National Health Service

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Frank Dobson

Monday 16th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dorrell]

The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but he said that he would repeal the Health and Social Care Act 2012, the result of which would be to commit the health service to precisely the kind of reorganisation—or re-disorganisation—that he accuses the Government of introducing.

The challenge for the Opposition is to show that they are willing to map a future for the health service, in much more constrained financial circumstances, that allows it to meet the demand for services that is going to be placed on it and to fulfil the aspirations that we all have for improved quality of service. That becomes increasingly difficult in the light of motions such as the one that the right hon. Gentleman has put down for the House to consider. He invites us to regret

“the increasing number of cost-driven reconfigurations of hospital services”

and

“growing private sector involvement in both the commissioning and provision of NHS services”.

Yet when he was Secretary of State and bore my right hon. Friend’s responsibilities for meeting this challenge, he made it clear that service reconfiguration was precisely how the health service needed to meet the challenges that it faced, and that the private sector had an important role—of course, not an exclusive role—in introducing the solutions to the challenge that Sir David Nicholson articulated in May 2009. The same approach was taken in the Labour party’s manifesto for the 2010 general election.

The challenge that the right hon. Gentleman has to address if he is to discharge his responsibilities as shadow Health Secretary is to move on from party political ding-dongs, of which we have had too many. [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) is commenting from a sedentary position. I have always been aware that he, at least, does not agree with the commissioner-provider split that the shadow Health Secretary operated as Secretary of State and has always said that he is in favour of considering.

[Frank Dobson]

Would the right hon. Gentleman care to confirm for the House that in the last year when he was Secretary of State, NHS hospitals carried out 5.7 million operations and at the end of the Labour Government’s period in office it was carrying out 9.7 million operations?

[Mr Dorrell]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for drawing attention to the fact that throughout the history of the health service, under Governments of all political complexions, there has been a growth in the level of services, and improvement in the quality of services, provided to patients. It happened under the Tory Government of whom I was a member and under the Government of whom he was a member. Of course, that is delivered not by the politicians but by the doctors and nurses who work in the health service.

The challenge faced by the current generation of policy makers, including the shadow Health Secretary, is how to meet the rising demands and the requirement for improved quality in much more constrained financial circumstances than I or he faced as Secretaries of State. He signally failed to meet that challenge today.

Health and Social Care (Re-committed) Bill

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Frank Dobson

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dorrell]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, who answers the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) with very much more authority than is at my disposal.

I want to make one final point and it is a direct response to the hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams). Of all the misrepresentations about the intentions of this Bill that we have listened to since the White Paper was published over a year ago, the most persistent is that this is somehow a Bill—a ramp—for the privatisation of the health service.

I was first a Health Minister more than 21 years ago. Throughout that period I have listened to speeches directed first at my right hon. and learned Friend the current Justice Secretary, when he was Health Secretary, and subsequently at all his Labour and Tory successors, including me, although probably excluding the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson). All their legislative and other proposals to introduce more flexible and patient and standards-oriented structures in the health service were opposed by somebody or other on the grounds that they were going to privatise the health service. If that was the purpose of those policy initiatives, the one thing that they all have in common is that they have been singularly unsuccessful. If it is the policy purpose of this Bill to privatise the health service—which I do not for one moment believe it is—it will, I am sure, be as unsuccessful as all the other measures that went before it.

[Frank Dobson]

I begin with a reminder. I was one of those Labour people who voted against the establishment of foundation trusts and the setting up of Monitor. In doing so, I was supported by those on the Conservative Front Bench, so I do not think that the Conservatives should claim any consistency in these matters.

My second point is that although one would never dream it was true from listening to Ministers or their supporters, it is quite clear that the national health service is now working very well and is more popular than ever; and yet we are told that it needs a radical overhaul. However, the popularity of the national health service at the time of the last general election probably explains why both the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats promised that there would be no top-down reorganisation of it. However, if neither the Bill as originally produced nor the post-pausal Bill that we have now is top-down change, God knows how one would define it.

The whole purpose of this Bill is to shift us away from the basic collaborative approach to the provision of health care in this country and to substitute a large amount of competition, gradually involving more and more of the private sector and, I believe, privatisation. In order to put things in perspective, it is worth pointing out that when the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), ceased to be the Secretary of State for Health, the national health service was performing 5.7 million operations a year in its hospitals. When Labour left office, it was performing 9.7 million operations a year, an increase of 58%. That was the result of improved working practices developed by—