Referendum on Scottish Independence

Ross Thomson Excerpts

Monday 13th November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Martyn Day]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that very strong point. A substantial White Paper was produced on the 2014 referendum.

Before the last round of interventions, I was talking about EU membership. The point that I want to make is that independence for Scotland does not depend on Brexit, but Brexit clearly shows us what can happen when we do not control our own future. I remember that during the referendum campaign, Cameron, the Prime Minister at the time, told us that a no vote was

“not for the status quo”,

while the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) told us:

“A No vote will mean faster, better change.”

Where are we now?

That brings me on to the vow by the three Westminster leaders, who promised us extensive new powers for the Scottish Parliament. Sadly, those promises have been broken and all but forgotten about.

[Ross Thomson (Aberdeen South) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman talks about promises made during the campaign. Would he like to explain what happened to the second oil boom that John Swinney promised during that campaign?

[Martyn Day]

We hear fear stories about oil at different times. In my political career, which spanned 16 years as a councillor before I was elected to Parliament, oil has been one of the Brigadoons of Scottish politics. It is always running out or a burden to us when there is an election, and there are always new finds and windfalls afterwards.

The point that I wanted to make is that choice must always be informed. I try to be fair and balanced, and I hope that everyone here agrees that I am trying to open the debate in an even-handed manner. If I have one criticism of the 2014 referendum campaign, it is that the yes side, in which I participated—I am as much to blame for this as anyone—often projected a message of “change but no change”, while the no side clearly did the opposite, projecting a message of “no change but change”. Far from settling the issue, that left us with what became an emphatic “not yet” holding position, which combined with the failure of the winning side to respect the terms of their own mandate leaves us where we are today.

We were assured that a no vote would result in a union of equals, the closest possible thing to federalism and a guarantee that we would stay in the EU. By contrast, I and people like me on the pro-independence side respected the decision, and we did not plan even to consider having another referendum on such a short timescale, but circumstances change. [Interruption.] Circumstances change. Perhaps if the Government had delivered on the promises made during the referendum this situation would not have emerged.

Perhaps both petitions have been overtaken by events. Both predate the 2017 snap election, which provided the public with a political opportunity to express their democratic views on this and other issues, the result in Scotland being yet another win for the SNP and the pro-independence movement. As I said earlier, with 35 seats, we have a majority in this House from the Scottish electorate. We were elected on a clear pledge— I will quote it to remove any confusion—that

“any continued Tory attempts to block the people of Scotland having a choice on their future—when the time is right and the options are clear—would be democratically unsustainable.”

I have seen nothing to change my mind about that as we head towards a Brexit cliff edge.

It will not have escaped anyone’s notice that we have had a number of referendums recently, including the 2014 Scottish independence one. Indeed, I have witnessed 12 referendums across the UK in my lifetime, half of which directly affected Scotland and four of which I was eligible to take part in—and I did so fully in each case. As hon. Members will no doubt be aware, all 12 referendums were of a constitutional nature of some sort, and there is a clear pattern that major UK and devolved nation constitutional issues are now determined in that way.

That leads me to the question of process: is a referendum the correct method to decide on Scottish independence? If we believe in democracy, there are logically only two routes by which we can make such a decision: the parliamentary route or by public plebiscite. The debate has moved on considerably in my lifetime from the days when we took the view that having a simple majority of SNP MPs at Westminster was the route to negotiate for independence. Even Thatcher accepted that route, and her successor Major made the point that no nation could be

“held irrevocably in a union against its will”.

How do we express that will?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Paul Sweeney (Glasgow North East) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. I will keep my remarks brief so that progress can be made in the debate. I just want to offer a few reflections on my experience of the last Scottish independence referendum and on the era in which I grew up.

As a relatively young Member of Parliament, I came of age politically in the era of devolution. I remember the great spirit of optimism when the Scottish Parliament was founded, just as I was moving from primary school into secondary school. In that referendum, 75% of Scots who participated had endorsed the creation of a Scottish Parliament with clear delineation of powers: what it would mean, what it would do, and what effects and opportunities it could have. That was a great moment. I felt it when I went to school—the celebration, the poetry and the civic engagement of that event stays with me to this day. That was a great moment in the history of our country. It could not have been in starker contrast to my personal experience—I think it is a valid comment—of the independence referendum campaign that culminated in 2014. I would like to say that my fundamental reflection on that—I think it is a sentiment we all share—is that a fervent, patriotic Scot was just as likely to favour the continuation of the United Kingdom as the creation of an independent Scotland.

We all ought to share the sentiment that, regardless of our views on the constitution, we share a burning ambition and desire for our communities, cities and country to realise their best interests; Regardless of what we think the optimum outcome is, we should all respect that ambition as a civic basis for the discourse. I feel that while that was upheld in the creation of the Scottish Parliament and the process of devolution that followed from that, the Scottish independence referendum somewhat lost that ecumenical spirit of civic engagement. It became rather hot-headed. One side sought to monopolise the idea of legitimate Scottish identity and I felt that was deeply unsatisfactory.

I was elected as a Member of Parliament in the most recent election having favoured the maintenance of the United Kingdom, but in a constituency—Glasgow North East—which voted 57% for independence. That led me to reflect on why that was case. Why did the people of Glasgow North East—indeed, the majority of Glaswegians—feel that independence was the way forward for them? My feeling is that it relates to the context in which the independence referendum took place. A feeling of alienation was the primary driver of why they felt that the only way out, the only way to improve their lives, was through independence.

I felt that the arguments made during the Scottish independence referendum on the no side were hamstrung by the fact that it had to bring Tory arguments into the agenda, which unfortunately meant that in many cases we could not make a positive socialist and social democratic case to stay in the United Kingdom. I feel that was a great handicap through that referendum campaign. On reflection, I feel that that is why many people, particularly in Glasgow North East, felt that the United Kingdom no longer served their interests and that the only way to improve their lives, having no real stake in improving the country, was to vote for independence. I think that was a great mistake and a wrong assessment.

The referendum happened in the context of a Tory Government bent on a programme of austerity that was materially destroying and depleting the lives of the poorest in society. In that context, people felt there was no way out—they were trapped in a Tory monopoly on power and Government. We were not strong enough as a Labour movement at that time to convince those people that there was still something to fight for in the United Kingdom. I believe that is where we have seen the great change—where I was lucky enough to be offered the opportunity to be a Member of Parliament. We finally realised that there was a credible future in a Labour movement that binds together the United Kingdom, that offers not simply an intractable, unreformable status quo, represented by the Tory party, or the simplistic idea that independence would be a panacea for those solutions as well.

[Ross Thomson]

I am really grateful to the hon. Gentleman for taking my intervention. Let us be clear: during this independence referendum the right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) was absent because he was too busy in London to participate. After that referendum we all saw that front page of Kezia Dugdale in her astronaut outfit, because she was one small step away from backing independence. Labour is going through its annual leadership election and still, during that election campaign, which we know some hon. Members here believe is a stitch-up, there is still no commitment to the Union. Is it not clear that Labour has turned its back on the Union and only the Tories stand up for it?

[Mr Sweeney]

I reject that assertion. The very thing that continues to rend the fabric of the Union is intractable and stupid Toryism, which refuses to do anything to reform the United Kingdom and move it towards the solution that the people of Scotland actually want—intractable towards nationalism, even though it was rejected in the referendum.

The binary nature of that referendum is what truly disrupted the civic discourse in Scotland. Having a yes or no position offered a simplistic answer to a very complex question. That was what was so unsatisfactory about it. I was one of those people who at the early stages of that referendum favoured a third option. That would have opened up the debate in Scotland to a more nuanced discussion about the process of devolution, which, as we recall, Donald Dewar called a process, not an event. The Parliament’s creation was the opportunity to achieve greater ends, but not an end in itself. Having that third question would have offered that opportunity.

Labour is approaching this discussion with a view to how we can improve and build the resilience of the United Kingdom for a better future for all citizens, including those in Scotland. That is not about, for example, where something happens to lie on the piece of rock that is the United Kingdom. It is actually about class identity.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ross Thomson (Aberdeen South) (Con)]

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. This has been a lively debate and I look forward to adding to the liveliness.

Just hours after the European Union referendum last year and as the result was coming in—in fact, before all the votes had even been counted and before anyone had time to contemplate and reflect on what was an extraordinary result—Scotland’s First Minister was immediately on our television screens, seizing her opportunity to crowbar Scottish independence back on to the political agenda after the people of Scotland overwhelmingly rejected it in 2014. However, that was no surprise, as the First Minister has made clear, in her own words, that her pursuit of independence “transcends” all else. It transcends Brexit; it transcends national wealth; it transcends the opportunity of the next generation to get a quality education; it transcends health; it transcends transport; it transcends the environment; and it transcends everything else.

Since that day, bathed in the media limelight in Bute House, it has become crystal clear that in fact the SNP has overplayed its hand on Brexit and a second independence referendum. The opinion polls show that the Scottish people are the biggest barrier to a second referendum, because they simply do not want one. Since 2014, support for independence has crumbled. The question of independence has been polled more than 70 times, as my hon. Friend the Member for Angus (Kirstene Hair) mentioned earlier. Since 2014, and consistently, no to independence has been in the lead in the polls, with an average of more than eight points.

I will touch on something that has also been mentioned during this debate and that I hear quite often from those who support independence when they look back at the referendum, in some ways through rose-tinted glasses. I accept that the referendum heightened engagement; some of the best examples of engagement happened during it, particularly in our school halls, where the younger generation were so engaged that some of the best questions and the best challenge came from them. It was also good to see such a high turnout.

[Alan Brown]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it was a mistake for the Scottish Conservatives to oppose 16 and 17-year-olds getting the vote in the referendum?

[Ross Thomson]

Scottish Conservatives actually advocate that those who are 16 or 17 should have the right to vote in elections and future referendums, and that is our party policy.

There was another element of that referendum campaign, which was how nasty and divisive it became. We have heard from other Members about some of their own experiences. As for me, my mother was chased down the road by an activist who was ripping down Better Together signs displayed in fields neighbouring our home; I saw war memorials in Aberdeen desecrated; I saw activists who were campaigning with us on our street stalls being intimidated and spat on; and let us not mention Twitter, which since the referendum has still been polarising, divisive and full of vile nastiness that we should all condemn and that should not be part of our discourse here in the UK. Unfortunately, a poison pervades our politics in Scotland following that referendum. It is still absolutely there and we all have a duty to try to stamp it out.

During the 2014 referendum, page 210 of the White Paper, which has been mentioned by other Members, stated that

“if we remain part of the UK, a referendum on future British membership of the EU could see Scotland taken out of the EU against the wishes of the people of Scotland”.

Despite that being in the White Paper, and despite all Scots knowing it, Scots voted overwhelmingly to remain in the UK and subsequently, in another referendum, the UK voted to leave the EU. Following the logic of the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day), who articulated the benefits of a majority in referendums, we should respect the results of referendums whether we agree with them or not, and those results are that Scotland stays in the UK and the UK leaves the EU.

The First Minister seized on the votes of remain/no voters, hailing them as a justification for another referendum. In fact, that rush to divide the UK only served to alienate those remain/no voters. Furthermore, the SNP attempted simply to dismiss the votes of 1 million Scottish leave voters, including 400,000 of their own voters and MSPs such as Alex Neil, who is no longer a bashful Brexiteer; I wish some of his colleagues would join him, because we know they are there.

That left those voters voiceless and the anger among them is quite palpable, which we saw reflected in the general election result, because in the snap election that followed the EU referendum, and with the prospect of indyref2 hanging over the heads of Scottish voters, the SNP lost almost half a million of its votes and 21 of its seats, clinging on by the skin of its teeth in Perth and North Perthshire, and North East Fife. Notably, Angus Robertson and Alex Salmond are gone, both having lost their seats.

The Scottish people were repeatedly promised in 2014 that the referendum was “once in a generation”, and we have also heard the words, “once in a lifetime”. The people of Scotland seized on the snap general election to send Nicola Sturgeon a clear message—take a second independence referendum off the table for good. I have pondered what exactly Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond meant by that “once in a generation” phrase— that “once in a generation” billboard and media opportunity—but we all now know that it amounts to a mere 907 days. That is the 907 days between 18 September 2014 and 13 March 2017, when Nicola Sturgeon confirmed that she would seek to hold a second independence referendum in the autumn of 2018.

The SNP attempt to use Brexit to increase support for independence, but that strategy is clearly flawed, because at the end of the day none of the challenges raised by Brexit and none of the questions posed by Brexit are ever answered by tearing Scotland out of the UK, its most important single market.