Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Simon Hughes and Charlie Elphicke

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

12. What steps his Department is taking to promote mediation and the use of independent experts to reduce the number of boundary dispute cases coming before the courts.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon Hughes)]

The coalition is committed to reducing the number of property boundary disputes that come before the courts, as we are to reducing pressure on the court system more widely. I pay tribute to the work my hon. Friend has done, particularly his Property Boundaries (Resolution of Disputes) Bill. We published a scoping study on 15 January, and I hope that will provide a basis for agreeing a way forward that will lead to greater use of mediation and expert determination.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I thank the Minister for that answer. Does he agree that when neighbour property boundary disputes reach the courts, the legal costs often rack up, making it harder to settle the case? That is why I have been making the case for compulsory fast-track mediation, as in the party wall legislation, to make it easier to proceed and to avoid this problem.

[Simon Hughes]

I am absolutely persuaded that costs mount as people go to court, and I want to see the pressures and costs on our court system, as well as on individuals, reduced. We have taken steps over the past year to increase the use of mediation in the family courts, which has been successful. That should be applied to other disputes, including over property boundaries, and experts should also be used, but whether it is right to go down a mandatory route is the difficult question. I will work with my hon. Friend to see if we can reach agreement on how to move forward.

Corporate Tax Avoidance

Debate between Simon Hughes and Charlie Elphicke

Monday 7th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

This has been a really good debate. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) for going to the Backbench Business Committee and persuading it, with the support of some of us, that this is a debate we ought to have. We are on the centre court at the beginning of a new year, and I think that the Exchequer Secretary and his colleagues will be aware that this issue will remain an important one for the Treasury and the Government for the second half of this Parliament.

We have heard valuable contributions from among others my hon. Friends the Members for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) and for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) and the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher), who is not currently in his place. We have paid tribute to others who have been part of the culture change, such as ActionAid’s tax justice campaign, people such as Richard Murphy and journalists such as Ian Griffiths and others who have ensured that we confront the issue.

My constituents, like yours, Mr Speaker, and others, will see posters reminding them that they have until 31 January to complete their tax returns if they have not done so already—MPs included. We all understand that there is a civic obligation to pay tax as individuals, but we all expect, particularly in times of austerity, that there should also be a corporate obligation to pay due tax, and that is what the debate is about. If we are encouraging people to be entrepreneurial and to start their own businesses, it is not a great encouragement for someone who wants to set up a coffee shop, a book shop or a garage, for example, to think that they will have to pay tax while some great international company might put them out of business or prevent them from gaining a foothold in the market by avoiding paying. It is about justice between small and medium-sized enterprises and big international enterprises.

There is a UK obligation, because some of the companies that offend most use tax havens that are UK Crown dependencies. Bermuda, the British Virgin Islands, the Cayman Islands, the Turks and Caicos Islands, Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man feature regularly as places where the system is abused. There is clearly both a national obligation—we can do things ourselves—and an international obligation to act, and I am grateful that the Prime Minister understands that, as do others, and that it will be on the agenda for the G8 summit in Fermanagh later this year.

As I made clear earlier, when intervening on the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton, it was not really fair to criticise this Government on corporate tax, because all recent Governments have been very weak on it. The right hon. Gentleman conceded that new Labour had been poor and criticised it equally. I compliment the Government on their investment in additional effort in the Treasury on this issue, on the commitment to implement the anti-abuse rule later this year, on putting the subject on the international agenda and on making the UK more competitive for business to provide a disincentive for trying to fiddle the system. In particular, I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on picking up on an idea I have lobbied him about a great deal: making sure that the Government look at those companies with which they, and local government, do business and ensuring that we do not give Government money to those who do not pay their taxes properly; it is exactly the right principle that they should not get contracts from the Government either. Of course, there have also been bilateral agreements with other countries.

Let me flag up one main area and one subsidiary area —in relation to the tax treatment of interest payments—which I ask Ministers to look at. Traditionally, interest has been seen as the cost of doing business while dividends are seen as the distribution of profits. For that reason, under accounting rules, interest payments are deducted from operating profits before corporation tax is paid, while dividends are distributed after tax has been paid. Debt can be used to strip out cash generated by companies and to move it offshore before it is taxed. There is also a large problem with private equity funds buying companies, making those companies take on a lot of debt, and using the cash to pay off the loans that they took out to buy them in the first place, so that they can end up owning a company for a fraction of its real price. Companies receive a huge tax advantage from the ratcheting up of debt.

In the finance sector, that is called creating a more efficient capital structure, and people will say that they are just working within the structure put in place by the Government. However, it has a huge effect on the businesses concerned and on the economy as a whole, as well as on the Treasury. It is not about efficiency, because the companies affected are often left seriously weakened and at risk. Many operate on the margins and are unable to withstand any financial shocks. That magnifies the impact of recent downturns. Comet is a recent example of the consequences of excessive borrowing. The increase in debt gives companies far less freedom to invest in new machinery or to make other capital investments, and that holds back growth.

[Charlie Elphicke]

If we believe in deleveraging the economy and deleveraging business, should we not put equity and debt on a similar footing?

[Simon Hughes]

That is a valid point.

As well as tax treatment of interest payments being an unfair incentive to avoid paying due taxes, shareholder loans are a particularly iniquitous example of these practices. That is my second and subsidiary point. Where owners of a company are receiving interest payments, they can manipulate the interest rates in order to remove their tax liability. The current transfer pricing rules are supposed to stop that, as they prevent a company from lending to a subsidiary at a higher rate than the market rate, but what is the market rate in a negotiated transaction between two parties that are, as it were, two sides of the same coin?

I want to give three examples of companies involved and then conclude with some proposals to add to those of my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) and others. I have often cited in this House the water industry in general and Thames Water—the local water company here, and a monopoly—in particular. In 2012, it paid £500 million in interest, which accounted for the vast majority of its operating profit of almost £650 million. In the same year, it paid no tax and instead received a tax credit of £38 million. In the previous year, it paid just £500,000 in corporation tax despite showing an operating profit of £600 million. Half its debt has been issued through its finance subsidiary in the Cayman Islands. Put simply, Thames Water raised the debt and gave the cash to Macquarie, which is based in Australia, so that that company could pay off the loans that it took out to buy Thames Water. The level of debt in the company is now equivalent to 90% of its value. Arqiva, which has Government contracts, receives annual revenues of about £1 billion a year, holds £3 billion in debt, and has an interest rate of 13%, which is extraordinarily high for a monopoly infrastructure provider. Boots, now Alliance Boots, has escaped paying £500 million in tax through a complex arrangement of companies.

I hope that in the forthcoming Budget Ministers will look at the tax treatment of interest payments and, specifically, do what countries such as Germany do in limiting the amount of interest payments that can be deducted before tax, adopting the earnings-stripping rule which applies there and elsewhere. I also ask them to consider whether that should be further dealt with if the company uses a tax haven, to address the question of UK dependencies, and to have an annual debate, as part of the Budget, on how to avoid such abuses of the tax system.

Finance Bill

Debate between Simon Hughes and Charlie Elphicke

Monday 2nd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hughes]

No, I will not give way. The hon. Lady spoke for a very long time, as she often does, and I will not concede. This is a short debate—it goes on only until 7 o’clock—and I want to allow other colleagues to speak.

I want to make a specific plea on biodiesel. I should declare my interest: as some colleagues know, I sometimes drive a London taxi, which has often been powered by biodiesel bought from Uptown Oil, a firm in my constituency that collects used cooking oil from local firms—a chain of good environmental practice ends up in my cab and other vehicles in south London.

I have had discussions with the Economic Secretary and the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), and I asked colleagues—my hon. Friends the Members for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) and for Redcar (Ian Swales)—to argue the case in Committee last week. We have so far not persuaded the Government to change policy, but I wanted to put the case as to why the industry needs continuing Government attention and to ask that they do not turn their back on the industry, even if they are not willing to concede to my requests now.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

I remember a case reported in the papers some while ago. A gentleman in Wales was arrested by customs officials for not paying duty on the cooking oil in his car. He was traced by the smell. Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that cooking oil fuel no longer smells, and that customs officials should not arrest people found with it in their cars?

[Simon Hughes]

I confirm both.

Biofuel is produced from waste vegetable oil and collected locally. This has been going on for a century or more—the first diesel engine ran on peanut oil. Colleagues may not know this, but the idea was that biodiesel vehicles would be used by farmers, who could use their crops effectively. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is clear that the huge numbers of blockages caused by pouring oil down drains are not a good thing—it is better to put it somewhere else, which costs money for companies and local authorities.

Biodiesel also means that such waste does not go into landfill sites, which produce 40% of our methane emissions and 3% of our country’s greenhouse gas emissions. The product therefore helps us to meet our renewable energy targets. We produced something like 35 million litres of biodiesel from used cooking oil sourced in the UK for road transport two years ago, which meant a carbon saving of 82 million kilograms of CO₂.

There are about 30 to 40 producers—not just Uptown Oil in my constituency, but companies all over the UK. They are generally small firms, employing about five to 20 employees. They are confronted by a severely difficult economic situation. We could lose them, which would mean a loss of employment, a loss of revenue to the Government because they pay their taxes, and a loss of the source of the product, which would be a very bad thing.

In April 2012, following a decision by the previous Government, the differential fuel duty on biodiesel was taken away—it was put in place to support the industry—as the system of support across the EU changed to a new one. The derogation was originally meant to end in 2010, but it was extended by two years by the previous Government, because the implementation of the renewable energy directive was delayed—perfectly legally. There was therefore an attempt to ensure that the industry in the UK had continuing support on the basis that when such support ended—it was planned to end in spring 2012 —the new renewable transport fuel obligation certificate system would bring in the revenue.

Sadly, that was delayed—it was due to be implemented in December 2010, but in the end, it was implemented in December 2011. The new system has therefore had only a few months to bed in. The problem—bluntly—is that the price of the certificates is nothing like what the industry expected. Let me give a couple of quotes from people on the front line. This is from a firm in Feltham:

“I have found biodiesel road sales fall through the floor since the removal of the tax differential. 80% of my biodiesel sales now are for use as heating oil at a considerably reduced margin and overall volume of sales. I have had to lay-off my production manager and am working 7 days a week just to try to keep the business going.”

Edible Oil Direct Ltd of Rye, East Sussex says:

“We had to keep our prices at the pre budget price. Our On-Road customers who most makeup ‘saves money’ as opposed to the ‘green impact’ stated that if the price was increased in line with mineral they will switch back to mineral.”

Convert2Green of Middlewich, Cheshire says:

“"On average Convert2Green…received last year 20p tax differential and 17p Renewable Transport Fuel Certificate…revenue per certificate i.e. 37 pence per litre. With this, the company made an operating profit of £290k. Currently, the best offer we have for RTFCs up to April 2012 is 7 pence per litre and from April 2012 onwards 10 pence per certificate. At two certificates per litre”—

the new system—

“we estimate we will get 9 pence per certificate or 18 pence per litre on average. This is a reduction of 19 pence per litre. We sell approximately 3.75 million litres of road fuel per annum. Our profit reduction is £712,500 per annum or £59k per month. This takes us into significant loss. We will have to consider our future.”

Finally, the firm from which I bought my biodiesel, Uptown Oil, just over the bridge in Southwark, says:

“So far it has had a disastrous effect on our sales of Biodiesel for road use....Down 75%. Before the change we were receiving…around 17 pence…and 20p from the government. Now we receive 7p x 2 RTFC so 14 pence. So having increased our price we are worse off by 13 pence a litre. If we were to increase our price by 13 pence our fuel would be marginally more expensive than fossil fuel and sales would virtually cease.”

Those figures speak for themselves.