Health Bill (Sixteenth sitting)

Debate between Sojan Joseph and Karin Smyth

Committee stage
Thursday 16th July 2026 Public Bill Committees

[Karin Smyth]

Again, I am grateful to the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham for bringing this discussion before the Committee. This new clause would require the Secretary of State to make regulations about how the NHS uses private provision to support access to treatment and reduce lists. I understand the point that she is making, but I assure her that this is an unnecessary new clause.

ICBs already can and do use private healthcare providers to offer patients treatment in their area and boost capacity to reduce lists. Our approach is pragmatic, not ideological: in the 10-year health plan, the Government committed to continuing to use private sector capacity where it is available; that is not because we favour the private sector but because we are committed to using capacity wherever it is available. Our priority is treating patients in a timely manner, not favouring one form of provider over another. Under existing legislation, patients must be offered a choice of provider for their first outpatient appointment, where the duty of choice applies. If a person’s needs are not met by local services or waiting times are high, they can use that choice to see an appropriately qualified provider.

However, we must resist the temptation to apply a one-size-fits-all approach here. ICBs are responsible for the financial sustainability, planning and strategic commissioning of services for their local populations, so they are best placed to decide how private premises should be used to meet a population’s needs. For example, high waiting times, which we obviously inherited from the Conservatives, for a particular specialty may result not from a lack of capacity but from increased demand from GP referrals. The ICB must have the flexibility to improve how advice and guidance—referral support, for instance—is working for GPs, rather than being required to wastefully spend NHS funds on increasing capacity with the private sector.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

If this is put on the statute book, will it not mean that the private sector can have more and more hospitals, when we should be using them only if the NHS does not have the capacity? The private sector should be the last resort rather than a first choice.

[Karin Smyth]

I am slightly confused, as I suspect other Committee members are, by the Opposition’s approach to the private sector, having had a discussion in relation to the previous new clause about not using the private sector and boosting work and employment opportunities in our country. They do have a slightly odd view with regard to this. As I said, our view is very pragmatic: it is to support the treatment of patients to get waiting lists down. That is what our constituents deserve. Where capacity can be used, we want to make sure that that choice is available.

Health Bill (Fifteenth sitting)

Debate between Sojan Joseph and Karin Smyth

Committee stage
Thursday 9th July 2026 Public Bill Committees

[The Minister for Secondary Care (Karin Smyth)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Lewell. I will speak first to new clause 84, tabled by the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham. I reconfirm the Government’s focus on reducing long waits by improving patient flow, increasing productivity and delivering better emergency care for patients. Last night in the Chamber, we had a good discussion about corridor care in particular; all our comments are on the record, so I will not delay the Committee by repeating everything, but I will take some time to answer the questions raised in Committee this morning.

We are clear that the Government will end corridor care in this Parliament. It is completely unacceptable. Longer waits for emergency care can be associated with poorer patient outcomes. That is why, through the urgent and emergency care plan in 2025-26, we are investing more than £450 million to expand urgent and emergency care capacity, including new same-day emergency care services, urgent treatment centres, additional mental health crisis provision and nearly 1,000 replacement ambulances. Alongside that, we are implementing new clinical standards and improving patient flow across hospitals, all to reduce the number of patients waiting more than 12 hours.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

I was pleased to take part in the debate in the Chamber yesterday. I raised some examples from my local hospital, which is expanding its same-day emergency care because of the funding that we received from the Labour Government. We also have a safe haven for mental health patients who do not need to go into accident and emergency. Lots of work is happening in my local hospital area, which will make a big improvement to corridor care and wider emergency care pressures. Does the Minister agree that that is what we need to do, and that the Labour Government are doing it?

[Karin Smyth]

My hon. Friend has been a strong campaigner. His health community has a lot of problems, as he well knows, but he is always there first, challenging me about the challenges in his healthcare system. He ensures that the people of Ashford are duly represented. He is absolutely right that what will make a difference to patients is improvement on the ground. I do not minimise how far there is to go, but I think patients are already starting to feel that improvement.

In the debate last night, we heard about some great work that is happening. We heard from, among others, my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford; from my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Andy MacNae), who talked about the challenged system and the challenged hospital in Blackburn, and the real improvements there; from my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Matt Turmaine); and from my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, who talked about progress in West Suffolk. That is really encouraging to see.

Earlier in the debate, statistics in the public domain were raised by, I think, the hon. Member for North Shropshire and others on deaths due to long waits and so on. That is a completely unacceptable situation, but I want to put it on the record that those statistics are not Government statistics. We had a bit of a debate about that. My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket highlighted how one can attribute cause of death to certain provisions. It is a really important measure. We do not want anyone waiting, full stop, but the statistics are not verified as Government statistics. I want to be clear about that.

On new clause 84, I assure the Committee that trusts are already held to account on the number of patients waiting 12 hours from arrival in A&E to admission, discharge or transfer. The medium-term planning framework published in October 2025 sets out the expectation that trusts will reduce the percentage of patients waiting 12 hours or more, year on year until 2028-29, as part of our overall ambitions to return to meeting the NHS constitutional standards.

The Government already produce comprehensive data on urgent emergency care performance, including on waiting times and on 12-hour waits. Those data provide transparency, support the oversight of the NHS’s performance and enable independent analysis of patient outcomes. We have been very keen to ensure that those statistics are published.

Another issue raised this morning was bed numbers. We had a bit of a historical throwback to the 1990s; I will not detain the Committee further by doing that again. My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket talked about changes in clinical practice, mental health beds and so on. I could talk for many hours about that. As a junior manager coming into the health services, one of my first tasks was to define what a bed is. That is not an easy thing to do. Most people think they know what a bed is but, as we discussed earlier, a trolley without wheels could be a bed. Counting beds and defining what they are and what they are used for is a complicated business in the health service. I know you will tell me not to deviate from the new clause, Ms Lewell, but this is important. Practice changes, and it is important that we make the most effective and efficient use of NHS resources. That means making changes to bed numbers, where they are and how we count them.

In June 2026, an average of 13,618 adult patients in acute hospitals per day were waiting for delayed discharge. We have improved data collection, so we have a better sense of the scale of the problem and, crucially, where it is; it is different in different places. We are seeking to improve that data. I gently remind the Committee that the NHS England website produces an awful lot of really good data so that Members of Parliament and our constituents are able to keep track. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket made clear, we need to keep up with best clinical practice, as well as the best use of resources. We are very happy to share that information and keep it transparent.

New clauses 12 and 56 were tabled by the hon. Member for North Shropshire, who is right to raise the unacceptable waits for care that some patients experience in A&E after the decision has been made to admit them. That includes patients being treated and cared for in corridors at times because of hospitals’ lack of capacity to admit them. As we discussed last night, the Government are clear that corridor care is not an acceptable standard of care and must not be normalised. We inherited an NHS under severe pressure with long waits and increasing numbers of patients receiving care in non-designated clinical areas. It is unacceptable, but I am afraid it was allowed to happen under the Conservatives. We are committed to eradicating corridor care, and we have a plan to do so.

To improve transparency, we have already established a clear national definition of corridor care. Again, the Conservatives could have done so in the past 14 years but chose not to. We have introduced daily reporting arrangements and strengthened the data quality processes. We are working hand in hand with stakeholders, including the royal college. In addition, we have published national guidance to support safe care where such situations cannot be avoided.

We are working hard to tackle the causes of corridor care; we are not just reporting on the consequences. That is why we want to improve patient flow. We have had good discussions about patient flow, both pre-admission and post-discharge, involving social care and primary and community care to support people who need care homes. We do not want people—particularly frail, elderly people—turning up at hospitals if it is better for them clinically to be treated where they are. We are improving patient flow, strengthening the discharge arrangement and investing £215.5 million in new and expanded urgent care services across England. We are also providing targeted support to the trusts facing the greatest challenges in relation to corridor care so that improvements can be delivered where they are needed most.

I gently remind the hon. Member for North Shropshire—and the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham, as a clinician, will be clear on this information about admissions—that when a patient presents at A&E, a clinician decides whether to admit them to the hospital, provide treatment, transfer their care to another location or discharge them. Under the current reporting rules, the clock starts running on a patient’s arrival in A&E and stops when one of those actions is taken. As a result, no decision is made to admit to A&E itself. Instead, if someone requires admission, it should be to somewhere elsewhere in the hospital.

Although I fully recognise the concerns that underpin these new clauses, I do not believe that further statutory requirements are the right approach. In the debate last night, we outlined in full the Government’s absolute commitment to addressing the issues and improving the situation for all our constituents. I hope that I have suitably reassured hon. Members that these new clauses are not required, and that they will not press them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sojan Joseph]

I pay tribute to all the parents and schoolteachers who engaged with me last summer, following the White Paper and the SEND consultation. It has been a huge problem in Kent. Kent county council has been under Conservative administration for the last 25 years. In recent years, it was in special measures because of its SEND provision. Parents really struggled. My inbox is filled with these issues. We know that 98% of SEND provision tribunals rule in the parents’ favour. There has been a long wait. Does the Minister agree that, whether we accept the new clause or not, we need to look into how the NHS and local authorities can work together to make it easier for children, families and schools to get proper provision in place?

[Karin Smyth]

I thank my hon. Friend for his description of what has happened in Kent, which has been under Conservative administration for so long. He is absolutely right about the White Paper. The hard work that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the ministerial team have done across the country, regardless of the local political administration, is exemplary. I will come on to talk about the tribunals.

The Government’s SEND reforms aim to transform outcomes for children and young people with SEND and their families, ensuring that the right support is available at the right time and preventing needs from escalating or reaching crisis in the first place. That is why the reforms aim to build a system that parents can trust with collective responsibility in local areas and strong partnership working across education, health and care. That is what parents expect us to be doing.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Sojan Joseph and Karin Smyth

Tuesday 25th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Karin Smyth]

I am absolutely clear that we need to make sure that the job evaluation scheme looks at staff across the piece and that people are rewarded appropriately for the work they are asked to do. We will do that as part of our discussions with the NHS Staff Council, and we will be working consistently with staff as part of the 10-year plan to ensure that people are rewarded. We depend on these staff, and we want to encourage them to be part of the NHS workforce. That is the approach we intend to take.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

7. What steps his Department is taking to reduce the number of people waiting for NHS treatment.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Sojan Joseph and Karin Smyth

Tuesday 11th February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

13. What steps he is taking to help tackle career progression inequalities in nursing.

[The Minister for Secondary Care (Karin Smyth)]

I know that this issue is close to my hon. Friend’s heart, after his years of service as a nurse in the health service. We have to ensure that the NHS is an attractive place for nurses to work, and that they can progress. We hear directly from staff through our 10-year plan, and work closely with the Royal College of Nursing, Unison and other trade unions through our social partnership forum.

[Sojan Joseph]

I must disclose that I worked as a mental health nurse in the NHS for the past 22 years, and that in my career, I progressed from nurse to head of nursing.

Recruitment and retention of nursing staff across the health and social care sector is key to delivering an NHS that is fit for the future, but the most recent NHS staff workforce survey showed that just 56% of staff felt that the health service acted fairly when it came to career progression. What steps will this Government take to address this issue, and to ensure that our nursing workforce feel valued and feel a sense of purpose in their wider work?

[Karin Smyth]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that the issue is key, and that the results are worrying. I know how proud my friends and family members were to become nurses, and what a great career nursing offered them. We have to deliver on the promise of a good career, and build on that pride in being a nurse. We absolutely recognise that we cannot rebuild the NHS without their skills and their high-quality critical and compassionate care.