Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Colum Eastwood

2nd reading
Monday 23rd January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson]

For any problem to be resolved, as the hon. Gentleman knows full well, we need a Budget that Departments work from. The Northern Ireland Assembly has collapsed twice in the last four years. On both occasions, it collapsed without a Budget; that is a fact. It collapsed without a Budget because the Finance Minister could not present a Budget that people and other parties could sign up to. On both occasions, the Ministers responsible were Sinn Féin Ministers. All I am saying to the Chairman of the Select Committee is that we could not have had a functioning Assembly. Leaving aside the principle of consent, we could not have had a functioning Assembly because the Assembly did not have the authorisation to spend money on Departments because of the failure of Ministers.

[Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)]

Of course, the right hon. Gentleman is a former Finance Minister, but we should not go into his record in that Department if we want to get through the day. He knows that I am no supporter of Sinn Féin, but has he noticed that Sinn Féin has said that it would take the Department for the Economy if an Executive were formed tomorrow? Given everything we have seen over the past 25 years, that would likely mean that the DUP would get the Department of Finance. Surely that is an incentive for the DUP to go back into government and put a Budget in place very quickly.

[Sammy Wilson]

I do not want to get into history, but I would point out that in the first year I was Finance Minister, we had a 5% cut in the Budget in the middle of the financial year as a result of decisions made here, and we agreed a Budget. Furthermore, we agreed a Budget not just for one year but for three years, so it is possible for the Assembly to make decisions. All I am saying is that, in its current form and with the current party holding the Department of Finance, that has not been possible. The point I am trying to make is that rather than lay the blame at the feet of the DUP for not operating an Executive—in which its views were excluded anyway—we should lay the blame for this situation at the feet of those who could not make an operable Budget even when the Executive was functioning.

Moving on to my second point, the Minister has made great play today of the fact that Northern Ireland gets treated more generously than the rest of the United Kingdom. I accept that, but so do Scotland and Wales. One of the important things about being part of the Union is that there are fiscal transfers from those parts of the country that have geographical, economic and infrastructure advantages that other parts do not have. I do not believe that it shows a begging-bowl mentality when people in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland—or indeed the north of England—say, “Look, there are parts of the country that are richer, but one of the benefits of being part of the Union is that those parts help the areas that are in difficulty.” Indeed, the Government’s own philosophy at the moment is what? To level up, and to accept that there is a responsibility to transfer resources to those areas that, for whatever reason, face disadvantages.

I would point out to the Minister that the increase in the money we have had to receive is partly due to the protocol, which his Government signed up to. There is nearly £500 million a year in the trader support scheme, as well as the resources behind the extra sanitary and phytosanitary checks—the people who have had to be employed, the computers that have had to be installed and the buildings that we now find are going to be built, but not as a result of a decision made by Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive, because of course there could not be agreement on that.

Ministers at Westminster have now taken over the power to deliver at least a £47 million investment in border posts within our own country. There are questions—not for today, but at some other stage—about who authorised civil servants to start the work on those before Ministers in Westminster took responsibility, even though it was controversial. The Minister has talked about the difficulty of civil servants taking decisions, but it seems that when they want to, they can even make controversial decisions—decisions that split the United Kingdom and put border posts between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. Nothing can be more controversial than that, yet civil servants seem to have been able to take those decisions.

The Bill allows Departments to spend until the end of this financial year, and then into the middle—I think it is June—of the next financial year. That is not unusual. Indeed, if the Assembly had been functioning, that power would have to have been given to give the Departments the ability to spend that money on account until the Budget was finally agreed—it usually was agreed, but it was not agreed in some cases—in the Assembly in June of this year.

There are aspects of the Budget that are particularly difficult: one, which has already been mentioned in interventions, is the expenditure on education. Once education and health are taken out of the Northern Ireland Budget, we do not have a great deal left, because they account for over 60% of spending between them. However, education has been specifically targeted by Ministers to face a reduction, even though education spending in Northern Ireland is at the lowest level per head in all parts of the United Kingdom. The difference between Northern Ireland and Scotland, for example, is £1,200 per pupil. I know that these things are not always solved by money: although Scotland has the highest level of expenditure per head when it comes to education spending on pupils, its outcomes are actually falling, so let us not imagine that there is a direct correlation all the time between spending money and getting outcomes.

I am sure the Minister will make the point that that is why it is important for Government Departments to make decisions about performance, efficiencies, productivity and so on. Some of the decisions that the Assembly has made have not been helpful in that regard. The Integrated Education Act (Northern Ireland) 2022, which was passed just before the Assembly collapsed, gives preference to one particular sector of the education system. I think that Act is going to make it much more difficult to rationalise education and, therefore, to ensure that money is better spent. While I do not want to go into the detail of the Act today, that is what the other sectors of education believe as well—that it is going to make that whole process of efficiency and spending in education more difficult than it is at present. Again, that is an example of where just having a devolved Administration, which should know local needs, does not always ensure that the most efficient decisions will be made.

On health, leaving aside the money that is spent directly from Westminster—annually managed expenditure —we are now spending nearly 45% of the total Budget that the Executive has to spend on health, yet outcomes are falling and waiting lists are increasing. I get letters from constituents and angry letters from doctors all the time, saying, “We need to spend more on health. We are under- resourced; we are underfunded.” I do not know how much of the Budget we can continue to take out and give to one particular sector—there are other areas, as Members have mentioned, including policing, infrastructure, education, universities, training, agriculture and industrial promotion. All those things are in competition, and we cannot simply say, “Here is one part of the Budget that we will keep pouring money into.”

Of course, as I mentioned, some money could be released for the trader support service and the other expenditure around the protocol—nearly half a billion pounds every year. As the Government now accept, the reason why that money is spent is that the protocol is such a big disadvantage and a burden on business that they need to help those businesses overcome the bureaucracy, and the barriers and impediments to trade between GB—our biggest market—and Northern Ireland.

The other point I wish to make on the Budget this afternoon is that when it comes to looking at priorities, even in the absence of devolution Ministers could do more to look at where we need to spend the money and direct civil servants. Despite what the Minister has said, civil servants now have the power to have greater flexibility in how money is spent. I know it is difficult for them and that some of those decisions are political, but there have already been political decisions made about the priorities that the previous Executive and the Assembly wanted. Surely those things should be guides to civil servants in making decisions about how money could be more effectively spent. As I have said, they make some controversial decisions in relation to the protocol, so there is no reason why we should not have tweaking of the Budget.

The last point I wish to—

--- Later in debate ---

[Colum Eastwood]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: we would not be where we are today were it not for the actions of the DUP. And where are we? We have people dying in their homes because ambulances are not coming in time. We have people on trolleys for over 24 hours in every hospital in Northern Ireland. We have an Education Department that is being cut to ribbons by this Budget. We have people from my constituency emigrating every day because they cannot find work. Will that all be solved by the Executive in the morning? No, it will not, but it is our job to try. That is the whole point of representative democracy. That is the whole point of devolution. That was the whole point of the Good Friday agreement—that people who disagree with each other can come together and thrash out agreements to get things done. It is difficult and it is tough, but it is what we are supposed to do.

I welcome the conversion of the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) to levelling up areas that need it most. I will extend an invitation to him now to visit Foyle, because my experience of previous Executives is that they did not do an awful lot of levelling up there.

[Sammy Wilson]

The hon. Gentleman continually raises this issue—sometimes taking a whining approach as well—but under the Executive I remember money going to the airport at Londonderry, Altnagelvin hospital getting the cancer centre and money being allocated for the road from Londonderry—

[Sammy Wilson]

I am thinking only of my own experience. Actually, the road was cut because the Irish Government said they were not going to make their contribution to it.

[Colum Eastwood]

It is interesting that people in Derry are entitled to some Government funding—thank you very much! My constituency has the highest unemployment, the highest claimant count and the highest household overcrowding, and it has five of the 10 most deprived areas in Northern Ireland. Maybe some work was done, and maybe some money was spent outside the Greater Belfast area, but it has not had the impact that some might claim.

If people think it is good enough or acceptable just to say that we will throw a few quid at people in Derry—people who have been left behind—after many decades, they are absolutely wrong. The New Decade, New Approach agreement was referenced earlier, and this Government have a responsibility for some of the commitments in it. I think of the expansion of Magee—there is still no funding for that from the Government. There is the Brandywell stadium—there is still no funding for that from the Government. And there is the Northlands addiction centre—we have had promise after promise, but the money is still not in a bank account.

Frankly, I find it difficult to watch people jumping up from their seats and giving excuse after excuse as to why it would not make any difference if we were in government, when people are literally dying on trolleys right now because they cannot get access to the health service. We are abdicating our responsibilities as elected representatives for the people.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Colum Eastwood

2nd reading
Tuesday 22nd June 2021 Commons Chamber

[Colum Eastwood]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He has a very optimistic view of how politics in Northern Ireland works. I have absolutely no interest in things being done here that should be done at home, but people have to live up to the things that they committed to and deliver them.

The reality is, though, that there are a lot of things in New Decade, New Approach. The right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon will know that I talked about this every single time we met during the negotiations. I am the representative for the city of Derry, and for 57 years we have been denied a full-scale university. It is in New Decade, New Approach. What are the Northern Ireland Executive doing about that? We had to fight like mad to get them to implement the support for the medical school at Magee. What are the Northern Ireland Executive and the British Government, who will need to support this, doing about waiting lists? Again, that is in the New Decade, New Approach agreement. What are the Executive doing about making housing a stand-alone priority in the programme for government?

I very much welcome today’s elevation of the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson), and I phoned him earlier to congratulate him. I was disappointed, though, to hear him say in his first statement as leader of the party that his No. 1 priority will be the protocol. Last week, we heard from Sinn Féin, whose No. 1 priority was the Irish language Act. I want to take this opportunity to make it absolutely clear that the SDLP’s No. 1 priority is the 350,00 people languishing on waiting lists, in pain, today, because the Executive have not got round to dealing with that crisis. The waiting lists in Northern Ireland would make a third world country blush. Yet, last week, Sinn Féin threatened to bring down the very edifice of government over the Irish language Act—it is a very important issue, but not the most important issue that we should be dealing with today. This week, the DUP is threatening to bring down the very edifice of government on the protocol.

Would it not be better if we actually sat down together, worked these issues out, worked together, recommitted to the institutions of the Good Friday agreement, and, more importantly, the spirit of the Good Friday agreement and began to deal with the issues that are the real priorities of the people of Northern Ireland—nationalist, Unionist or other?

[Sammy Wilson]

Will the hon. Member agree then that, since we already spend about £200 million on the Irish language, whether it is in relation to education, broadcasting, street names and a whole lot of other things in Northern Ireland, he would not give priority to further cultural issues when a huge amount of money is needed to deal with the waiting lists he described?

[Colum Eastwood]

I thank the right hon. Member for his intervention. He gave a fantastic oration earlier on in support of devolution and the Good Friday agreement. It was fantastic to hear him talking about the Good Friday agreement in such glowing terms. I was 14 or 15 when that was signed. Maybe my memory is not quite serving me right, but I just cannot remember how exactly the DUP voted on the issue of the Good Friday agreement. But if he has now become a convert to the Good Friday agreement and all things power sharing, I welcome him on to the pitch. I am delighted to see it.

The point about the Irish language issue, and all the cultural issues—remember, it was not just the Irish language that was dealt with in the NDNA agreement—is that you can do two things at once; you can do many things at once when you are in government. I would go much further, by the way: I believe absolutely that the language and cultural legislation needs to happen and has to happen as quickly as possible. Do I think we should be threatening the very edifice of government and power sharing over that issue? No, I do not. Equally, do I think we should be threatening the very edifice of government and devolution and power sharing and the Good Friday agreement institutions over the protocol? No, I do not.

That is the problem. We have two parties in control in Northern Ireland—in charge for the last 14 or so years—that are absolutely and totally obsessed with themselves and their own self-interest, with nowhere near enough effort put into dealing with the problems and crises that are evolving, in our collapsing health service and in our education system, which is in real trouble. Why do we not focus our efforts on that, instead of constantly having culture wars and constantly dragging ourselves to the brink of collapse? I will tell hon. Members why: because it suits those two political parties and the system we have created and the bastardisation of the Good Friday agreement that happened at St Andrews to keep having this culture war: “Let’s build both sides up against each other; let’s build the walls higher and higher.”

Why not break down some of the walls? Why do we not realise that the people’s priorities are the health service, access to decent education and a job for the young people? When I walk around the city of Derry, it is a city that has been starved of investment for many a decade, and a city that still does not have—this was in New Decade, New Approach, as the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon will know, as I helped write some of the words in that document—the full-scale university that it desperately needs. Derry needs that university to stem the tide of our young people leaving—hundreds of them every year, never coming back.

They are the issues we should deal with. They are not Unionist priorities. They are not nationalist priorities. They are priorities for every single one of our citizens. For God’s sake, can we not start dealing with those, instead of bringing ourselves to the brink of collapse every single time?

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Colum Eastwood

Wednesday 16th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Colum Eastwood]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The consensus across Congress is behind the Good Friday agreement. They have been our friends for many a decade. They have supported us through all the difficult times, and they are supporting us today. They are saying that there will not be a trade deal between the United States and this country if we do any damage to the protocol or the Good Friday agreement. That is what they have said, and people should listen.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I am amazed at the hon. Gentleman’s comments. He will know that our biggest trading partner outside GB is the United States of America, so any trade deal with America is bound to have a beneficial impact on the people of Northern Ireland and the economy of Northern Ireland. Is he telling us that his party will actively campaign against a trade deal with America that would benefit his constituents, my constituents and the Northern Ireland economy?

[Colum Eastwood]

We want a trade deal. We want to be able to trade right around the world, but the warning is clear: if people mess about with the Good Friday agreement and all our political progress, there will be no trade deal. The people who proposed and campaigned for Brexit and who do not understand that we cannot square all these circles need to wake up. There will not be a trade deal if they continue on the track that they are on. There is still time to go backwards and realise that our peace process, our political progress and having no border in Ireland are paramount and will not be messed with—that will not be accepted by anybody at the height of political power in the United States.

The Bill is an affront to international law, as has been said many times this week. It rips up an agreement that was made between this Government and the European Commission. It threatens a hard border in Ireland, and in clauses 46 and 47, it rides a coach and horses through the devolutionary settlements for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. If that was done on its own, there would be an outcry. Our amendment 19 is there to give consent—the much-used word—to those legislative Assemblies and Parliaments. No Whitehall Minister should be allowed to override, deny or undermine the interests and opinions of elected representatives in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. If Members agree with that, they should support amendment 19.

Where I come from, we value democracy, because people had to actually march for democracy there. In 1968, my own grandfather and hundreds of other people were beaten off the streets by a corrupt and unjust police force sent there by a corrupt, sectarian and unjust Government. The civil rights movement got rid of that Government, but it took 30 years of democratic struggle against the men of violence, against the state and against intransigence, sectarianism and division to bring about an end to that and make sure that our own people could be represented by local politicians, making local decisions on their behalf. That was not easy; it was very difficult. They created a delicate agreement called the Good Friday agreement.

The Good Friday agreement has been bandied about this House and on the airwaves over the past couple of weeks. I can tell Members that it is fragile and delicate. Even the Members from Northern Ireland who disagree with me will be able to agree with me on this point. We are in a very delicate and fragile place. Please do not mess with it. Please do not ride a coach and horses through it. There is no way, in my view, that we can hand power to Whitehall Ministers to make decisions over the heads of locally elected people in Northern Ireland and not upset that delicate, painstakingly negotiated balance. Nationalists, Unionists and others are working together in the common interest. Is it difficult? It is very difficult. Is it delicate? Yes, it absolutely is. Is it fragile? Well, we have had three years of no Government, so that should tell us all about the fragility of those institutions. We are not prepared to wreck or hinder that progress.

[Sammy Wilson]

I am amazed at the hon. Gentleman’s defence—[Interruption.] Yes, I am amazed at everything he is saying. First, he is quite happy not to have a trade deal with America—that will damage the economy of Northern Ireland—and now he is defending the Northern Ireland Assembly’s ability to make decisions about the economy of Northern Ireland, when this withdrawal agreement leaves 60% of the laws in Northern Ireland in the hands of Brussels. The Bill seeks at least to free us from Brussels’s ability to take what support we can give to our industry.

[Colum Eastwood]

This withdrawal agreement took a long time to negotiate. The British Government and this Prime Minister signed up to it, and it was called a fantastic deal. It was to protect us from a hard border in Ireland. We spent 30 years trying to get rid of hard borders and division and trying to bring people together to allow local people to work together to make decisions on behalf of local communities.

I cannot understand how anybody who is supposed to be a devolutionist and whose party is in government—even though the right hon. Gentleman is sometimes at odds with the leadership of his party—would want any Minister based in Whitehall to make decisions over the heads of the Democratic Unionist party, Sinn Féin, the Social Democratic and Labour party, the Alliance party or the Ulster Unionist party. This Bill would allow a Whitehall Minister to override the wishes and very strong views of people in Northern Ireland on issues such as fracking and water charges. Who wants to see that happen in our devolved areas?

More than any policy risk, the Bill creates even more instability in our system, and we cannot afford that. Just look at what has happened over the past number of years. Alongside the attack on the protocol and the risk of a hard border in Ireland, the Bill rides a coach and horses through the Good Friday agreement in so many ways. If this Government, as they profess, support the Good Friday agreement and devolution and want local people to work together, spilling their sweat and not their blood, to bring about economic progress and change how society works, they will take away the risk of the Bill, because causes 46 and 47 would override, undercut and undermine all that progress.