Level 7 Apprenticeships

Debate between Sarah Gibson and Andrew Western

Tuesday 25th November 2025 Westminster Hall

[Andrew Western]

I certainly agree that apprenticeships are an important route. The hon. Lady will be aware that there has been a significant shortage of town planners for some time, and I do not think it is reasonable to characterise these changes as the cause. I am not suggesting that that is what she is doing, but we need to be careful. She is arguing that this may exacerbate an existing problem.

We have a broader challenge with town planners that needs to be addressed. Unfortunately, they tend to qualify and go to the sort of civil engineering consultancy that I used to work for, to earn lots more money. Based on the call for evidence and the information collected by Skills England last year, we are hopeful that we can work with a number of employers, including local authorities—accepting funding constraints—and the NHS, because specific nursing routes have been excepted, having been considered a challenge early on, to look at whether they can fund level 7 apprenticeships directly. We think that is more feasible than at a lower level of apprenticeship, because there is often a long-standing existing relationship between the employer and the potential apprentice. The evidence suggests a greater willingness to invest in individuals, because employers recognise their skills and talents, and have been working to develop them for some time.

[Sarah Gibson]

My specific point earlier was about some of the built environment professions being different from big engineering firms; they are not Jaguar Land Rover. A large architectural firm—even the largest ones in London—probably has no more than 50 to 60 employees. They are small businesses and, in the same way that local authorities are constrained, they are not in a position to finance their apprentices. They rely on the levies because they are just not big enough as businesses. That makes a difference to the sector, as does the fact that it is one qualification, not a separate thing. The constraints in the profession are quite acute because of the size of the business. That makes a difference—it is not the NHS.

[Andrew Western]

If I suggested it was the NHS, I apologise, because that was not my intention. Established long-standing relationships, where an employer has invested, mean that level 7 apprenticeships may be a space to encourage conversations between employers and existing staff members, because they have proven their value.

I appreciate that architecture has a particularly long, challenging and incremental qualification route, which is the best way to describe it. That is why it is important that, when there are challenges and employers are not in the position to offer a post-graduate financing route, that that remains available. As I said, I will come back to the hon. Member for Chippenham on the questions she raised about her sector, as I had not realised we were going to drill down so particularly. She is right that architecture firms come in all shapes and sizes, from large consultancies that have an architecture or built environment function embedded in them, to out-and-out architecture practices that may not be that large. I undertake to come back to her in writing on those issues.

Question put and agreed to.