Compulsory Emergency First Aid Education (State-funded Secondary Schools) Bill

Debate between Sheryll Murray and Tania Mathias

Friday 20th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Dr Tania Mathias (Twickenham) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) on the Bill. It is an important measure, and I support it, but I believe that it could go much further.

My interest in this subject stems from something that happened to me when I was a junior doctor working abroad. A gentleman was unconscious and not breathing, and was surrounded by hundreds of people. A great crowd had built around him, but it became apparent that nothing was being done. Despite my—at the time—limited knowledge of the language of the country, I managed to get through the crowd and start the resuscitation procedure. Members of the crowd acquired a pick-up truck, and the gentleman was transferred to some hospital. I still do not know where the hospital was, or the gentleman’s name. He did not survive, but I believe that he could be alive today if someone in the crowd who had been standing close to him when he collapsed had known how to perform basic CPR.

Like my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray), I am focusing on CPR rather than on first aid in general. I believe that schools should have the freedom to decide what is on the curriculum, but I make an exception for CPR. I have been doing some basic research in my constituency, because it surprised me to learn that only one in four schools provided first aid or CPR education. I am heartened by the fact that most of the schools in Twickenham that have responded to my inquiries already provide CPR education for their students: that is terrific. Well done Waldegrave and Lady Eleanor Holles! I am bigging up the girls, because my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mrs Trevelyan) was a girl guide—just saying. However, other schools such as Teddington school provide CPR education, and I applaud the sea and air cadets in Twickenham, who are also learning how to carry out the procedure. I am strongly in favour of the Duke of Edinburgh awards; the bronze award involves first aid including CPR, which is absolutely brilliant.

I am very fortunate in Twickenham. However, as I have said, I think that the Bill should go further, because I think that first aid education is needed in the community per se.

[Mrs Sheryll Murray]

I acknowledge that my hon. Friend is probably far more experienced and qualified to speak about this subject than I am—although I was a doctor’s receptionist for 21 years—but does she think that the quality of provision might be reduced if it were made compulsory? Rather than what people doing what they need and want to do, they might be thinking, “We have to learn this”, while not actually paying any attention.

[Dr Mathias]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I share her concerns, but I was converted when the British Heart Foundation visited the Commons and I saw its kit, which I have told all my schools is offered free—I thank St Richard Reynolds school, because it is taking that up. I was very impressed that the kit includes a DVD; a specialist trainer is not needed. The BHF showed us the models, including Resusci Annie. In half an hour, I was convinced—the BHF let me test the kit—that in that time one can teach good CPR that will be useful for a good samaritan or a passer-by. I share my hon. Friend’s concern, but I am convinced by the BHF campaign.

I want this to go further, however. In Twickenham, I am concerned not so much about the children, but about our community. I have said before in the House that someone should have CPR training if they get a driving licence. Also, every business that has a health and safety expert should arrange for the 30-minute training that the BHF provides.

I will purchase one of those kits and offer it free to businesses in Twickenham to see whether we can roll this out. I also believe that the national citizen service could include first aid in its programmes, because it is a brilliant scheme. Everywhere there is a defibrillator—and there are a few in the community—every business and institution within 100 metres should be given the opportunity to learn how to use it. Wherever there is a defibrillator inside a sports hall, it should be available—behind protected glass or whatever—when the hall is closed.

My concern is for CPR to be rolled out in all our communities. Yes, make it compulsory in schools, but we have to go beyond that. I commend the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Sheryll Murray]

rose—

[Dr Mathias]

rose—

[Peter Aldous]

I will give way to my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray) first.

Compulsory Emergency First Aid Education (State-funded Secondary Schools) Bill

Debate between Sheryll Murray and Tania Mathias

Friday 20th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

May I clarify the point that I made in an earlier intervention? If somebody has a pulse that cannot be detected, or if somebody is breathing very shallowly, someone who comes along and starts to administer CPR could do damage to their health. That is the point I was trying to make, and I hope that I have now clarified it. When I did CPR training—which I renew on a three-yearly basis—that point was clearly emphasised.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce). Although I do not agree with the process that she is using to ensure that everybody is aware of basic first aid procedures, the work that she has done to highlight this issue to the wider population and not just in schools is laudable. I pay tribute to her for promoting this Bill. In my opinion, however, making first aid education compulsory could weaken the quality of the good training done by voluntary organisations. We might get a lot of youngsters saying, “I’ve done the 30-minute lesson in school, so why should I bother to go to St John Ambulance?”

[Dr Mathias]

Has my hon. Friend any evidence at all that people who have done some first aid are put off doing other first aid courses?

[Mrs Murray]

I did not make a statement; I said that I was speaking about my personal opinion. I do not want to undermine the superb training that our voluntary organisations already provide. I believe that if we as Members of Parliament went out and used this debate as a basis to say to youngsters, “Why don’t you go along and take up the quality and comprehensive training that is already available outside school hours?”, we might perhaps achieve the same results.

I agree that the wider population should also be educated about first aid, which is why on Wednesday my three members of staff visited Liskeard fire station to receive precisely the type of training that the Bill promotes. However, they must continue with such training, and if the certificates that they receive are to remain valid, they must be renewed every three years. If we make first aid compulsory in state-funded schools, will people continue to update the education that they have received once they move on to further education or university? Will we make that compulsory as well?

[Dr Mathias]

One of our colleagues mentioned that the CPR skills she learnt as a brownie were good enough for her to pass, as an adult 20 years later, the St John Ambulance certification.

[Mrs Murray]

I left my employment at the doctors’ surgery the day before I was elected to this House. The CPR training I received when I first started work at the surgery in the early 1990s was different to the training I received just before I was elected to this place in 2010. That is one reason why it is essential for training to be upgraded on a three-yearly basis. I am sure that my hon. Friend, as a medical practitioner, agrees with that. By the way, the doctors I worked for used to come to the training sessions as well. I understand that it is not compulsory for a doctor to take CPR training.

[Dr Mathias]

Does my hon. Friend agree, however, that while regular updates are the gold standard, someone who has had even one session of CPR can help as a good Samaritan at some point in their life? It is not ideal to have practised only once, but it will do no damage.

[Mrs Murray]

Damage could be done if the person has not had a heart attack. I am just basing what I am saying on what I was told when I did my CPR training.

There are other areas where first aid is already compulsory. For instance, those in the fishing industry have to do first aid training before they can go to sea. Their insurance is invalid if they do not have the up-to-date certificates. They do the training every three years, which backs up what I was saying: a certificate needs to be upgraded, updated or renewed every three years. Other community groups also undertake training, and we now have a lot of first responders in our communities. That is not to say that someone can be a first responder if they say, “I did my compulsory first aid training session at school.”

I really believe it is not right to make training compulsory. I support the concept of promoting first aid and CPR training, and I support educating the wider community that it is okay to follow the instructions on a defibrillator. I cannot, however, support making that compulsory. I will just end with the words of the chief executive of the National Union of Teachers, who said in response to a proposition to extend the school day that teachers are already under enough stress without them having to have more work heaped on them.