ISIL in Syria

Simon Hoare Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Let me answer the hon. Gentleman very directly. On the sorts of targets that we can go after, clearly it is the leaders of this death cult itself, the training camps, the communications hubs and those who are plotting against us. As I shall argue in a minute, the limited action that we took against Khan and Hussain, which was, if you like, an airstrikes on Syria, has already had an impact on ISIL—on Daesh. That is a very important point.

How do we avoid civilian casualties? We have a policy—a start point—of wanting zero civilian casualties. One year and three months into those Iraqi operations, we have not had any reports of civilian casualties. I am not saying that there are no casualties in war; of course there are. We are putting ourselves into a very difficult situation, which is hugely complex. In many ways it is a difficult argument to get across, but its heart is a simple point—will we be safer and better off in the long term if we can get rid of the so-called caliphate which is radicalising Muslims, turning people against us and plotting atrocities on the streets of Britain?

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there are already hundreds, if not thousands, of civilian casualties—those who are thrown off buildings, burned, decapitated, crucified, and those who have had to flee Syria, away from their co-religionists who have so bastardised that religion? Those are the civilian casualties we are trying to help.

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend puts it extremely clearly. That is one of the aims of what we are doing—to prevent this death cult from carrying out the ghastly acts it carries out daily.

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[Mr Paterson]

Yes, and I think the Administration were weak not to get their way on that. Of course, the Maliki regime, which was corrupt and sectarian, has now gone. What we need to look at now is how we make these entities work. Any expert on the area will say that it is not an option to destroy these boundaries.

What I would put to those on the Front-Bench—a line in the motion provides the grounds for this—is that we should follow what the current Prime Minister is doing in Iraq in talking about functioning federalism. We need to give these ethnic groups security within the old post-world war one boundaries. If we look at how the Ottomans did it, we see that they basically left the locals to run their own show. There is a clear breakdown in Iraq whereby significant autonomy is provided within these entities, and this is already happening with the Kurds.

Given the terrible conditions under which local people are living, we will not get their support to remove Daesh if they do not feel that they will emerge at the end of this very difficult process with an entity to which they are loyal and feel safe in. Sunnis in Iraq will not stick their heads above the parapet if they think they will end up with another corrupt Maliki Shi’a regime. The same applies the other way round, because the Shi’a will not want to end up with another Saddam regime.

[Simon Hoare]

I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend on the point about federation. Trying to put the construct of a nation-state boundary on what are still tribal areas is almost impossible. Federation has clearly worked well in Yugoslavia, following the conflict there, and it is something that we should look towards.

[Mr Paterson]

My proposal is that we do not rearrange the post-world war one boundaries. We should work very closely with the locals in the Vienna negotiations, with the clear intent that at the end of the process, having removed Daesh by military means, we will have an entity that will allow local ethnic and religious groups to have real loyalty to the area where they live. If we do not do that, all the questions from the other side about the 70,000 and all the rest of it will arise. Of course there is doubt, because they are not prepared to stick their heads above the parapet until they know exactly where we are going and they know that they will emerge living in part of a federation where they can be loyal to the new entity.

I shall support the motion tonight, but I urge the Government in the Vienna negotiations to look at how to bring in the Sunni and other local powers in order to establish a long-term solution. We have to look to the long term; there is no short-term fix. Ultimately, there will have to be an international presence to help grow these local institutions, but we must build them around the local ethnic groups.

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[Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con)]

I praise your endurance, Mr Speaker, rather than any part of your anatomy.

I have sat in the Chamber all day listening to this debate and I remember a debate I heard in this place when I was somewhere else. I was sitting in a forward operating base waiting to go to war in 2003. When many people in this place were talking about it, I was preparing for it. I remember vividly the fear in my heart and in those of the men and women with whom I had the honour to serve. I remember the nervousness, and I feel it again here today. Again, we are making a similar decision and I feel that burden heavily, but I know the courage with which the men and women who will be asked to serve will serve and I know that the Prime Minister’s case is right, honourable and true. That is why I am supporting him.

This is an enormously sad moment for me. I grew up as a young journalist in Lebanon, spending my holidays in Syria. I know the country well and I love the people dearly. They gave me a kindness that no one else showed and they gave me warmth and the richness of their culture and history. It has been the most extraordinary sorrow for me to watch the destruction of Damascus, Aleppo, Homs and Hama, to see the Christians driven from Maaloula, and to see friends of mine, priests and monks, driven from their monasteries and murdered. I know who is doing it. We know who is doing it. Yes, it is the so-called Islamic State, this twisted perversion of Islam that is to Islam what fascism is to nationalism and what communism is to socialism.

This vile Stalinist death cult, this dreadful regime, must, I am sorry to say, be stopped. Sadly, the only way to stop it is not through talks. These are people and this is a group who do not wish to speak to us. They have defined us clearly in their theology as infidels. They have taken the readings of Muhammad Abd al-Wahhab and have interpreted them for the modern age. They have defined us as people who must die or convert. I will do neither; I will fight.

It is not enough for us to look at Syria today and wish for peace. It is not enough for us to stand here and hope for it. We must fight for it. When our friends were attacked, as they were in France—here I declare a close interest as my wife is French—when we see our friends injured and murdered and when they ask for our help, we must think not only of what is the right thing to do for them but of what is the right thing to do for us. Militarily, and for very good reasons, we keep armed forces that are too small. They are too small in technical terms, because our armed forces are not limited to our own planes, our own men and our own ships.

[Simon Hoare]

My hon. Friend is making his point incredibly powerfully, and it will resonate across the House. Does he agree that that is the important reason why we must build an international coalition? No one country can defeat ISIS. We need international western and Muslim resolve against these people.

[Tom Tugendhat]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. He is absolutely right; our defences do not start at Dover. They include the Emiratis, alongside whom I was proud to serve. They include the Kuwaitis, the Bahrainis, the French and the Estonians. They include so many of our allies. Our defence is their defence and, similarly, their defence is ours. We must stand with the French today; they may need to stand with us tomorrow.

This is not just about bombing, about which people have spoken a lot; it is about territory. Denying territory to the enemy and degrading their capabilities through air attack is an essential part of warfare. I have heard so much about military strategy here from armchair generals. May I say to the academic generals that even academics need universities in which to associate and places in which to meet? So too do terrorists: they need space, land and freedom of movement. That is what they have now and that is what we must deny them.

I say again that it is not enough to wish for peace—we must fight for it. As Ibn Khaldun said when he wrote his histories of the 13th and 14th centuries and “The Muqaddimah”, history does come round, and one day I am sure we will all be pleased to see the middle east regaining its rightful position as the heart of light in the region—as a centre of science, excellence and innovation. But today it is our duty to stand with those who strive for it and fight those who would destroy it. We must stand today against ISIS and with the Government.

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[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

Had I been a Member of this House in 2003, I too would have voted against the Iraq war, and had I been a Member at the time of the last vote on Syria, I would also have opposed the Government. I stand here today not as a warmonger or as somebody who revels in military action, but as a pragmatist who has listened to, and been convinced by, what my Front Benchers have said, which is why I will support the Government this evening.

It would have been in the spirit of honest politics—indeed, it would have been far more honest—if the leader of the Labour party had come to this House, put up his hands and said, “I am a committed, long-standing pacifist of conviction,” instead of trying to hide behind artificial barriers and tests. His silence on the subject of our activity in Iraq, and the absence of any support from him for our military personnel there, spoke volumes—it was deafening, and the House heard it.

Last night, I spent a pleasant half-hour talking to four of the anti-war protesters outside this House: a taxi driver, a teacher, a charity worker and a tour guide. They asked me why I was voting in favour, and I shall tell Members why. This is not a war, it is a recalibration and extension of an existing operation. There are civilian casualties now, and we cannot sit idly by. We have to have an element of trust in those who can see the security documents and who are convinced by them. We also cannot rely continually on our security services to be 100% right, 100% of the time.

[Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a threat and a present danger to this country, and that it is only thanks to our security services that it has not been realised? We need to recognise that threat now.

[Simon Hoare]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, as are a number of Members on all sides of the House. I agree with the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) that there is no certainty in this. We have all come under a huge amount of pressure from constituents—90% of mine who have emailed me are opposed—but I rely on Edmund Burke, who said in 1774—[Interruption.] This is as true today as it was then—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Let us hear about what Burke said in 1774.

[Simon Hoare]

I am grateful, as long as I am not the Burke of 2015.

Burke said, “Your representative”—that is, one’s Member of Parliament—

“owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.”

We are here to exercise our judgment, and in my judgment the wording of the motion covers all the bases, all the challenges and all the tests that Members of this House have set the Prime Minister.

We are not the policemen of the world, but we find nothing splendid in isolation. What we do reflects on our values, and the value we place on our strategic and political partners. “Je suis Parisien” has to be far more than just a Twitter tag. It is time for action.