Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Bill

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Mark Francois

2nd reading
Monday 18th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I am not going to congratulate the Minister on bringing forward this Bill, first because we should ask: why has it taken so long? The Conservatives had this issue in their manifesto in 2017, they boasted in the 2019 general election that they would use Brexit freedoms to bring in animal welfare measures, and now, at the end of 2023, we are finally seeing a Bill emerge. There is no doubt about the need for this protection. Members have outlined the undue and unnecessary suffering involved in the live export of animals, and Ministers have made reference to it—whether it is the stress, injuries and trauma for animals; the fact that they are taken to destinations where they are often treated far worse than they would be in abattoirs here in the United Kingdom; the starvation, or the fact that many animals die during those journeys. Of course this is a necessary piece of legislation.

If the Government had grasped the Brexit opportunities, we could have introduced this Bill a long time ago. It is no excuse to say, “We have not had any live exports of animals anyway, so it did not matter.” The fact is that there was a promise and an ability to deliver on it, but it was not done. Members have mentioned many of the other animal welfare measures that could have been introduced on leaving the European Union, but they have not happened. That is the first reason why I will not congratulate the Minister: the Bill is tardy, and it is a mark of the Government’s unwillingness to use the opportunities that Brexit made available to the country.

The second important reason why I will not congratulate the Minister is that the Bill does not refer to the whole of the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland is left out. When I intervened, the Secretary of State gave the totally spurious reason that Northern Ireland was left out to give Northern Ireland farmers—because we can have movements within the British Isles—the benefit of being able to trade with the rest of the United Kingdom and with the Irish Republic.

The farming Minister may well argue that trade with the Irish Republic may not involve long journeys for animals, because some of the abattoirs are just over the border, and there is significant trade across the border, and that is true. However, if it were only a case of applying this Bill to Northern Ireland so that we can trade with the Irish Republic, it would have been easy to provide for that by having this Bill cover the whole United Kingdom with a clause making it clear that when animals are being exported to the Irish Republic, a final destination must be stated, because of the nature of trade across the border. If the real aim of this Bill, as the Secretary of State has said, is to stop the disgraceful trade in animals being taken for long journeys in terrible conditions with terrible suffering, it has not achieved that for the thousands of animals who will still be able to be transported from Northern Ireland into the continent of Europe.

[Mr Francois]

I suspect the House would thank neither me nor the right hon. Gentleman if we tried to embark on a long debate about the Windsor framework tonight. I am sure that the Minister would not, either. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree in principle that it would be a desirable outcome if the Government could find some mechanism in Committee—if they could be ingenious about it—so that the benefits of this Bill applied to animals in Northern Ireland?

[Sammy Wilson]

If the Government did that, I would eat the words with which I started my speech and I would congratulate the Minister. I have suggested that it could be done by making the Bill cover the whole of the United Kingdom. If the only concern is about the volume of cross-border trade on the island of Ireland, the Government should state in the Bill that the livestock must have an end destination in Ireland.

Let me just spell out the Bill’s implications. Thousands of animals are exported to continental Europe every year. The good thing is that we will now, Pontius Pilate-like, be able to wash our hands and say, “If they are going to continental Europe, they will not go through Great Britain.” The Bill makes it clear that a person who exports

“relevant livestock from Great Britain”,

or,

“transports, or attempts to transport, relevant livestock from or through Great Britain”,

or,

“organises, or attempts to organise, the transport of relevant livestock from or through Great Britain”

will be breaking the law. However, there is nothing to stop someone from Northern Ireland taking the animals in a lorry the whole length of the island of Ireland down to Rosslare for a 20-hour sea journey. They could then go on to continental Europe and down to Spain, or wherever the final destination happened to be, and all the suffering that this Bill is attempting to stop would not be prevented for exports from Northern Ireland.

People may say, “There are safeguards on the journey.” When the Northern Ireland Assembly was operative, I remember raising the case of unweaned calves with an agriculture Minister. I asked him to refuse to accept journey logs unless the calves were given milk replacer and unloaded before the lorry went on a ferry. That is a ferry journey, do not forget, of nearly 20 hours. I will share the answer from the Minister, just so that I can spell out the welfare implications of omitting Northern Ireland from this Bill. He said that the Department does not consider it necessary to feed calves during their rest period or before they get on the boat. Even if people do not do that, they will be in compliance with EU regulations. That is the implication of leaving Northern Ireland out of this Bill. The real reason for doing so is not to ensure that farmers in Northern Ireland can have free access to the Irish Republic. The real reason was given earlier by another speaker: judgments have been made in the European Court of Justice.

Judgments made in the past still apply in Northern Ireland. Any judgments in the future will still apply in Northern Ireland. EU law will, and does, still apply in Northern Ireland. This Bill cannot apply in Northern Ireland because, as a result of the protocol, the Windsor framework and the arrangements that have been put in place, Northern Ireland is still gripped by the tentacles of the European Union. That is the real reason for leaving Northern Ireland out of the Bill. Do not let the Minister pretend tonight that he is concerned about farmers in Northern Ireland not being able to take their cattle to abattoirs or places for fattening in the Irish Republic. If that were the case, he could make that possible under this Bill.

I ask the Minister whether that has been considered in his discussions. If it has been considered and rejected, why has it been rejected? Is he content that a part of the United Kingdom will still have the ability to export sheep, cattle and animals of all sorts right across the continent of Europe and over a long sea journey? The sea journey will be longer now because we cannot use the land bridge of Great Britain. The sea journey will be from Rosslare to somewhere in northern France. To me, that does not look like concern for the welfare of the animals that will be transported.

Although it is not the subject of today’s debate, one of the impediments to getting an Executive set up in Northern Ireland is that kind of intrusion. Even if the Executive were operating today—I believe that the majority of MLAs in Stormont want the same provisions as there are for the rest of the United Kingdom—they would not be able to bring in those provisions, because this is an area where it appears that Westminster does not have any control over the law in Northern Ireland. The Assembly would not have control over the law in Northern Ireland; Brussels makes the decision on this. The European Court of Justice has made a ruling on it, and the sufferers are the animals that are subject to inadequate protection in law.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Mark Francois

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 11th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson]

Of course there are limits, and the ultimate limit is that we have heard speeches from Government Members today, and a considerable number of people, not just on the Opposition Benches, have made it quite clear that they perceive dangers in this Bill and would not give the Government a free hand. If Ministers tried to overstep the promises made on the Floor of the House and the limits on the face of the Bill, we can be sure of one thing: it will probably not be Opposition Members who stop Ministers doing that but Government Members. That is the ultimate brake on Ministers who try to abuse the powers that are being given to them.

[Mr Francois]

Reference was made earlier to the Lisbon treaty and, like me, as he was in the House at the time, the hon. Gentleman will remember debating it night after night. There is a fundamental difference between that and the Bill, in that the Bill can be amended in Committee or on Report, whereas we could not change a single dot or comma of the Lisbon treaty.

[Sammy Wilson]

Of course. That is the flaw in the argument of Opposition Members who have said that this Bill is flawed and therefore ought to be rejected tonight. If the Bill is flawed, the place to change it is here when it comes back for debate and amendment in Committee. That is the real test of whether people want an effective Bill, or no Bill because they do not want us to leave the EU in the first place.

Let us consider the impact of not having the powers in this Bill. First, we would now be gummed up for the next number of years in trying to get the legislation through. Secondly, there would be no certainty for businesses. I have heard people say here so many times, “We need certainty.” Well, the one way of having certainty is to transfer EU law into UK law so that there is a framework. Lastly, the Bill will enable Ministers, when they go out to negotiate our free trade deal with the rest of the EU, to ensure that we start from a basis of compliance and equivalence.