Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

Stephen Kerr Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)]

I thank the Minister for Security for his speech. It is much appreciated by my constituents that he and his team are working so hard to ensure their safety. This is an incredibly difficult challenge, because the threat keeps changing and it is always difficult for our security forces to identify the threat at each stage of its development. However, they are doing a fantastic job. It is important for the Minister to know that, when talking to our constituents, we all come across people who understand the enormity of the task that our security forces face and who respect the diligence with which they go about their business.

We face an incredibly difficult challenge. I look around the Chamber and see all my colleagues on electronic devices. We were talking yesterday about how electronic devices can spread hate and division. I know it is difficult for my right hon. Friend the Minister to be in everybody’s pocket, if that makes sense. It is difficult to have a police officer in everyone’s pocket, keeping an eye on what they are doing through social media, but these are the challenges that this country faces.

[Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)]

I support the points that my hon. Friend is making. At this time of year, when we are all preparing for the Christmas and new year holidays, this statement is a great reminder to us all that there are, thankfully, men and women in our security services who are diligent and ceaseless in their surveillance and assessment of risk, to the point that this kind of measure can be brought to the House.

[Mr Walker]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. The people who work in our security forces do not get a day, an hour or even a minute off. They are constantly vigilant. I imagine that, even when they are not on duty, they take home their concerns and their enormous sense of responsibility to society. We should congratulate them and respect them for that.

We talked about the responsibility of the tech companies yesterday, we are talking about it today, and will probably go on talking about it tomorrow. They simply cannot say, “It’s nothing to do with us, guv’. We just provide the platform.” That is no longer a sufficient excuse. Politicians around the world—particularly the free western world—are now identifying the fact that, if the tech companies are not willing to address the problem or to challenge those who use their technology for nefarious and dangerous purposes, we as legislators are going to have to do that for them.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his statement and particularly congratulate him on his Arabic pronunciation. If he had my Ulster Scots accent, the challenge would perhaps have been greater, but that is by the way.

I am pleased with and can support the legislation the Minister is bringing forward today and the information that he has laid before us. He mentioned social media, as did other Members, including the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), and we perhaps need a bit more information on that. We all know that there are methods of recruiting terrorists, influencing terrorists, and influencing people who are not terrorists but who could be terrorists, so what resources are available to ensure that the influence that some people can have through social media is spent? I read in the press yesterday that a far-right group had been removed by one of the big social media companies, so if they are able to do that with far-right groups, they should be able to do that with all terrorist groups. I am unsure whether cyber-security comes under the Minister’s remit, but we have to ensure that things are being done the right way. The Minister did not indicate where far-right groups stand, so perhaps he will confirm whether the Government are keeping an eye on their activities and on what they are doing and saying online, of which we should be ever mindful.

I want to reinforce a point made by the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), who is not currently in the Chamber to hear this. I went before the Backbench Business Committee today with the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) and the right hon. Member for Enfield North (Joan Ryan) to ask for a debate on the proscription of Hezbollah, and reference was made to the flags of proscribed organisations that were flown in central London. When that matter was referred to the police, they said that they could not take action due to some disparity over the rule of law. Many of us will be of the opinion that Hezbollah should be on the list and that the flying of its flag anywhere in this country, but particularly in London, should not be allowed, because Hezbollah sows a distinct hatred for Israel, for Israelis and for many others.

The Minister also referred to the Muslim Brotherhood. I am ever mindful that we have a good working relationship with President el-Sisi and the Egyptian Government, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) is the Prime Minister’s trade envoy to Egypt. He does good work, and we are pleased to see him in that position. From what the Minister says, I understand that we work closely alongside the Egyptian Government on matters relating to proscription, but will he reinforce our understanding of the Muslim Brotherhood?

[Stephen Kerr]

I am listening with great interest to the hon. Gentleman’s comments, particularly those relating to the paraphernalia of extremism, which is all too often on public display. Will he add to his comments about social media? Social media platforms seem to wash their hands of full responsibility for the things that are published, but that washing of hands would not be appropriate for any other publication or source of publishing. What would the hon. Gentleman like to see done?

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman. I want to see what has happened to the far-right groups. I want groups that espouse evil words and terrorist acts to be taken off social media. That is the action that we want, and I think the Minister is probably saying that, so we look forward to it.

Returning to the Muslim Brotherhood, it continues to be a difficult group that tends to try to undermine the Egyptian Government and President el-Sisi, and I want to make sure that we are doing everything that we can to ensure that democratic stability in the middle east can continue.

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[Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con)]

I also congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister on his speech and on his work, a lot of which is completely unseen by our constituents.

My constituents in Redditch want to feel safe and secure at all times. We often see the high-profile plots—when those plots go tragically to plan, we all see the evil that is done on our streets—and we sometimes hear of the plots that are foiled, but I imagine most of us in this House will not know of the many, many more plots that are continually foiled and of the work that goes on all the time.

[Stephen Kerr]

My hon. Friend mentions the occasions when the intelligence services have foiled the plotters and their dastardly plans. Will she comment on the importance of co-operation with the intelligence services of our friends and partners in Europe, in North America and across the world, and on the important part that passing intelligence between those agencies plays in making the picture more complete so that action can be taken to prevent loss of life in such incidents?

[Rachel Maclean]

My hon. Friend touches on the critical point that, even as we leave the European Union, we must seek to cement our deep and special partnership on all these matters—and with our friends in the United States, too—because it is clear that these are the relationships that are keeping all our constituents safe, day in, day out.

We cannot imagine what it must be like to work in the intelligence services. I cannot even begin to imagine for one second what it must be like to face such threats and such terror, how frightening it must be and how brave those men and women must be to face it every single day. I add my thanks to those of Members on both sides of the House who have put on record their thanks to those brave men and women who go out of their way every day to keep us safe, and I know my constituents in Redditch thank them, too.

While I am welcoming announcements, it is great to see that additional funding has been announced for the police service today. Significant funding has been pledged to my West Mercia region, which will undoubtedly help our police forces to work in partnership.

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[Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)]

I rise to add a few words of appreciation to the Minister for bringing this measure to the House and to compliment Members on how it has been received. I wish to pay a specific tribute to a number of different groups that are making our country safe. Mention has been made of our security services. It was said that the submariners represented the silent service, but in fact we have a modern-day silent service: those who are carefully and studiously monitoring what is going on, both online and all around us. So I pay tribute to our security services, and I do so on behalf of my constituents, who are the beneficiaries of their service, which, as has been mentioned, is a 365-day-a-year operation, day and night. That professionalism is what is keeping us safe. I join others in paying tribute to the security services—MI5 and MI6 were specifically mentioned, but many other branches of the security services are working together. It is because of their good work and the levels of co-operation between the national agencies not only of this country and our immediate allies but around the world that this order is possible.

I pay tribute to the work that is done locally to prepare for the eventualities that we all dread, fear and hope will never happen. Since becoming the Member of Parliament for Stirling, I have had the opportunity to spend time with the Police Scotland officers in my constituency. I have been hugely impressed with their professionalism and how they carefully and diligently prepare themselves for any eventuality. It is humbling to listen to what they are doing day in, day out in anticipation of an event that we all dread. As it expands the range of services it offers, under excellent national and local leadership, the fire and rescue service in Scotland is also being prepared and trained to respond to the type of incidents that, as Members have reminded us, have taken place in our country this year. Those events have deeply shocked and shaken us.

The third group of people who deserve to be mentioned in the context of the resilience and resolution the country has shown is the British public. The perfect answer to all the events of this year and to the ever-present threat that the Minister mentioned in his speech is that when these events happen, or when it is reported that they have been averted, the British public’s response is to just get up and carry on. That is the full measure of the spirit of the people of these islands and it has been demonstrated and exemplified time and again.

Several agencies are doing excellent work to continue to raise public awareness of the threat of terrorism. As a regular user of the national rail network, I wish to mention a successful awareness-raising campaign mounted by British Transport police called “See It. Say It. Sorted.”, which is intended to activate and engage the British public in their role as the eyes and ears of the security forces on the ground, both locally and nationally.

I welcome the evidence of the intelligence services’ continuous assessment of the environment in which we all live and operate. We should remember the bravery and courage of those who this year have shown again the British people’s resilience, especially in response to the events we sadly witnessed that took place very close to the Chamber, before my time in Parliament.

[Wendy Morton]

My hon. Friend is making a great case and setting out the important contribution that so many people make to keep us safe. Does he also recognise the volunteers who make up local neighbourhood watch groups—I am sure you have some in your constituency, Madam Deputy Speaker—because although they may not be at the forefront of counter-terrorism work, they are still part of the effort to gather intelligence and keep abreast of what is going on?

[Stephen Kerr]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention, because it is a reminder of the point that I wish to make and enforce. When it comes to counter-terrorism, intelligence gathering and the sharing of information, we have an important part to play as individual citizens. My hon. Friend has just described the great tradition of our doing that in this country.

[John Spellar]

The overwhelming evidence from senior counter-terrorism officers is that much of the useful information they gather comes from ordinary beat police officers who are involved in their local communities. Is not it therefore deplorable that the Government have cut funding to the Metropolitan police in particular and are thereby denuding that capability?

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[Stephen Kerr]

I am a Scottish Member of Parliament, but I understand that matters relating to the budgets of the Metropolitan police may be decided by the Mayor of London, just as similar such budgets in Scotland are decided by the Scottish Government. I do not want to introduce any controversy to the things that I am trying to say, because this is not necessarily a moment for any kind of party posturing.

[Kevin Foster]

Does my hon. Friend agree that this is about not just funding, but the powers that the police have and the regulatory system that has been set up? All too often we have seen opposition to some of those powers by the Labour party, even though we might get some welcome consensus on these powers in relation to proscribed groups.

[Stephen Kerr]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. I strongly urge the hon. Member for Stirling (Stephen Kerr) to return to the motion before us.

[Stephen Kerr]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to conclude my remarks if I may by referring back to the comments of the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) when he responded to my intervention about social media. I feel very strongly that the time has come for social media companies, with all their resources, to do something more than they have been doing in this area. For too long, too much has gone on to those platforms without appropriate intervention. I feel very strongly that they are things that we would not permit to be published in mainstream, traditional, and old-fashioned material. Why on earth would we turn a blind eye to it when it is on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube or whatever? There are other social platforms as well. The Minister’s statement has brought home again the importance of dealing with that issue. I know that the Government are dealing with it and that they are stepping up their discussions with these social media companies. I appreciate that much is improving and changing, but, again, I am reminded today that perhaps for too long we have been guilty of that traditional British virtue of being too tolerant about some things for which, really, there must be zero tolerance.