Railways

Debate between Simon Burns and Gavin Shuker

Thursday 25th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Burns]

If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I want to make some progress.

The Commission’s explanation is that removing authorisation powers to the agency will help to address the delays that some operators have reported when seeking authorisations from national safety authorities. That is especially the case for cross-border operations where a train may run through more than one member state. We are not currently aware of significant costs or delays for railway undertakings in obtaining those authorisations in the UK, so we are not convinced that there is a problem in the UK. That is why we need to safeguard practices that already work here.

Overall, the Commission needs to be clearer about how the changes to the directive will contribute to market opening. Another Commission proposal is to change the authorisation process for trackside signalling, which would have a significant impact in the UK. There is not yet much experience in the UK of the authorisation of trackside signalling by the national safety authorities. However, UK projects are more likely to prefer to seek authorisation from the national safety authority rather than the agency, because they have not encountered difficulties so far.

The Commission has explained that to deal effectively with authorisation delays and cross-border problems it requires action at the EU level. It argues that individual member states acting independently cannot address such problems. However, at the Transport Council on 11 March, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State proposed that there might be an alternative to moving powers away from national safety authorities to the agency. We have suggested giving the market a choice about where the authorisation is obtained from, so we propose exploring with member states and the Commission an approach that would enable rail undertakings to choose whether to obtain an authorisation from the relevant national safety authority or the agency. The same principle could be extended to give the industry a choice about where it needs to apply for trackside signalling authorisations. The UK is continuing to push for our choice of approach so that the national safety authorities and the agency could have the power to authorise vehicles.

The details of the recast of the interoperability directive are being negotiated in Council working groups. However, there are indications that our views about choice are being listened to and that other member states support our idea, which gives us grounds for encouragement. We will keep a close eye on how the proposals develop to try to ensure that we get the best outcome for Britain and the rail system in Europe. We will try to preserve as much flexibility as possible for member states to determine what work needs to be authorised and the applicable standards.

Let me turn to the impact of the proposals to require a railway infrastructure manager to be separate from a railway undertaking. The Government will need to understand the possible effects on several areas, including alliances between Network Rail and railway undertakings, and joint working arrangements. Within the package are requirements to ensure the effective independence of the infrastructure manager within a vertically integrated undertaking. The Government are looking further at how they will influence the holding company model, as used by Eurotunnel in respect of the channel tunnel and the cross-border rail services that run through it. There will also be points to consider for the railway structure in Northern Ireland, which remains vertically integrated.

Sir Roy McNulty concluded in his report—we accept this—that the key to delivering long-term efficiencies in the rail industry is the alignment of incentives between track and train. Alliances or partnerships between Network Rail and the passenger train operators are central to our approach. Alliances are expected to maximise efficiencies and to ensure that minority freight and open-access operators are protected, not discriminated against. They do so by ensuring that capacity allocation and charging decisions are undertaken outside the alliance to avoid discrimination against smaller train operators, including freight operators. Safety is protected by ensuring that ultimate accountability rests with the statutory duty holder. We believe that that is compatible with the open competition in rail markets that the Commission wants, but we are worried that the way in which the Commission’s proposals are formulated might prohibit certain types of alliances, such as between Network Rail and rail undertakings, and joint working arrangements, such as integrated control centres and performance improvement projects. The proposals therefore might prevent us from achieving the benefits that we anticipate. I know that the Transport Committee’s report stated that joint working between Network Rail and train operators should not be prohibited or unduly restricted. We will continue to engage closely with the European Commission and Parliament, and other member states, to ensure that our concerns are addressed in the final proposals.

On the impact of the proposals on franchising, we welcome the commitment to market opening.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Minister give way on that point?

[Mr Burns]

I actually have not said anything yet, so I am not quite sure what the hon. Gentleman is going to ask. Perhaps he will allow me to say a little more.

We believe that the liberalised domestic market has delivered significant benefits for passengers. We have shown our commitment to franchising through the recent announcement to restart the franchising programme and return the east coast main line to the private sector.

[Gavin Shuker]

I am extremely grateful to the Minister for giving way on that point. Will he confirm that it would not be possible for him to continue to operate the east coast line through Directly Operated Railways if this package of measures goes through? I understand his commitment to returning the line to the private sector, but given that it is thriving in the public sector, why does he want to go along with these proposals?

[Mr Burns]

I am not sure what it is about the hon. Gentleman that he cannot comprehend the position, but I suspect that he just has not read the facts. Lord Adonis and the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), when he was in my post, also believed that it was best to operate trains through franchises in the private sector. Even when Lord Adonis had to introduce the emergency measure of taking the east coast main line into public ownership, as a result of the problems that blew up at that time, he was clear that that would be a short-term measure and that the service would be returned to a franchise when it was possible to do so.

[Gavin Shuker]

indicated dissent.

[Mr Burns]

The hon. Gentleman is displaying a degree of incredulity and suggesting that that was not the case. I know that he was not a Member at that time, but if goes to the Library to find the relevant copies of Hansard, he will read that Lord Adonis and the right hon. Member for Tooting were emphatic in their announcements to Parliament that the decision on the east coast main line was a short-term measure. I am rather grateful that Lord Adonis went a step further by saying that it was better for the railways to be run by franchises in the private sector.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Simon Burns and Gavin Shuker

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

7. What his most recent estimate is of the cost of NHS reorganisation.

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)]

The cost of the NHS modernisation is estimated to be between £1.2 billion and £1.3 billion. It will save £4.5 billion over the rest of this Parliament and £1.5 billion a year to 2020. We will reinvest every penny saved in the NHS in front-line services.

[Mr Burns]

No, I do not believe it is. The administration figure that has been announced for CCGs throughout the country is £25 a patient, but if a CCG is more effective and efficient in providing administration and bureaucracy and makes savings, those savings can be transferred and reinvested in funding the care of their patients. That is an incentive for them to be streamlined and to ensure that that happens.

[Gavin Shuker]

The Minister speaks of reinvesting every single penny in the NHS budget. How does that fit with the £500 million raid on the NHS budget spoken of this week?

[Mr Burns]

If I could explain this to the hon. Gentleman, the £500 million that he is talking about was part of the savings made through renegotiating the IT contract. It is a perfectly normal procedure, because as the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) will know, the average figure for previous years was £850 million, and one year when he was a Minister at the Department of Health, it was £2.3 billion.