Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Naomi Long

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I trust that I will do what the shadow Secretary of State did and give a balanced view, from a Northern Ireland perspective, of where we see the Bill taking the Northern Ireland economy and the impact that it will have on the economy.

It would be churlish if we did not acknowledge that considerable work has gone into the proposal. It has taken many years, and as the right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson) indicated, a large number of people have been involved in making the case for the devolution and then doing what was necessary to bring it about.

I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman for the role that he has played in this change, although I would point out that the cudgels were first taken up by the leader of my party, who was then Finance Minister in Northern Ireland and was convinced that the decision made after the Varney report was published was incorrect. He started the ball rolling on this issue in Northern Ireland. Many businesses also supported the campaign.

I also pay tribute to the work done by the Financial Secretary and his officials during the time that I was the Finance Minister in Northern Ireland. I know that sometimes we made progress and then were knocked back a bit, and it was frustrating at times. But many of the issues addressed during those discussions were essential if the issue was not to fall foul of European legislation or decisions by the European Court. Much of that groundwork was very necessary.

One of the things that drives this change is the desire in Northern Ireland to transform our economy. Our region has not always been in the economic doldrums. In fact, for a long time during the 20th century, Northern Ireland was a driver in the UK economy. We had world-leading, world-renowned industries that drove a healthy economy. Many of those industries declined because of changes in world demand, distribution patterns and global trends, which also coincided with the start of the troubles. As a result, major industries declined and Northern Ireland was an unattractive place for new private sector companies, resulting in an unhealthy increasing dependence on the public sector.

One of the aims of the Northern Ireland Executive is to rebalance the economy as well as to grow it. To do that we need the right economic levers, but—as the Secretary of State said and the shadow Secretary of State alluded to—there is no point having those levers in our hands if the right conditions do not exist. I agree with the Government—although some frustration is felt back home on this point—that it was right for them to insist that the Executive have a budget that showed the tax change was sustainable and that we could absorb its impact. It was right that we should not pay money annually to the Treasury because we had not concluded the welfare reforms, because that was of course a drain on the resources that were available to the Executive.

The conditions that were laid down were correct and the Executive has now proposed a budget, although it has not been supported by all the parties. Some parties, even though they are in government and their Departments would benefit from the savings in the budget, have taken an irresponsible attitude. They think they can benefit from the budget and at the same time distance themselves from the more difficult aspects of it—

[Naomi Long]

And you would never have done that.

[Sammy Wilson]

I seem to have hit a sore spot or at least the tender parts of the body politic among those parties that have engaged in such activity.

We have to get the welfare reform proposals through the Executive, but agreement has been reached and I hope that, as this Bill makes progress, we will also see the passage of the welfare reforms in Northern Ireland, albeit with changes—mostly secured by my party—to the Welfare Reform Bill that will make it less draconian. Indeed, I think that some of the changes in the Welfare Reform Bill will have to be revisited by this Parliament at some stage.

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[Sammy Wilson]

Given the comments from the hon. Gentleman’s party and the Labour party, I suspect the grant will not be higher. Furthermore, we still have to deal with our dependence on public sector expenditure. It is being squeezed all the time, and therefore we need to look at rebalancing the economy.

[Naomi Long]

I agree that public finances will continue to be under pressure and that therefore we need to grow the private sector to counterbalance that. Does the hon. Gentleman agree, however, that Northern Ireland’s reliance on the public sector is even worse than the Secretary of State mentioned, because many of the privately owned companies are almost entirely reliant on Government contracts? It is not just about those directly employed in the public sector; it is about the number of private businesses that rely on the public sector for their employment.

[Sammy Wilson]

That is one of the reasons, of course, that some people say the public sector accounts for as much as 62% of employment in Northern Ireland. Some of it is disguised in the way the hon. Lady suggests.

We have to consider whether we can simply sit on our hands. However, there is a second consideration for the Northern Ireland Executive. Yes, there is some risk attached to the policy; all economic policies carry some risk, but in measuring and trying to balance that risk, we have to consider the impact of the policy elsewhere, especially in areas similar to Northern Ireland. I have already mentioned the approach of the Republic of Ireland Government.

As the changes to the rules on accounting and disclosure come forward, I know that some of the financial services issues might be addressed, but we have not touched on the ongoing cost of the devolution of corporation tax, which is currently reckoned to be about £300 million. However, as the economy grows, a formula will be imposed in respect of the loss of revenue, and given that there could be a substantial reduction in corporation tax in Northern Ireland, the formula must not be draconian. For example, if it was set at an unrealistic rate, based on the performance of better performing regions or of the UK economy as a whole, the burden could become substantially higher as time goes on. We need clarity on that issue.

The right hon. Member for North Shropshire said that from this day on the Executive should be proceeding with this matter, but we cannot do so because the Bill has not yet been passed. I know he is enthusiastic, but I think his enthusiasm has run away from the reality: the Bill has to pass its stages as normal.

National Crime Agency

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Naomi Long

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson]

That is always the danger. The more levels of accountability are put in place, the more bodies may be restricted in their operation.

The next point made by the hon. Member for South Down was that we have never addressed the issues of accountability. Let us look at what is in place. Before the NCA operates its statutory powers in Northern Ireland, it has to get that cleared by the Chief Constable, who, in turn, is accountable to the Policing Board. If something goes wrong and there are complaints, the NCA is totally accountable to the Police Ombudsman of Northern Ireland. That is the same degree of accountability as for any other police officer. Once we examine the idea that the issue of accountability is not being addressed, it is seen to be clearly incorrect. It is nonsense. It is a case of dancing on the head of a pin while the criminals walk off with their ill-gotten gains.

The hon. Lady’s next point was about whether covert operations will be subject to the RIPA— Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000—requirements, and so on. Again, covert operations will have to be notified to the Chief Constable, who will be aware of the conditions under which those operations will be undertaken.

[Naomi Long]

More than that, the Chief Constable will be accountable for those operations in a way that would not have been the case previously; if people wish to query decisions that have been made, he can be held to account by the Policing Board.

[Sammy Wilson]

If I had got to my next sentence, that is exactly the point I was going to make. The Chief Constable goes along to the Policing Board on a monthly basis and can be questioned on all the issues that the board is concerned about and all the issues that concern him.

The last point that the hon. Member for South Down made is that all this has to be wrapped up in statute. An assurance has already been given; I have heard the Justice Minister give it. Indeed, when I was a Member of the Northern Ireland Executive, the assurance was given not only that there would be a legislative consent motion here establishing the powers of the NCA, but that any additional statutory changes that were needed in law would go through the Northern Ireland Assembly.

It is not the case that the conditions of accountability are not being met. The hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) asked for an explanation of what is happening. I do not want to take the worst possible explanation, but there are only two interpretations I can think of: first, that the SDLP is so scared of Sinn Fein that it will not take a courageous step on an essential element of policing; or secondly—this is even more petty and childish—that because the term “national” is in the name, the SDLP cannot accept it. We could either batter SDLP Members into submission in this debate or persuade them, but even if we did persuade them by the end of the debate, the situation would not be resolved: given the way the Northern Ireland Assembly works, Sinn Fein has a veto on any legislation because it holds a certain percentage of seats on the Executive.

I have a challenge for the Government. If, even after all the safeguards that the nationalists have said they want have been put in place, there is still a refusal, do the Government have the courage to say, “If you’re going to put the security of people in the whole of the United Kingdom in jeopardy, if you’re going to allow Northern Ireland to be used as a back door for international criminal gangs, and if Northern Ireland is to be the bank for criminal gangs, we are going to put an end to that by putting through legislation—we will take it out of your hands.” That would be a real step of courage, and that is the test.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Naomi Long

Wednesday 12th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Naomi Long]

I appreciate the opportunity to do so, but I will not go too far, because Mr Deputy Speaker will be quick to reign me back in. In terms of what the AERC is looking at, we want a review of the question of an addition to the numbers of Members and Departments. We also want to move away from the Assembly’s designation system—which I believe copper-fastens sectarianism within our structures and manages division rather than addresses it—towards a weighted majority voting system. I believe that that would be much more fluid and that it would allow Government and, indeed, Assembly decisions to be taken much more quickly and easily than is currently the case with our mutual vetoes, which do not serve Northern Ireland well.

I would also like the Assembly to have opposition structures similar to those in this place, which has a properly financed and funded Opposition who can hold the Executive parties to account. It is a very difficult job. During my time in the Assembly I sat as part of the unofficial Opposition—we were not in the Executive—and although it was a very nice place to be and we could be critical of what was going on without having the responsibility of making the decisions, it was not properly funded or researched. Often it was done on a shoe string in comparison to the support received by the majority of Assembly Members, who were members of Government parties and had access to the relevant structures.

[Sammy Wilson]

I think that anyone listening to this debate would be surprised to hear that, while there appears to be a willingness to see the changes mentioned by the hon. Lady, there has been absolutely no move towards making them. Indeed, a properly structured, effective Opposition could be easily obtained if those who talk about it were prepared to drop out of the Executive and take up opposition positions, but, of course, they do not.

Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Naomi Long

Wednesday 13th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson]

It is with regret that I see the references to Northern Ireland and the role of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland being removed from the Bill, and I want to put some questions to the Minister on this point. If any part of the United Kingdom needs the effective operation of a national crime agency, it is Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in this House has already identified the fact that hundreds of millions of pounds every year are lost to the Exchequer and go into the hands of criminal gangs, on many occasions to finance terrorist activities, as a result of fuel laundering alone. There are many other areas in which organised crime plays a big role in Northern Ireland. We need the National Crime Agency.

The role that the criminals play is not confined to Northern Ireland. Their tentacles spread well beyond Northern Ireland and dealing with them involves operational decisions that cannot be taken solely by the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Indeed, the fact that they are now laundering their money across Europe and north America demonstrates the international dimension involved, and the PSNI cannot be expected to deal with them alone.

[Naomi Long]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that a false interface is being created between terrorism and criminality, which is an extremely blurred area in Northern Ireland, in that the same people are often involved in both activities? Does he also agree that a false interface exists in the incorrect assumption that there is some kind of border beyond which the tentacles of those criminals cannot reach?

Security in Northern Ireland

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Naomi Long

Wednesday 21st November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson]

I have not heard that phrase for a while.

As hon. Members have pointed out, despite those changes it is important that we do not get complacent and that we recognise that dangers still lurk that affect people’s daily lives in Northern Ireland. We have to deal with those dangers, and I accept that we as the public representatives in Northern Ireland have a responsibility to deal with them ourselves. I am glad that we are moving away from the days when we went and asked everyone else to help us with our problems and relied on them to sort out our problems for us. We have a devolved Administration, which includes parties across the board, although it is a difficult arrangement to make work, especially when dealing with people as financially irresponsible as Sinn Fein and, marginally behind them, the SDLP. People talk of their support for the police, but if the police start to deal with some of the colleagues of those who were involved in terrorism, that support suddenly becomes qualified. It is disgraceful—

[Naomi Long]

Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that Ministers from his own party advocate civil disobedience in the face of violence in the streets of our cities? That is also irresponsible and should be condemned and avoided.

[Sammy Wilson]

In any democratic society, there is always the opportunity for people to engage in peaceful protest, if that is what the hon. Lady means. There is a huge difference between those who say that members of the public can engage in peaceful protest and those who say that it is political policing for the police to go through due process to arrest people for serious crimes—including murder. I notice that the SDLP Members have been quiet on this point. It is one thing for someone on Dungannon council in the back of beyond to call for the release of someone who was guilty of trying to murder a council colleague: it is another to stand up in the House of Commons and defend that. I note that SDLP Members have not tried to do that, because there is a bit more public scrutiny here.

It is important that we in Northern Ireland take responsibility not only for seeking to try to heal the divisions of the past, but for giving support to those who have to deal with the reality of the lingering terrorism that we still experience. I do not buy the idea—to which the shadow Secretary of State referred—that people get involved in terrorism because they are economically deprived. We do an injustice to people who have lived their lives in difficult economic conditions and never become involved in crime if we make that excuse. We have a responsibility to provide hope in our society, so that people can have a stake in it, feel that there is something better for them and that it is a place where they want to belong. The Executive are seeking to do that and to direct resources towards the young and unemployed, and people who have lost their jobs. We are looking at innovative ways to try to give that economic hope to people.

There is a need for security policies that will be effective, and responsibility for those may, at some stage, lie with the Government here in Westminster. If we are going to deal with terrorism, we must have intelligence. There are various ways of gathering intelligence—electronic surveillance and so on—but human intelligence sources are also important. The security services are responsible for gathering that intelligence in Northern Ireland. I know that they are hampered in doing so, and I remember my time in the police force and some of the unrealistic demands that were made, especially by some of the SDLP representatives—Sinn Fein was not on the Police Board then. People almost had to be Sunday school teachers to become informants for the police because there were so many restrictions. If people were involved in this, that or the other, they could not be recruited as intelligence sources. We would have been left with people who would not have had any idea about what was going on in the criminal underworld of terrorism if we had stuck by those restrictions. The important question is what changes we need to make to get the intelligence required to ensure that those who want to engage in such criminal behaviour are quickly identified.

There is also a resource aspect to this. I know that the Police Federation has talked about 1,000 extra police officers. I do not know whether we need 1,000 extra police officers or not, but I do know that if we are to target terrorists—including intensive surveillance on them—it will require additional resources. I give credit to the Government because when policing and justice were devolved, we were given additional resources for policing of £50 million on a yearly basis, depending on the assessment of the security situation. The Chief Constable and the Northern Ireland Executive made the case that they had to plan ahead and could not be left to wonder whether they would get the £50 million every year—whether the security situation would be assessed as okay or as having deteriorated. They asked for the money to be guaranteed for a four-year period, so that planning could take place to make best use of the resources. I pay tribute to the Government and the Treasury for accepting that argument, and that is why the Chief Constable has been able to plan ahead.

Additional resources may be required in the future. If so, it will be to deal with a national security situation, and not just to have more community policemen on the ground in Northern Ireland. I understand why Members on both sides of the House, when they see cuts in their police service, ask why Northern Ireland is treated differently from other parts of the United Kingdom when it comes to constraints on police budgets. But this issue does not apply only to Northern Ireland. If the situation gets out of hand, it will have national security implications. Republicans would far rather do something on the UK mainland than in Northern Ireland—that would be much more newsworthy. They get the base, they get the wherewithal, they get the ability and they get the mechanisms for doing it, and we can be sure that this is where the targets will be.

If the Chief Constable makes the assessment that additional resources are needed, I hope there will be a positive response. That is not to say that we in the Northern Ireland Executive must not do anything. Indeed, we have provided for greater flexibility in the security budget than for any other budget. In any other Department, where money is not, or cannot, be spent in the way it was voted on, it has to be returned to the centre and looked at again. The security budget has been ring-fenced so that the Chief Constable has much greater flexibility. This is not an issue of holding out our hands and looking for more money; this is about what we can do for ourselves first of all. However, if the situation deteriorates—I hope that it does not, and that there is never a need to call on the House and the Government for more resources for policing in Northern Ireland; I, and the citizens of Northern Ireland, want to see policing return to normality—then that is one thing that could be done.

I appreciate the response—the support and recognition—from all parts of the House to the situation in Northern Ireland. For our part, we raised this issue because it is important to the people who live in Northern Ireland for it to be highlighted. We have done so in a measured way; not in an alarmist way, but in a way that, as public representatives in Northern Ireland, we have a duty to do.

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[Naomi Long]

I concur entirely. In some areas where loyalism has a particular grip on the community, racketeering and profiteering from local businesses have often led to the destruction of small businesses and severely damaged economic opportunities for those living in the immediate area.

[Sammy Wilson]

indicated assent.

[Naomi Long]

I see the hon. Gentleman—who was previously a councillor in my constituency—concurring. We are talking about something recognisable in many of the communities that both of us have served. It is therefore hugely important that we take seriously the call by the Police Federation for Northern Ireland to consider re-specifying organisations such as the Ulster Volunteer Force and also proscribing some of the newer republican organisations, in order to aid the police and security services in making progress against such organisations.

I was born at the end of 1971; 1972 was the worst year of the troubles. I lived my whole life as a child against the backdrop of violence in the city I grew up in. I look at Belfast now and it is not the city that I grew up in. It is a better, more vibrant, more open and more welcoming place. I am hugely proud to have lived in that city; however, I would not wish my experiences of growing up there as a child to be visited on another generation. When the Good Friday agreement and the subsequent political agreements were made, I believed that we were moving towards the end of such experiences. I do not want young people in my community to have the same memories—of death and destruction, of fear and terror—as I and my contemporaries grew up experiencing. It is not a normal way to live, and it should not be visited on today’s young people. Therefore, as elected representatives, together with the security services and the community, we must present a united front so that those intent on continuing down this destructive path are prevented at every turn.

Security is part of the answer, but it is not the whole answer. Our security response in the current context needs to be effective, but also consistent with the kind of Northern Ireland we want for the future. We need politics to work. It needs to be a real alternative. It needs to be resilient in the face of attack and united in its condemnation of any breach of the rule of the law, and without equivocation. We need to redouble our efforts to build a shared society and tackle sectarianism, which remains a breeding ground for the kind of hatred that in turn breeds paramilitarism. We need maturity and generosity in dealing with the difficult issues that still face us as a community, as part of the legacy of the troubles. We need to find ways of doing that which do not bring people on to the streets, placing them in conflict with our security services and creating opportunities for those who wish to take the extra step from peaceful protest to violent conflict by providing them with a platform to do so.

Northern Ireland Economy

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Naomi Long

Thursday 1st March 2012 Westminster Hall

[Sammy Wilson]

I will not go back over the happy bit, because we have got that dispensed with, and I think we are all suitably happy.

My first point is that when we talk about rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy, there is a misconception that that means contracting the public sector and filling the gap with the private sector. If that is all we did we would be no better off. We would still have a cake the same size, but it would be divided differently. At present in Northern Ireland the public sector is too large relative to the private sector; but that is not a function of the public sector being too big. It is a function of the private sector being too small. If we are to improve the well-being of people in Northern Ireland we must grow the economy, but the part that must grow fastest is the private sector, because a certain level of provision for health, education, roads and so on, will always be required.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman on that point. Does he agree with me that if the public sector is cut too quickly, without growth in the private sector, much of the good work to try to get people into employment is undone, perversely? Also, more demand for the public sector is created, because people become reliant on benefits and other things that require servicing by the state.

[Sammy Wilson]

That is correct. In the past three years when I have been Finance Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive we have cut spending on consultancy by 56%. That is a good result, as far as I am concerned, but of course many private sector consultancy firms do not see it as a good idea at all, because people have been laid off. That bears out the hon. Lady’s point.

I am not complacent about the relative size of the public sector vis-à-vis the private sector, but we must avoid a simplistic view of how to go about things. It should not be a case of squeezing out the public sector and filling the gap with the private sector. We should grow the private sector and use what we can, and the resources of the public sector, to encourage that.

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[Sammy Wilson]

Having two of the major power stations in my constituency, I know this already. They are considering what their investment will be in future. In a single electricity market and with that interconnection with the Irish Republic, of course, we could find ourselves increasingly at the mercy of what happens in another country, with all the difficulties that that causes. The Government should consider what can be done with energy costs, because that is important.

On devolution of other tax powers, there may be occasions when we look specifically to have control over some things. I want to put on the record my appreciation, and that of the Northern Ireland Executive, for the work done by the Government on air passenger duty, particularly on direct long-haul flights from Northern Ireland—especially to north America—which was going to have an impact on our economy. Hon. Members have mentioned the importance of tourism, but it was not just about that; it was much more about the impact on foreign direct investment and inward investment, which was worth an awful lot in respect of our economic strategy. Around summertime last year, Northern Ireland Office Ministers worked with Treasury Ministers in the middle of the recess to get this thing resolved. It would be churlish not to show our appreciation for that work and for the way that it will now go through. That was an important measure.

I am not a great fan of devolution of more fiscal powers to the Northern Ireland Executive, but there will be occasions when we perhaps need to consider specific issues. I hope that a response will be forthcoming.

It is important to mention that the banking structure in Northern Ireland is not the same as in any other part of the United Kingdom. Some 95% of banking in Northern Ireland is done through Irish banks, which are in a poor state, or through Ulster Bank, which is an annexe of RBS. Many of the other banks that people have access to in the rest of the UK do not operate in any significant way in Northern Ireland. As a result, all the surveys about how businesses are faring in respect of banking show that Northern Ireland falls well below other parts of the UK, in respect of the terms that are offered, the availability or restriction of credit, or calling in loans.

If anything will crush the ability of the private sector to grow in Northern Ireland, it will be the absence of liquidity. The Northern Ireland Executive have considered various things, including loan guarantee funds, which the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment operates. We are considering how we can attract equity funds and what we can do to put some money into equity funds to get venture capital, especially for start-up businesses in Northern Ireland.

It is important that the banking sector operates properly in Northern Ireland. For example, here are some things that the Government could do. Why do we not have regional figures for how well Project Merlin is operating? I suspect that, although banks are meeting their targets throughout the UK, proportionally those targets are not being met in Northern Ireland. Could the Government do something in respect of credit easing? What could the Government do to ensure that the liquidity, which is generally pumped into the banking system, is reflected in the liquidity available to banks in Northern Ireland and, therefore, available to customers?

[Naomi Long]

The banks tell me how few people they turn down when applying for loans. However, the small businesses that say they cannot access finance say that they are dissuaded, at the first hurdle, from applying for loans and are told that, if they did, they probably would not get them. A circular argument develops, with banks saying no one is asking and small businesses saying no one is getting.

[Sammy Wilson]

That is one reason why, when one looks at all the business surveys and the terms offered for loans, compared to the rest of the UK—I had the figures here somewhere, but I cannot dig them up at the moment—some 10% more businesses in Northern Ireland are saying that terms for loans have worsened between 2007 and 2011. Of course, on top of that many businesses have huge debts associated with property.

I listened to the chairman of RBS the other morning on Radio 4 saying how the bank had brought down its bad property debts. That is good from the point of view of the bank’s record, but I know what that means in places such as Northern Ireland: a good, strong business with a core operation, but with some bad land loan attached to it, is squeezed to bring down the debt on the land and, in doing so, people are being put out of work and businesses are finding it impossible to expand, even where they have good markets. The Government have to address the banking issue in the longer run.

I will mention only one more thing, so that other Members have a chance to get in, and that is VAT. I understand Government reluctance to reduce the rate when VAT brings in a lot of revenue, but to do so would of course have very beneficial effects in stimulating the economy. The Government do not have to reduce VAT rates generally; specific reductions in the tourist sector, as in the Irish Republic, or in the building sector, so that people could put extensions on their houses and so on, could stimulate a lot of labour-intensive employment not only in those particular industries but wider afield—I am not saying for Northern Ireland specifically. Come the Budget, the Government should look at that.