Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill

Debate between Sammy Wilson and David Morris

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 8th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)]

I really wanted to contribute to today’s debate because my local port of Heysham will be directly affected by the outcomes of what we are discussing today.

I went to see the port not so long ago to talk about how we best facilitate the trade coming through it. I met the port authorities and the chief executive of Seatruck Ferries, Alistair Eagles, who envisaged that, given the way things are looking, there would be no problem with trade from Northern Ireland coming into the port of Heysham and the rest of the UK. There was one thing that concerned me around that time: press reports of a “Dad’s Army” of customs officers being recruited. Such reports were completely unfounded and erroneous, because we know now that customs officers are being recruited. The main point I looked into was the fact we could get our trade from Northern Ireland moving through the port of Heysham seamlessly, as happens now. It was agreed at the time that that could carry on, so I am glad to report to the Chamber that, judging by what I found out and the experiences of how the port is working, we do not envisage a problem.

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that we on the Northern Ireland side also welcome the fact that the Government have made it clear that trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK will not be interrupted in any way as a result of leaving the EU? Indeed, despite what has been said in this House time and time again, the Government have put forward very positive proposals as to how that frictionless trade can be conducted.

[David Morris]

I could not have put that any better—I agree with everything the hon. Gentleman said.

I will give just one taste of how trade works in my area. We are the first port of call—excuse the pun—for Northern Ireland. I hope that the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) and I are going on a little project on a Wrightbus—known as the Boris bus—from his constituency through the port of Heysham all the way down to London to demonstrate exactly how trade works within the UK and how it will flourish under the Bill.

Small Businesses: Tax Reporting

Debate between Sammy Wilson and David Morris

Monday 25th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[Sammy Wilson]

That is exactly the kind of question that any reasonable business would want answered when deciding whether the change is good or bad. It is easy to hide everything behind a term such as “quarterly, digitally-gathered business records” but the detail, as the hon. Lady says, is significant for businesses.

If the information is to be looked at in detail, that will affect how businesses go about collecting and verifying it. Most businesses do not want to make mistakes. They are not all treated—unfortunately, Minister—like the Googles of this world. Many businesses fear HMRC—they fear the taxman. They are afraid of making a mistake and of that being interpreted as them somehow trying to pull the wool over people’s eyes. Inevitably, instead of one visit to the accountant or auditor, there will be three or four visits. I do not think that this is just speculation, because one only has to look at what happened when VAT filing started. That was sold on the same kind of basis, because we were told, “You just fill in all the stuff,” but that was not what happened. People started going to accountants to get them to verify that they were sending in the proper information.

Will more queries be raised with businesses and will more time be tied up dealing with those queries? As businesses see the quarterly returns as something of great significance that have an impact on the tax they pay and how that might be scrutinised, will they face more compliance costs due to their asking professionals to do their returns? Alternatively, as some Members have described it, is it simply that they will have all the information on one spreadsheet, and that they can click a button to send it to HMRC, with that being the end of it? I doubt very much that that is how businesses will regard this, and HMRC has already accepted that there will be set-up and hardware costs.

[David Morris]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the best way to sort out such hardware and software costs will probably be to look at examples elsewhere? The Estonian Government, for instance, do not use paper at all; everything is done online. We have imported the car tax system from Estonia, and perhaps it would be good to look at how other countries manage similar taxation programmes.

[Mr David Hanson in the Chair]

[Sammy Wilson]

If we have long enough consultation and lead-in periods, there will be opportunities to find out where similar changes have been made and what lessons can be learned from them. I hope that that elementary step is taken so that we iron out some of those things. If the software is free, it does not mean that there will be no disruption to businesses because they will have to adapt to a universal form of data collection, which might be different from what they use at present. Of course, that requires training and changes to how things are done.

Many people in my constituency who have set up small businesses or become self-employed did so because they are good plumbers, carpenters, builders, mechanics or whatever, but they are not into the administrative stuff. Even if there is help and this standard software is provided free of charge, they will pay somebody to carry out the process, and if they have to pay that person four times a year, it will add to their costs.

As several hon. Members have said, while we talk about all this information being supplied online, that is not an option for many businesses throughout the United Kingdom. A report that was published on Friday by a group of hon. Members stated that it was accepted that the internet programme has not been rolled out as well as the Government had hoped. The report made substantial recommendations and asked whether we could implement them without breaking up BT’s monopoly.

One thing we know is that HMRC has accepted that 19% of businesses have no digital contact, and that 42% need assistance, so a substantial number of businesses will not find the transition easy. Connections in this part of the United Kingdom are much better than those in Scotland, Northern Ireland or other areas of England and Wales where the population is perhaps more dispersed, so the burden of not being able to comply with digital returns will be felt much more heavily in some constituencies than others, and that needs to be taken into consideration. I do not want to make a point that others have made, but if the system needs to involve other ways for people to contact HMRC, we already know that there will be difficulties. I do not want to go through all the statistics about phone calls not being answered—

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson]

I have three points to make in conclusion. First, although more than 100,000 people have signed the petition, I believe, despite what the Government have said, that that is probably an indication that many businesses are not even aware of the changes. If the policy announcement has not percolated down to those who will be affected, how can we be sure that they will be fully aware of the substantive changes to come until they are hit by them? There is a lesson to be learned about just how effective the announcement and the consultation have been. Secondly, although the Government argue that they want to reduce the regulatory burden on businesses, I cannot for the life of me, for the reasons I have given, understand how the approach will reduce that regulatory burden.

My third point is about political perception, but it is important, and I would have thought that the Minister’s party would have been particularly concerned about this. There is increasing cynicism that somehow big business gets away with things that small business does not. The measure will apply to small businesses but not to large ones, yet all the time the headline news is about how the latter—whether it is the Googles or the Starbucks —seem to walk away from their tax responsibilities. People will find it difficult to understand why there should be a greater onus on small businesses to declare their earnings and business details when some of the larger ones can get away without paying tax for 10 years and then get a slap on the wrist. As we discussed earlier in the main Chamber, they seem to get away with paying very little.

[David Morris]

I would like the hon. Gentleman to try to look at the matter this way: self-employment is the largest growing sector in the country, and that has to be taken into account when considering how taxation should be simplified. As my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) said, the sector is the powerhouse—the engine room—of our economy. I hope that the hon. Gentleman agrees that two different styles and sorts of businesses are being discussed in parallel. Our earlier proceedings in the Chamber were about the Googles of this world, and this debate is about the self-employed and small and up-to-medium-sized enterprises.