House of Lords Reform Bill

John Bercow Excerpts

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Before I call the first Back-Bench speaker, may I, for the benefit of the House, now respond substantively to the point of order raised with me earlier by the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone)? Standing Order No. 83A provides that, where notice is given of a programme motion, Standing Order No. 63 shall not apply. That means that, if the Bill is read a Second time this evening, it will not be possible for Ministers or others to move to commit the Bill, whether to Committee of the whole House or elsewhere. The Bill will remain uncommitted for the time being. I hope that that information is helpful to the House.

The six-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches now applies.

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[Gareth Johnson]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. Very few Members of this House think that the House of Lords is perfect in every way, but we do not want radical overhauls and an elected House of Lords, as suggested by this fundamentally flawed Bill.

Governments are currently created by single elections—general elections—and the reviewing Chamber acts as a check and balance without—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There are a lot of very noisy conversations taking place in the Chamber. These are serious matters, and I think we owe the hon. Gentleman whom I have called first the courtesy of a fair and decent hearing.

[Gareth Johnson]

The reviewing Chamber acts as a check and balance without the necessity of playing to the gallery. The contradictory nature of the two Houses of Parliament ensures that genuine revision of legislation takes place, and it is that essential difference between the two Houses that the Bill seeks to eradicate.

I oppose the principle of an elected second Chamber, but the details of the Bill are also wrong. Fifteen-year terms fly in the face of democracy. Even Robert Mugabe has not tried a term of office for that length of time. Fifteen years without any possibility of facing the electorate gives a mandate to that senator without any kind of accountability. The wealth of expertise that exists in the Lords will go, to be replaced by people who really wanted to be Members of this House.

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[Stephen Lloyd]

I can answer that by moving on to my observations about the contributions made yesterday by some of my Opposition colleagues, which I also found surreal. Let me go through them. [Interruption.] Talking of coalition, whatever the challenges of two parties working together as we are in this coalition, which I actively support because of the state of the economy, it is interesting to look at the coalition between Blair and Brown in your 13 years, which was internecine every week. I take no lessons on that from Opposition Members.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The House is lapsing into improper use of language. I do not know why the hon. Gentleman is referring to my 13 years. Debate goes through the Chair. I think he is referring to Opposition Members, but he should avoid using the word “you” in this context.

[Stephen Lloyd]

Thank you, Mr Speaker; I stand corrected and apologise.

Another point I discovered yesterday was that when it comes to debating the House of Lords, reactionary views are not restricted to my right-wing colleagues, as I heard some of them coming from Opposition Members. Even though the Labour party has supported House of Lords reform for many years and some Labour Members spoke with great passion, insight and conviction, I was struck by the unadulterated hatred towards the Lib Dems that was expressed in a number of speeches—[Hon. Members: “Aah.”]—for the temerity to try to bring in an elected second Chamber at last. It was quite incredible.

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[Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman has accused the Deputy Prime Minister of being disingenuous, but he has also cited an instance in which, he says, he persuaded members of his Front Bench to change their minds and support a referendum. Is he telling our Front Benchers that they should do the same, but should then change their minds again and break their promise?

[Mr Speaker]

Order. May I say to the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), who is immensely versatile in his use of legitimate parliamentary language, that he might wish to reconsider his use of the word “disingenuous”? He has a very versatile vocabulary, and I feel sure that he can deploy another word.

[Mr Straw]

I am happy to do so, Mr Speaker. I will substitute the word “unconvincing”.

I hope that the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) will concede that I was persuaded by the arguments advanced in this place in favour of referendums. I am now urging the Deputy Prime Minister to do the same.

As I was saying, the fact that those on the Front Benches may agree on this measure does not trump the need for the British people to decide. Indeed, it strengthens the imperative for the British people to have the final say.

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[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

My comments are not intended to be judgmental about the many Members of the other place who do such good work; instead they are directed at how those Members are selected. The current method of selection is not appropriate for the 21st century. Labour reduced the number of hereditary peers by 90% back in 1999, but we need to go further: we need to abolish appointed peers and have a properly democratic and elected second Chamber.

As time is short, I shall confine my comments to two issues. The first concerns the bishops, who are not representative of all Christians in the UK, never mind those of different faiths or no faith at all. The Church of England is not the established Church of the United Kingdom. The Church in Wales was disestablished in 1920, in Northern Ireland there has not been an established Church since 1871 and the Church of Scotland Act 1921 acknowledged that the Kirk had never been the established Church of Scotland and so could not be disestablished. Many countries specifically separate Church and state, even countries with a clearly dominant religion, such as Italy or Spain.

Equality legislation in this country outlaws discrimination between men and women, yet for this reformed 21st century second Chamber, the Bill proposes to include bishops from the Church of England, which has fudged on equal rights. After years and years, yet again this week the Church is fudging on women bishops, and we have had nothing but exceptions and excuses, and a ridiculous amendment—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I apologise for interrupting the hon. Lady, but hon. Members should calm down. Those who have just spoken—and it is great that they have—should extend the courtesy of a decent hearing to the person who is now speaking.

[Nia Griffith]

We have had nothing but excuses and a ridiculous amendment that would allow parishes that do not accept women bishops to request a male bishop. This would not be allowed in other workplaces and would be a disgrace even within a non-established Church or religion, but it is utterly deplorable that a so-called established Church chooses to flout the spirit of the law of the land. It is totally unacceptable to give 12 places with voting rights in a reformed 21st century second Chamber to bishops in an organisation that still does not give equal rights to women to allow them to become bishops and which has actually contemplated an amendment that would undermine their authority.

I oppose reserving the 12 places for bishops of the Church of England in the second Chamber because it is not the established Church of the whole UK, because the appointment of bishops does not conform to the spirit of equality legislation and because it is high time that we separated Church and state. If this is really a reform for the future, it is a good opportunity not to include bishops. I ask the Government seriously to consider that issue.

I also have considerable concerns about the proposal in the Bill to appoint, rather than elect, 20% of the Members of the reformed second Chamber. What system of appointing Members could command the confidence of the public? Whoever does the appointing and whatever the procedures, it would be difficult to eliminate all trace of suspicion. We are also told that appointing Members brings in expertise, but what sort of expertise and for how long? Someone who is an expert today might not be a leader in their field in 15 years. There are other ways in which Parliament could bring in experts to advise when necessary, so what is the point of appointing 20% of Members?

Another odd argument is that not electing part of the new second Chamber would preserve the primacy of this House. As my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said, there are many ways of defining powers and processes that would ensure the primacy of this House. I would far prefer a 100% elected second Chamber, but this at least is a start, and even though there might be flaws in the current proposals, I shall be voting for Second Reading.