Scrap Metal Dealers Bill

John Bercow Excerpts

Friday 9th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment (a) to Government new clause 2, in subsection (3), after ‘record’, insert ‘and verify’.

New clause 4—Sale of scrap metal—

‘(1) No person shall sell or attempt to sell scrap metal other than to a scrap metal dealer licensed under the provisions of this Act.

(2) No person aged under 21 shall sell or attempt to sell scrap metal.

(3) A person who sells or attempts to sell scrap metal in breach of subsection 1 or 2 above is guilty of an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.’.

New clause 6—Metal marked with smart water—

‘(1) A scrap metal dealer must not purchase scrap metal from a person without first checking that the metal has not been marked with smart water.

(2) If a scrap metal dealer purchases scrap metal in breach of subsection (1) he shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.’.

Amendment 66, page 5, line 39, in clause 10, leave out ‘3’ and insert ‘1’.

Amendment 67, page 6, line 3, leave out ‘3’ and insert ‘1’.

Amendment 98, page 6, line 10, in clause 11, leave out subsection (2).

Amendment 71, page 6, line 25, leave out ‘5’ and insert ‘1’.

Amendment 72, page 6, line 25, leave out ‘5’ and insert ‘3’.

Government amendment 18, page 6, line 26, in clause 12, divide Clause 12 into two clauses, the first [Records of dealings: receipt of metal] to consist of subsections (1) to (5) and the second [Records: supplementary] to consist of subsections (6) to (11).

Government amendment 19, page 6, line 30, leave out ‘type and weight’ and insert

‘type (or types if mixed), form, condition, weight and any marks identifying previous owners or other distinguishing features’.

Amendment 87, page 6, line 38, at end insert—

‘(f) whether the metal has been tested for smart water and the result of that test’.

Government amendment 20, page 6, line 42, leave out subsections (4) and (5) and insert—

‘(4) If the dealer pays for the metal by cheque, the dealer must keep a copy of the cheque.

(5) If the dealer pays for the metal by electronic transfer—

(a) the dealer must keep the receipt identifying the transfer, or

(b) if no receipt identifying the transfer was obtained, the dealer must record particulars identifying the transfer.’.

Amendment 73, page 7, line 7, leave out subsection (6).

Government amendment 21, page 7, line 7, after ‘subsections (2) and (5)’, insert

‘and section [Records of dealings: disposal of metal](3) and (4)’.

Government amendment 22, page 7, line 13, after ‘subsections (2) to (5)’, insert

‘and section [Records of dealings: disposal of metal](3) and (4)’.

Amendment 74, page 7, line 13, leave out ‘3 years’ and insert ‘1 year’.

Government amendment 23, page 7, line 14, at end insert

‘or (as the case may be) disposed of.’.

Government amendment 24, page 7, line 15, after ‘under’, insert

‘section [Records of dealings: receipt of metal], section [Records of dealings: disposal of metal] or’.

Government amendment 25, page 7, line 18, after ‘at’, insert

‘or (as the case may be) despatched from’.

Amendment 76, page 7, line 27, leave out ‘5’ and insert ‘1’.

Amendment 77, page 7, line 27, leave out ‘5’ and insert ‘3’.

Government amendment 26, page 8, line 24, clause 13, leave out ‘section 12’ and insert

‘section [Records of dealings: receipt of metal] or [Records of dealings: disposal of metal]’.

Amendment 101, page 10, line 10, in clause 18, leave out from ‘(a)’ to ‘whether’ in line 11 and insert

‘collects, purchases or sells discarded metal suitable for reprocessing for reward’.

Amendment 132, page 10, line 13, leave out paragraph (b).

Amendment 133, page 10, line 19, leave out subsection (4).

Amendment 30, page 10, line 19, leave out ‘carries on business’ and insert ‘engages in activity’.

Amendment 134, page 10, line 32, leave out ‘includes and insert ‘is’.

Amendment 102, page 10, line 33, leave out ‘old’ and insert ‘used’.

Amendment 135, page 10, line 33, after ‘old’, insert ‘used’.

Amendment 103, page 10, line 36, at end insert—

‘(c) any new product article or assembly which is made from or contains metal and is not being used for the purpose for which it was intended when originally purchased.’.

Amendment 136, page 10, line 36, at end insert—

‘(c) items made from or containing metal which are of sentimental or heritage value,

(d) war memorials that are made from or contain metal,

(e) property made from or containing metal belonging to any place of worship, and

(f) property made from or containing metal belonging to or used for the purposes of rail travel.’.

Amendment 104, page 10, line 38, leave out paragraph (a).

Amendment 138, page 10, line 39, at end insert—

‘(c) platinum, iridium, osmium, palladium and ruthenium, and’

Amendment 105, page 10, line 42, leave out subsection (8).

[Mr Browne]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the excellent timing with which you brought our debate on the previous group of amendments to a conclusion and for allowing me to introduce this second group of amendments.

This group relates to the trading in scrap metal. Within this grouping, the Government wish to create one new clause and make seven amendments to the Bill. Unfortunately, like the previous grouping, there are a significant number of other amendments which we fear may dilute the effectiveness of the Bill, although hon. Members are entirely within their rights to table them. It is therefore not our intention to accept those amendments. I do not propose to address each of them separately, though I have sought, and will continue to do so, to clarify points where that may help the House.

On the Government amendments, clause 12 currently requires that scrap metal dealers record all metal that is received in the course of their business, and includes a criminal offence of failure to fulfil the requirement of the clause. Following discussion with the police, they have suggested continuing the requirement in the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 to record both the metal being received in the course of their business and the metal being dispatched. We have considered that suggestion and believe that there are merits to justify its inclusion, allowing law enforcement officers and local authorities to trace metals through the scrap metal sector.

New clause 2 outlines that requirement, defining the meaning of disposed of metal and stipulating information that needs to be recorded by scrap metal dealers, both in respect of mobile collectors and those who hold a site licence. As I have said, although the amendment creates a new requirement in the Bill on the scrap metal dealer, recording metals that are dispatched is not a new burden on the industry—an important point—as that provision already exists in the 1964 Act, which currently applies. It should be noted that the proposed recording requirement for collectors appears slightly less onerous than that for site licence holders.

We considered carefully what information should be recorded to bring value to the records that are kept. Collectors should not process metals; they collect metals and then sell them to scrap metal dealers who operate a site to process them. Therefore, the metal that a collector receives and records must be the metal that they dispatch. It is for that reason that the regulations differ slightly for them and are slightly less onerous. We did not therefore consider it necessary to require collectors to double-record the metal; rather we are simply requiring them to record to whom the metal was sold and when.

I do not believe that the amendment to new clause 2 is necessary. All records that a scrap metal dealer is required to retain as part of this new scrap metal regime should be accurate. Amendment (a) to new clause 2 requires that information relating to disposed of metals be verified, which, aside from the person’s name and address, is an almost impossible task and one that makes the amendment unworkable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Mr Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 114, in clause 15, page 9, line 8, leave out ‘5 years’ and insert ‘1 year’.

Amendment 115, page 9, line 8, leave out ‘5 years’ and insert ‘2 years’.

Amendment 116, page 9, line 8, leave out ‘5 years’ and insert ‘3 years’.

Amendment 117, page 9, line 8, leave out ‘5 years’ and insert ‘4 years’.

Amendment 118, page 9, line 11, at end insert—

‘(c) publish the crime figures associated with scrap metal theft for the whole of the period of the review.’.

Amendment 119, page 9, line 11, at end insert—

‘(d) publish the crime figures associated with metal theft generally for the whole of the period of the review.’.

Amendment 120, page 9, line 11, at end insert—

‘(e) publish comparative figures for 1(c) and 1(d) for the preceding equivalent period to the review to show trends in metal crime.’.

Amendment 121, page 9, line 11, at end insert—

‘(f) publish figures showing the number of convictions for each new offence created in the Bill.’.

Amendment 122, page 9, line 11, at end insert—

‘(g) publish a study comparing the use of all legislation in existence prior to the introduction of this Act to this Act and the role that has played in tackling metal theft.’.

Amendment 123, page 9, line 11, at end insert—

‘(h) publish an assessment of the effect that prohibiting scrap metal dealers from using cash has had on business.’.

Amendment 124, page 9, line 11, at end insert—

‘(i) publish a study of the cost to all scrap metal businesses over the period of the review of the new legislation.’.

Amendment 126, page 9, line 11, at end insert—

‘(k) publish a comparison of convictions under the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 compared to the convictions for the same offences under this Act for a period of the same length as the term of the review.’.

Amendment 127, page 9, line 11, at end insert—

‘(l) assess the prevalence of the export of stolen scrap metal to Scotland in the whole of the period of the review.’.

Amendment 128, page 9, line 11, at end insert—

‘(m) assess the prevalence of the export of stolen scrap metal to Europe in the whole of the period of the review.’.

Amendment 129, page 9, line 11, at end insert—

‘(n) assess the prevalence of the export of stolen scrap metal through UK ports to other countries exlcuding Scotland and Europe in the whole of the period of the review.’.

Amendment 99, in clause 17, page 9, line 37, leave out subsection (2).

Amendment 100, page 9, line 40, leave out ‘under section 11(2) or 18(8)’ and insert

‘or regulations under this Act’.

Amendment 131, page 10, line 1, leave out subsection (4).

Amendment 85, in clause 20, page 11, line 41, leave out from ‘Act’ to end of line 42 and insert

‘shall come into force two months after Royal Assent’.

Amendment 86, page 12, line 1, leave out subsection (3).

[Philip Davies]

I hope to strike more oil with this group of amendments than I have managed thus far. I am rather disappointed that the Minister’s approach so far has been, “This is my script. I won’t listen to the debate, I will just stick to my script come what may.” My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) and I will have another go at persuading him that the Bill could be improved.