; that is not a flippant point, but a serious one, on which Ministers might reflect. I fully support amendments 72, 164, 165 and 183 to 188, in the names of my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford), my hon. Friend the Member for North East Fife (Stephen Gethins) and the hon. Members for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) and for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty). They all aim to protect the devolved settlements of both Wales and Scotland. Indeed, just about every speaker this evening has expressed great concern about clause 11 as it stands, perhaps with the honourable exception of the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Ross Thomson) —even the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) highlighted that clause 11 impinges on the devolved settlements. That is where my concern lies with the so-called UK frameworks.

I understand that it would be sensible in some areas for there to be agreed principles across these isles—I think that of a future independent Scotland’s relationship with the rest of the UK, so why would I not think it now?—but for intra-national frameworks to be strong, effective and deliverable, they need to be agreed on the basis of mutual partnership, without a dominant and dictatorial director.

[Stephen Kerr]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Neil Gray]

To be fair, the hon. Gentleman has had a good say this evening.

I am not the only one concerned about the direction of travel that the UK Government appear to think we are taking. NFU Scotland has, as I am sure Ministers will be aware, a series of red lines regarding Brexit, many of which are pertinent to today’s debate. I will pick a few out: it wants a replacement for the common agricultural policy that will support the industry in the medium to long term; agriculture must continue to receive the same level and proportion of funding as it does now in the post-2022 landscape; and crucially for tonight, although the Treasury should finance the new policy on a UK-wide funding basis, NFU Scotland says that

“Any approach that adopts a ‘Defra-centric’, one-size-fits-all policy on to the devolved nations would not be acceptable.”

That is why it is crucial that powers in devolved areas are returned to the devolved nations, not held centrally. To do anything other than devolve and then seek to agree a framework agreement in devolved areas would undermine devolution. It would set a dangerous precedent if the UK Government set the terms of devolved policy and then left it to the devolved nations to fill in at the margins. That point was reiterated by Professor Michael Keating when he said the Tory plan would create a “hierarchical model of devolution” where

“the broad principles are set in London and the details filled in across the nations.”

That is not devolution, but executive management. It is anti-devolution, and would rip up the terms and principles of the Scotland Act 1998.

Brexit already poses potentially huge challenges for Scotland economically and constitutionally. Keeping the Bill as it stands in this area would not just be a hard Brexit—it would be a constitutionally regressive Brexit. At this stage, it is worth returning to NFU Scotland’s Brexit priorities: that Scottish and UK agricultural and food products must have frictionless access to existing and new export markets, and that the domestic market must not be exposed to cheaper imports that lack Scotland’s exemplary animal welfare and environmental standards. Continued access to a skilled and competent workforce, within both the farming and food processing sectors, must be secured as a priority. Continued, targeted farm support will be vital, not least through an unknown transition period. This support must be refocused on action-based measures to bring about improved productivity across sectors while delivering environmental benefits and safeguarding and enhancing product standards—the bedrock of a thriving farming, food and drink sector for the post-Brexit era.

I am not closed to the idea that there may be opportunities from Brexit should the UK Government listen and act in a way that is inclusive and bipartisan, but that has not happened to date, no matter what Ministers try to say. The Scottish Government’s compromise proposals have been dismissed and ignored, and that is why we are at today’s crucial juncture. [Interruption.] Conservative Members, some of whom represent farming constituencies, ought to listen to this. NFU Scotland shares the Scottish Government’s desire for continued membership of both the single market and the customs union. Perhaps now the UK Government will realise that they need to allow for tailored arrangements to allow varying national priorities across these isles to be reflected.

How topical it is that we should be discussing aspects of devolution relating to Brexit as we learn, this very day, of what the UK Government appear to be willing to concede in their negotiations with the EU regarding Northern Ireland. In essence, they are conceding that the compromise plan that was presented by the Scottish Government last year for a bespoke deal for Scotland in retaining single market and customs union membership—a plan dismissed as impossible—was on the table earlier for Northern Ireland and has now been discussed. There will be no hard border on the island of Ireland, in summation. It appears that the DUP has put the brakes on that—the irony is there for all to see. What a precedent that sets.

It is time that the UK Government acknowledged that Scotland, as well as Northern Ireland, has the right to expect a bespoke Brexit deal, and that there is nothing precluding a deal that protects Scotland’s interests, as we have been arguing all along. Clearly, for Scotland, that means the ability, for example, to have a different immigration system, and continued membership of the single market and the customs union. Sadly, though, that does not appear to be the path the UK Government are willing to follow, regardless of the consequences either for Scotland or for the future of the United Kingdom. Why not? I fully understand why Northern Ireland needs a bespoke deal. I have no issues with the UK Government pursuing that—in fact, I congratulate them on it—but why do Scotland’s needs matter less? To deny Scotland the same opportunity as Northern Ireland is being afforded would be ridiculous and indefensible. To take back powers from the EU that are clearly devolved competencies and have them sitting here at Westminster for some future divvying-up shows a lack of political or critical thinking, shows a lack of trust or respect towards the devolved nations, and is—quite frankly—lazy. To refuse to look at fresh areas of devolution like employment law to help Scotland deal with Brexit in the most flexible way is equally untrusting, disrespectful, and lazy.

The UK Government must understand the concerns that are being raised. They must not want to rip apart and fundamentally undermine the devolved settlement. Surely they must be willing to engage and accept amendments so as to make Brexit, if not politically palatable, at least reasonable for the devolved nations. I hope that all Members representing Scottish constituencies will support the amendments to be voted on later tonight.

[Stephen Kerr]

I will—[Interruption.] Yes, I am going to speak. I know that SNP Members will be very pleased about that. I will keep my remarks short because a number of people want to speak, but I want to respond to the idea that has been traded pretty commonly in the past couple of speeches about the imposition of a devolution settlement vis-à-vis the frameworks. The Scottish Affairs Committee report quotes the Secretary of State for Scotland, who said:

“A UK framework is not a framework that the UK Government imposes; it is a framework that is agreed across the United Kingdom.”

I believe that that is a definitive expression of the Government’s policy in relation to the nature of frameworks and how they will be achieved.

Every time we have a debate in this House in which devolved powers and Brexit are mentioned, the Scottish nationalists go crazy—[Interruption.] Yes, berserk; that is a good word. A number of contributors, including the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray), have spoken positively about how we can work together to create common ground and lift the issue from the trenches of political warfare in which, too often, the SNP wish to put it.