M4 Upgrading: South Wales

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 14th November 2018 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Crabb]

Nothing would please me more than seeing the hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) formally open a Conservative party conference in south Wales. I have no particular influence over where Conservative party events are held, but the Minister is listening with wide open ears, and I am sure he will feed those views through to the party chairman.

When it comes to major events, however, everyone knows that our Achilles heel is our transport problems. Of course we welcome the UK Government’s decision to scrap the tolls on the Prince of Wales bridge, which is estimated to save regular commuters up to £1,400 a year. We want that to attract new investment, jobs and tourism to Wales. The Welsh Government’s report suggests that our action on that will boost the Welsh economy by £100 million. However, as the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) said, modelling predicts an increase of up to 20% in traffic as a result of the tolls being removed. The congestion issues around the Prince of Wales bridge and Newport are already severe, and the increased traffic will create further problems, without there being additional infrastructure in place. As the Freight Transport Association says,

“This places greater emphasis on ensuring that the M4 upgrade is fit for purpose.”

The UK Government have shown that they are committed to boosting the Welsh economy, helping commuters and businesses, and increasing investment. We need the Welsh Government and the Assembly to step up and deliver the M4 upgrade.

As many hon. Members will be aware, a solution has been on the table for more than 20 years. In March 1989, the then Secretary of State for Wales commissioned the south Wales area traffic survey of possible solutions. The subsequent 1990 report identified the need for substantial improvement to the M4. As a consequence, a proposal for a relief road around Newport, a new dual three-lane motorway to the south of Newport, which was later known as the new M4 project, was included in the Welsh trunk road forward programme in 1991. An M4 relief road preferred route was published in 1995 and amended in 1997.

There were further iterations of the relief road plan over the years once responsibility for the road was devolved to the Welsh Assembly, but essentially the plan has followed the original work done in the mid and late ’90s. A draft Welsh Government plan was published in September 2013 and was the subject of public consultation from September to December that year.

Five years on, we are still waiting for a decision by the Welsh Government. That brings us to the question of financial powers and the limits on Welsh Government capital borrowing, which was referenced in the Budget. I am aware of the argument that occurred immediately after the Budget between Welsh Ministers and UK Ministers about whether an extension of borrowing powers should be linked to the delivery of the M4 relief road. I have no interest in getting involved in that, other than to note that the use of the M4 upgrade as a justification for securing new powers from Westminster has been a long-running feature of the devolution debate.

Indeed, upgrading the M4 may have been used as an argument in the original referendum campaign for why an Assembly was needed in the first place. It was certainly used as an argument in the debate in 2013 about full law-making and financial powers that led to the Silk Commission, in which the First Minister said:

“We literally could not do things. We could not improve the M4 without borrowing powers—it will not happen.”

The 2013 deal between the Welsh Government and the UK Government was to give the Welsh Government early access to those original borrowing powers precisely so that the M4 project could get going.

The project is now being used as an argument for securing even more borrowing powers. I can understand the need to extend the capital borrowing limits, given that the projected costs of the M4 upgrade are now higher, but part of me is starting to question whether some are using the project as a fig leaf to enable agreement on more powers and debt for the Welsh Government, without there being any serious intention of getting the M4 fixed. Given the passage of time, I can understand the considerable scepticism in some circles about the project. I hear the phrase, “It will never be built”, quite a lot around Cardiff.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is making an important speech about the importance of the M4 to the south Wales economy, and his point about the Welsh Government is well taken. Is the A55 in north Wales not also an example of an issue on which promises have been made consistently? It has been promised for years that two roundabouts in my constituency, which are on a recognised European expressway, will be dealt with, but we are still waiting. Are the same excuses not being used in north Wales as in south Wales?

[Stephen Crabb]

I agree with my hon. Friend. The A55 project is overdue, as is the M4 project, and I will go on to make the same point about the dualling of the A40 in my constituency. There is a shopping list of projects that need to happen for the Welsh economy’s benefit.

I recognise that big infrastructure projects are challenging, costly and controversial, that they require difficult trade-offs with other priorities, and that important environmental and conservation issues have to be taken into account, but they are still essential for improving the productivity and economic wellbeing of our nation. Two things are vital for any nation that wants to throw off the shackles of poverty: investment in skills and investment in high-quality infrastructure to boost economic performance.

I am fed up of seeing Wales languishing towards the bottom of all UK economic league tables, and of the fact that parts of Wales are known for being poorer today than parts of the former Communist bloc. That does not have to be our future, but changing it requires making choices and taking action. Spraying grants around to attract trophy projects to Wales, or to prop up certain companies that enjoy particularly good insider relations with the Welsh Government, does not amount to an economic strategy, and is no substitute for choosing to take difficult decisions about investing in long-term infrastructure assets.

As we all know, the truth is that the M4 relief road should have been built by now and we should not be here today talking about this. It is almost 30 years since the late Peter Walker, then Conservative Secretary of State for Wales, commissioned that original south Wales area traffic survey to look at solutions for the M4. It is a full quarter of a century since a public consultation was launched on possible solutions. It is 23 years since another Secretary of State for Wales, William Hague, announced his preferred route. It is five years since former Prime Minister David Cameron and former Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg went to Cardiff to announce new financial powers for the Welsh Government to enable the M4 upgrade to happen. Everyone knows that it should have been done by now, and that we should look at other key projects, such as the A55 upgrade, mentioned a few moments ago, and the dualling of the A40 between St Clears and Fishguard. Those are important infrastructure projects too, but they are stuck in the queue because of the lack of progress on the M4.

When I was an Under-Secretary of State at the Wales Office—I think it was in 2013—I was asked about the M4 upgrade. William Hague, who was Foreign Secretary at the time, was sat next to me on the Front Bench. After I had taken the question, he leant across to me and said, “Are we still talking about that? It was an issue when I was Secretary of State.” It would be a huge shame if in 20 years, when Carwyn Jones, the First Minister, is retired and in the House of Lords, a question was asked about the relief road around Newport, and Lord Jones of Bridgend leant across to whoever he was sat next to and said, “Are we still talking about that? I thought it had been dealt with during my time as First Minister.” It would be such a shame if nothing was done and people were still talking about the need for an urgent solution in 20 years.

My friendly message to colleagues of all parties in the Assembly is that we recognise that this is their decision to take, but I urge them to be bold and make a decision that is right for future generations, so we are not still talking about this decades from now. If we are not going to get the relief road built, and if the outcome of the current process is that the collective decision of the Welsh Government and Assembly Members of all parties is that it is too difficult and too controversial, and that they are going to kick the decision even further down the road, they need to be honest about that and about the consequences of that decision. Someone will probably have to walk up to the Prince of Wales bridge and plant a sign that says, “Wales is closed to future new business for the time being.”

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 26th April 2017 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

14. Although, over the past seven years, we have given new powers and new money to the Welsh Labour Government precisely so that they can get on and improve transport in Wales, we have seen near zero progress on big projects such as improving the M4 around Newport. Who does my hon. Friend think is responsible for holding back Wales, and what should voters do about it on 8 June?

[Guto Bebb]

My right hon. Friend makes a very important point. The fiscal framework that has been agreed between the UK and Welsh Governments has been described as a game-changer by Gerry Holtham. It means that, unlike during the 13 years when Labour was in government in this place, Wales is no longer underfunded. The people of Wales should look at the M4 and the A55, and point the finger of blame at the Labour Government in Cardiff.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 25th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

I am sure that the hon. Lady will join me in highlighting the success of the Swansea campus development as an example of European Investment Bank investment in a Welsh context. I am sure that she will also join me in paying tribute to the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer for securing and guaranteeing EU funding up to the point of departure from the European Union. The key point that she must be aware of is that thus far, this Government have delivered a degree of protection for EU funding in Wales, and in due course further announcements will be made about further funding support in a Welsh context.

[Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

2. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of Wales’s international business links since the UK’s decision to leave the EU.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

1. What assessment he has made of trends in labour market statistics in Wales since 2010.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)]

I would like to take this opportunity, in the last Welsh Question Time before the general election, to pay tribute to the Welsh Members who have announced their intention to stand down. All eight right hon. and hon. Members have served their constituencies with distinction and played a vital role in making the case for Wales, as I know they will continue to do outside this House. We wish them all the very best.

Across the UK there have never been more people in work. In Wales there are 41,000 more people in work since the election, but we recognise that the job is not yet done, which is why we must stick to our long-term economic plan, which is starting to bear fruit for Wales.

[Guto Bebb]

May I associate myself with my right hon. Friend’s comments on the departing Members?

In my constituency unemployment has fallen by 27% year on year, and it has fallen by over 40% since the height of the recession, a situation that is replicated across Wales. Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating the small businesses the length and breadth of Wales that have contributed to the jobs-based recovery, and will he assure me that the policies put in place by this Government will continue if he remains in post after 7 May?

[Stephen Crabb]

I absolutely agree that it is businesses across Wales, and particularly in north Wales, that are leading the economic recovery, creating the jobs that are making such a difference to the lives of families up and down Wales. What puts that at greatest risk is the prospect of a Labour Government with no vision or plan for the Welsh economy.

Government Policies (Wales)

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 26th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

If the hon. Lady sends a copy of that correspondence to my office, I promise we will respond quicker than that.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Instead of the doom and gloom being portrayed by Labour, will my right hon. Friend join me in celebrating the 42% fall in the unemployment rate in my constituency since the coalition came to power?

[Stephen Crabb]

Absolutely, I welcome the fall in unemployment in my hon. Friend’s constituency. During the shadow Secretary of State’s speech, I was looking through Labour Members’ constituencies. Many of them saw increases of 60%, 70% and 80% in unemployment under the last Labour Government, whereas unemployment in those constituencies is now falling.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Crabb]

I will take the opportunity to have exactly those conversations, and I expect that all those people will tell me resoundingly just how important the right hon. Gentleman’s voice is in representing their interests.

[Guto Bebb]

The Opposition are very keen to express their concern that our policy on Europe is dangerous for business investment, but does my right hon. Friend agree that that is contradicted by the investment that was made in north Wales last week?

[Stephen Crabb]

Exactly. There is a faint whiff of scaremongering coming from Labour on those issues.

I want the Government to bang the drum for investment into Wales, whether it be the UK Government or the Welsh Government, and I am delighted to be able to say that inward investment into Wales is on the rise. In the past year in Wales alone, 79 projects have got under way—the highest number for almost 25 years. The 13 years of the last Labour Government did nothing for boosting inward investment in Wales, but I have seen for myself what this Government’s policies have done for inward investment—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) says that that is all down to the Welsh Government, but almost all the inward investment projects that we secured for Wales last year involved the active support of UK Trade & Investment and the UK Government.

Just last month I visited Hydro, a company that specialises in water purification using electro-based technology. While I was there, Hydro announced a new £20 million joint venture deal in the United Arab Emirates to assist that country to achieve more effective water treatment solutions. I look forward to hearing the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) congratulating that company and championing the business interests in her constituency when she speaks later in the debate.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 9th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

6. What assessment he has made of the progress of the broadband roll-out programme and the effects of that programme on the tourism industry in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)]

The Superfast Cymru programme, which is jointly funded by the UK and Welsh Governments, is on track to deliver superfast speeds to 96% of premises by spring 2016, and more than 135,000 premises in Wales have already been connected. The Wales Office continues to be in close contact with BT, Ofcom and Broadband Delivery UK as the roll-out continues.

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the Minister for his response. Some £120 million of public money has been put into the roll-out of broadband in Wales, yet my constituency of Aberconwy has had no roll-out as yet. That is having a huge effect on businesses, not least in the tourism sector. Does the Minister agree that we need more accountability in the way that the spending of public money happens in the Welsh Government?

[Stephen Crabb]

As I said, we are in close discussions with the Welsh Government, Ofcom, and Broadband Delivery UK about how public money is being spent on the roll-out in Wales. We are aware of concerns that my hon. Friend and colleagues have raised in recent months, and we communicate those to the Welsh Government and take them very seriously.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 12th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

7. What assessment he has made of the effects on Wales of the Government’s policy on superfast broadband roll-out.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)]

As a result of the £57 million investment by this coalition Government in Westminster, the roll-out of superfast broadband in Wales will transform our broadband network. Last month, it was confirmed that 100,000 Welsh homes and businesses can now get access to superfast broadband.

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the Minister for his response. I welcome the fact that the roll-out is doing well in Wales. Will he respond to the fact that Llandudno and Llandudno junction, which are key commercial centres in north Wales, are not even scheduled for roll-out as yet? Is that another example of the Welsh Labour Government prioritising south Wales over north Wales?

[Stephen Crabb]

All Welsh Members of Parliament want their constituencies to be at the front of the queue for superfast broadband. The roll-out implementation plans are agreed between BT Cymru, the Welsh Government and Broadband Delivery UK. If my hon. Friend has specific concerns about that process, will he please raise them with me, and I will ensure that they get an airing?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 8th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

My hon. Friend is exactly right. The Government are taking those practical steps to help people on the lowest incomes in particular. We are determined that this should be a recovery for all sections of society in Wales.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

The autumn statement contained very welcome measures to reduce the burden of business rates on small businesses in England. What efforts will the Minister make to ensure that the Welsh Government follow suit, to support small businesses in Wales?

[Stephen Crabb]

In the autumn statement, we made resources available to the Welsh Government to take exactly the same action as the Government in Westminster have taken to help small businesses with their business rates. I was pleased that the Welsh Minister announced yesterday that they would take forward the cap on business rates in Wales. We have yet to hear whether they will deliver the £1,000 discount for small businesses that we are delivering.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

The right hon. Gentleman is a member of a party about which one of his colleagues said it was “intensely relaxed” about people becoming filthy rich. It was intensely relaxed about many families on low incomes being pushed into greater household debt. We do not take that approach; we are trying to bring down household debt.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that the Labour party claims to be concerned about the cost of living in Wales, yet on the one cost it can control, the council tax, it has failed miserably to support Welsh constituents?

[Stephen Crabb]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If Opposition Members were genuinely concerned about tackling the cost of living in Wales they would be hammering on the door of their Labour colleagues in the Welsh Government in Cardiff and demanding that they freeze council tax bills, as we have for households in England.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 9th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is another Labour Member who does not welcome the fact that unemployment has fallen in his constituency since the general election. We recognise that wage levels are not where we want them to be, but most of the deterioration in wage levels happened in the last three years of the previous Labour Government. We are helping people in Wales on low incomes by taking 130,000 people out of income tax altogether, and by freezing fuel duty. Because we have taken the responsible decision to cut the deficit, we are able to keep interest rates low, which means that low earners in his constituency, and mine, can hang on to their homes.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

12. Does the Minister agree that the Labour party should be celebrating the fact that unemployment in a constituency such as mine is lower now than it was in 2010, and that we have 69,000 new private sector jobs in Wales, compared with 2010? The Labour party should celebrate success, not play down the economy of Wales.

[Stephen Crabb]

I totally agree with my hon. Friend—Labour Members should celebrate the progress we are making in Wales. There is a lot more work to be done, but unemployment is lower. Rather than criticising the private sector in Wales, which they do time and time again, they should be championing business growth in Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 15th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

There is a mixture of housing stock throughout Wales. Decisions will be taken on a localised basis, which is why we have more than doubled the amount of discretionary housing payment to more than £6 million to help meet the issue that the right hon. Gentleman raises.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

My hon. Friend has just mentioned the £6 million increase in discretionary housing payments in Wales. In Conwy in my constituency, the increase to £300,000 doubles the amount available to the local authority. Is it not the case that many of the individual cases mentioned by Opposition parties will be dealt with at a local level as a result of this fantastic increase?

[Stephen Crabb]

We have more than doubled the amount available to local authorities for discretionary housing payment. In the local authorities of Wrexham and Caerphilly, it has been increased by more than 300%. We are determined to protect the most vulnerable people at a time when we have to restore budget discipline to housing benefit expenditure.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 27th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right; Wales has traditionally been a healthy recruiting ground for excellent soldiers for our armed forces, and that will continue to be the case under the new partnership between Capita and the Army on recruitment. There is a long-term trend of young people using the internet to access careers advice, and that is exactly the same with defence careers. However, this is not just about an online service, but about mobile teams getting out into the communities to enable face-to-face contact between men and women in uniform and young people who show an interest in a career in the armed forces.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

9. What discussions he has had with his ministerial colleagues and others on building a new prison in north Wales; and what progress has been made.

Food Banks (Wales)

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Tuesday 12th February 2013 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Crabb]

Thank you, Mrs Riordan. In preparation for this afternoon’s debate, I did a bit of research.

[Guto Bebb]

Will the Minister give way?

[Stephen Crabb]

I will, quickly.

[Guto Bebb]

Does the Minister agree that the whole point of the debate is to cast aspersions on our motives as Conservative Members?

[Stephen Crabb]

That is exactly what it is about. I did some research before the debate this afternoon and looked at the parliamentary record, because I wanted to know what kinds of questions and issues were being raised on food banks by Members of different parties—not only from Wales, but from right across the UK. It might not surprise my hon. Friends to know that I could not find a single reference by a Labour Member of Parliament, before 2010, to food banks.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 16th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

14. What assessment he has made of the Government’s income tax policy so far as it relates to Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)]

In 2013, the increase in the personal allowance for income tax will be the largest ever cash increase and shows that this Government are committed to creating a fair tax system that rewards hard work.

[Stephen Crabb]

It is indeed great news in Llanbedr Pont Steffan and elsewhere in Wales that, as a result of the decisions taken by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor in the autumn statement, an additional 13,000 people will be lifted out of tax altogether, with a total benefit to people of £1.1 million.

[Guto Bebb]

The Silk commission proposals will provide the Welsh Government with the power to vary individual tax bands. Does the Secretary of State share my concern that the Welsh Labour Government might be tempted further to target the 6% of Welsh taxpayers who pay the higher rate of income tax and contribute 33% of all taxes raised in Wales?

[Stephen Crabb]

The Government are considering the recommendations of the Silk report and will be reporting on them very shortly. That is the appropriate time to take them forward.

Welsh Language (Non-devolved Departments)

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Crabb]

That is an excellent point. It is exactly the kind of point worth making when we begin the review, hopefully after the arrangements are in place for the secondee from the Welsh Language Commissioner’s office.

My hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy said that he wanted positive and strong co-operation. I absolutely assure him that that is what we intend. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has a close dialogue with the Welsh Language Commissioner on matters relating to the Welsh language in general and Government services delivered in the Welsh language in particular. Indeed, the Wales Office has always maintained a good working relationship with the commissioner and her predecessor body, the Welsh Language Board. That close relationship continues as we plan the review. We can only set about the task once we know for sure what the Welsh language standards will be, but we hope to be in a position to do so as soon as the final standards are confirmed.

In conclusion, I assure hon. Members from all parties that the Government are fully committed to the Welsh language, that the Wales Office is taking the lead in ensuring adequate Welsh language provision in Government services in non-devolved areas where needed and that we will consider carefully UK Departments’ capacity to meet the new Welsh language standards.

[Guto Bebb]

I am pleased with the response that I have heard. My concerns were not that the Wales Office was not positive about the language; they had more to do with the fact that some of the provisions of the Welsh Language Act 1993 might have been lost as a result of the change to the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011. Before the Minister finishes his response, will he comment on the possibility of scrutiny by the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs?

[Stephen Crabb]

It is the duty of all Select Committees to scrutinise and monitor the activities of relevant Departments, and the Welsh Affairs Committee has the role of monitoring everything that we do in the Wales Office. I do not think that it is appropriate for me or my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to recommend or suggest to the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee subjects that the Committee should investigate; that is entirely a matter for the Committee itself. However, we would naturally expect and hope that some of that scrutiny work will be done by the Committee.

My hon. Friend said that he wanted the Wales Office to lead the charge. I leave him and other hon. Members here with the assurance that we will indeed lead the charge in defending and promoting the Welsh language across non-devolved departmental areas.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Crabb and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 17th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

The taxpayer is absolutely entitled to expect value for money, and I hope that my hon. Friend will appreciate the fruits of our welfare reforms coming through in Wales, as borne out by today’s labour market statistics.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

10. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on capital investment in rail infrastructure in Wales; and if he will make a statement.