Local Government Finance Bill (Ninth sitting)

Debate between Rob Marris and Jim McMahon

Tuesday 21st February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Jim McMahon]

I absolutely agree with that point, not simply because what my hon. Friend refers to would be helpful—in fact, essential—to support the implementation of BIDs on the ground, but because it would help local authorities in a wider sense. Many local authorities have empty buildings in their areas, and tracking down the property owner can be very difficult. There may be health and safety issues or vandalism, antisocial behaviour or other illegal activity taking place. Finding out who the property owner is in those cases can be extremely difficult. Having a register that makes sense, whereby the owner is easily identifiable, would be important for what we are discussing, but it would also be beneficial for local authorities in a wider sense.

The levy that has been proposed evidently makes sense. This is more of a tidying-up exercise than a groundbreaking initiative, but sometimes tidying up is as important as breaking ground, so on that basis we perhaps should reflect. However, the Government could perhaps do slightly more to assist in the development of BIDs. I think that there is cross-party agreement that the way BIDs can be developed, not just in being able to generate the money but in the process by which local authorities and the business community have to develop a prospectus to get local support and win the vote on the day, is actually quite empowering. I am talking about getting that sense of ownership at local level and of being able actually to do something.

We find that, in many areas, people are looking at their town and city centres declining and asking, “What can we do about this?” It is happening because of the supermarkets and online retailing. It is almost being done to people, as opposed to their being able to get a grip themselves and have that shared vision. I see this route as one way whereby people can assert their own responsibility for taking control, and of course the way businesses can really get a grip of how the money is spent is quite important.

Of course, the money is ring-fenced, so when the prospectus is given to local businesses—local landlords as it will be—the money cannot be used by the local authority for any purpose other than improving the circumstances within that business improvement district. However, how that money is used in the business improvement district can be quite imaginative and flexible. It could be used to attract new visitors or provide events and activities. We have seen areas that pay to have their Christmas lights switched on, fireworks displays, Christmas markets or summer and Easter activities, and others that install CCTV or provide car parks to create a pleasant place for visitors.

The evidence shows that such measures increase footfall, and that people reflect afterwards that they ought to be supported. It would be helpful if the Government—not today, but at some point in future—outlined, perhaps in a letter to our team, what they intend to do to actively promote the further expansion of BIDs across the country, and their assessment of what the total impact of the business rate revaluation might be for the uptake in business improvement districts.

[Rob Marris (Wolverhampton South West) (Lab)]

May I take this opportunity to thank the Minister for the courtesy of his letter to me following our discussions? It was on a different matter from the one that my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton spoke about. The Minister wrote to me to clarify the relief for telecommunications infrastructure.

On clause 37 and schedule 5, page 51 of the helpful Library briefing reminds us that under the Business Rate Supplements (Rateable Value Condition) (England) Regulations 2009, with which the Minister will be intimately familiar, properties with a rateable value of less than £50,000, or £55,000 for Crossrail, are exempt from business rate supplements. I had a discussion yesterday with the Federation of Small Businesses, which was helpfully attended by the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton, because he and I like to do consensual things. I understand the FSB’s approach in saying that when levies of this kind proliferate—one such levy is in clause 37 and schedule 5; another is in clause 38, which I know we have not yet discussed—it is difficult for businesses, and a common floor of £50,000 that could be read across would be helpful. I hope that the Minister will feel able to comment on that.

The Chancellor has trumpeted the change in small business rate relief, which the Opposition support, so that another 600,000 small businesses will not have to pay business rates. However, we risk a proliferation of different benchmarks, floors or ceilings—call them what you will. The landscape is made much more complex by the Bill. I have some background in small business, although the Minister has a lot more. A schedule such as schedule 5, which runs to 11 pages, is bad enough in terms of complexity, but it gets a whole lot worse.

Schedule 5 will amend the Local Government Act 2003 and introduce alphabetised sections after section 59. I will refer to them as they are numbered in schedule 5. New section 59B allows the Secretary of State to make regulations. New section 59E allows the Secretary of State to make regulations. New section 59F allows the Secretary of State to make regulations. New section 59G allows the Secretary of State to make regulations. New section 59H allows the Secretary of State to make regulations. New section 59I allows the Secretary of State to make regulations. New section 59M allows the Secretary of State to make regulations. New section 59O allows the Secretary of State to make regulations. New section 59P allows the Secretary of State to make regulations. New section 59Q allows the Secretary of State to make regulations.

I say to the Minister that this 11-page schedule to the Bill effectively adds to the tax regime, when “Tolley’s Tax Guide” has grown in the last seven years from 1,000 to 1,500 pages in round terms. Here we have, albeit not in a Finance Act, another 11 pages of legislation in schedule 5, and then—get this—10 sets of regulations within that 11-page schedule. How are businesses supposed to get on with the business of making money and adding to prosperity, which we all want, when faced with a tsunami of red tape?

Local Government Finance Bill (Tenth sitting)

Debate between Rob Marris and Jim McMahon

Tuesday 21st February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Jones]

The distribution of resources and the assessment of the relative needs of local government is an essential feature of the local government finance system, but those elements do not require legislation to determine them. However, I thank Labour Members for providing me with the opportunity to outline the work we are doing in that area.

Before doing so, I would say that I have heard what has been said, particularly by the hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton. It was unclear whether the commission would be there to simply divide the money available at the time between local authorities, or whether there is a role for it to determine the total money available and national policy on council tax. Were it the latter, it is important to set out that those issues have been determined for many years by central Government. Successive Governments, including Conservative Governments, the coalition Government of Liberal Democrats and Conservatives, and Labour Governments, have held to those principles.

In regard to the work already under way, we announced the fair funding review last year, which was universally welcomed by the local government sector. The review is conducting a thorough examination of what a relative needs assessment formula should be in a world where local government spending is funded by local government resources and not central grant. The findings of that review will set the initial baseline for the 100% business rate retention system.

From the start, we have recognised the essential role that local government has to play in shaping those reforms. That is why we have been working collaboratively with the Local Government Association, which is responsible for representing a broad range of views held by different sections of local government and their member authorities. That effective working relationship has already seen the establishment of a steering group supported by a number of technical working groups, which my officials co-chair with colleagues from the Local Government Association. That gives local experts a unique opportunity to help shape the review, and all the work of those groups is available online, adding real transparency to the progress of the review.

The process for assessing the relative needs of local government is well precedented and was, of course, followed by the Opposition when Labour was in power. Our collaborative and transparent approach represents a significant improvement on that process. In the summer, we published a call for evidence that set out key questions that the review will address. The Secretary of State has confirmed that he will report back to the House on the progress of that review.

Creating a new commission to consider needs assessment and new burdens, as these new clauses would do, blurs accountability for that important work and would add another significant layer of unnecessary bureaucracy, over-complicating the process for assessing the relative needs of local government. It is important to point out that it would undoubtedly lead to a situation where it simply costs the taxpayer more money.

Our proposals offer a better guarantee of a transparent process, supported by the best available advice from local government and elsewhere. On that basis, I ask the Opposition not to press the new clause.

[Jim McMahon]

Thank you, Sir David, for the opportunity to respond to the Minister. I cannot understand why the Government are so reluctant to accept these measures. Of all the changes in the Bill, some are extremely minor and it would not require legislation for the Government just to get on and make them. Their argument is that they have put them in the Bill to give clarity and to ensure that there is a clearly understood framework in place. If they were to establish an independent body to look at a needs-based assessment, potentially with redistribution, it would be right for it to form part of the same transparent framework that has been proposed for far more minor changes.

[Rob Marris]

Will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating the Minister on decrying the amendments with a straight face, claiming that they would add another layer of bureaucracy, when he has introduced a Bill that will bring in at least 12 sets of new regulations?

[Jim McMahon]

I absolutely share that point. There are 12 sets of regulations and something like 56 new powers for the Secretary of State. We are not seeing a loosening of what binds the hands of local government; it is much more a tightening. I do not think that that will be well received.

The main thing is how we move forward. There is so much uncertainty now, not just with the amount of demand in the system for public services. We have seen the social care demand, but there will also be child safeguarding and educational attainment demands and mental health and disability support pressures very soon. That is notwithstanding all the other 700 services that local authorities deliver on a daily basis to support our residents.

We are seeing a genuine crisis in public services in many parts of our country. Some have been more protected than others and some have been more affected than others, but there will be an impact across almost every community in the country. Either the Government are lining up to continue to ignore the scale of that problem and what it means to individuals, families and communities—following a similar pattern of behaviour to that which we have seen under the coalition and the current Governments—or they genuinely want to get a grip and put in place a more sustainable system that would prevent such shocks to local public services. If local government is saying that, through an independently commissioned report that has been agreed by every party political party—including the Conservative party—on the Local Government Association, I cannot understand for the life of me why the Government do not just take that with both hands and run with it. At the moment, their defence seems to be, “That would cost money. It would cost money to have this independent system in place.”

Let us be clear about what the role of that independent body would be. It would be there to assess the need in each area against some objective criteria that would be agreed with central and local government. The Government have said they are going to do that anyway, so let us put that to one side; it will happen whether this body exists or not.

We then talk about redistribution. We know how much money will be required, because a thorough and in-depth review would have taken place. We then need to understand how much money we have and how much we distribute to meet the demand that has now been identified. What Government would not want the ability to say, “This is an independent recommendation”? It would be a gift. We know that they are fearful of scrutiny. We have seen that in the decision that the annual financial settlement will not come to Parliament in the future—they do not want that parliamentary debate. But this gives them a gift to say, “This is not the Government’s saying this; this is an independent body that has worked in consultation with local government.”

Where we are going and what the end looks like is extremely unclear. We have been promised an independent assessment of need. We do not know the criteria, the timescale, the membership or the status. We do not know whether it will be inside or outside the Government or completely independent. Will it sit within local government? We do not know the detail of any of that. We do not know what the new business rate devolution will be. We do not even know which different schemes have been negotiated in each of the pilot authorities, let alone the sweetheart deal that has been agreed with Surrey, which is the only single authority negotiated business rate retention pilot in the country—I am sure the Minister will say whether this is right or wrong. All the rest have been done through a devolution deal through their combined authority arrangements or the imposition of directly elected Mayors. Surrey is being treated in a very special way—a way that other local authorities are not. The Government cannot craft a special sweetheart deal for everybody. At some point, we have to accept that the quantum of money is a quantum of money and we have to teem and ladle.

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[Jim McMahon]

You have to earn the perks that come with the job. I am not going to give way. We need to make progress. I am happy to receive a letter from the Minister if he feels it is necessary to justify his position. What is most important is not to conflate a number of different points that have been made that are legitimate and stand on their own two feet—they are not one and the same thing. There is a world of difference between establishing an independent financial commission to understand the need in each area for public services and then to advise back to the Government what that assessed need should be. Government may well say as part of the remit of that review that there is a quantum of money that is limited and within the criteria that are set, they may well seek advice from the independent body on how to teem and ladle within that quantum. There has been no suggestion that the independent body would take away the right of the Treasury to determine how taxation is generated and spent in the country. It is very clear if the Minister reads the new clauses and the new schedule that the remit is to advise Government.

[Rob Marris]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it would help the Minister, whether chauffeur-driven, well-paid or not, with all his officials, to do the Opposition the courtesy of reading new clause 3? If he reads new clause 3, it is entirely clear that the proposed commission would not usurp the power of the Secretary of State to decide on the grant.

[Jim McMahon]

That is absolutely right. I suppose that in some ways I took it for granted that the Minister would read the papers. Perhaps I should not have done that and I should have read it out line by line. What the new clause intends to do is very clear. I am a new Member so perhaps I am entitled to a degree of naivety— some other people do not have that excuse. We were so prescriptive because we did not want it to be conflated or confused, and we wanted it to be accepted as a constructive amendment on that basis. I hope that the Minister has read it. It is clear what it is intended to do and what it is not intended to do.

Local Government Finance Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Rob Marris and Jim McMahon

Thursday 9th February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Jim McMahon]

Much of what we are trying to do through these amendments is to tease out from the Minister what the Government are trying to achieve. Some elements of the Bill make complete sense and reflect what local government, the Communities and Local Government Committee and individual councils have been asking for, but other elements are less clear. We are trying to get to the bottom of what the Government are trying to achieve. That might convince us that this is absolutely the right thing to do and that we should get behind it.

[Rob Marris]

In terms of consistency and the situation envisaged, the Minister did not say in his intervention that, while the purpose of the provision is to get rid of using RPI, it does not specify what will take its place. Therefore, far from bills necessarily falling, a different indexation could result in them rising.

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[Jim McMahon]

I congratulate the Minister on living in a Labour council area. There are 22 million other people in the country living with Labour in control locally, and they get to experience at first hand the benefits of Labour being in government. The Minister should reflect on his fortunate circumstances. Let us hope that other parts of the country benefit from the same thing soon.

[Rob Marris]

I suspect that, with all due respect to my hon. Friend, he was not aware of that example from Nuneaton. Is he, however, as pleasantly surprised as I am that for the first time in debate on the Bill the Minister has actually produced some evidence?

[Jim McMahon]

The Minister has provided a certain insight. I would not quite call it evidence, because I have seen nothing produced; there has not been an assessment to back up that claim, as far as I can see. We need a higher bar on what we mean by evidence than the Minister jumping to his feet in a fit of excitement.

As we progress through the Bill and explore where the Government are trying to get to, I hope that the Government will take time to use the probing amendments to reflect. If they really want to achieve localism, if they really want local councils to take responsibility for growing their economic base and their tax base, we need to recognise that within any area there will be micro housing markets and micro business markets, where that local variation and local power to deploy in a very different way in the local authority area is critical to being able to grow the economy from the grassroots up. This is not about an aggressive attack just for attack’s sake; it is about a genuine deal, and the deal would always be that a local authority would say to the public, “We want to do this over here, and it would mean increasing business rates, but we would use that money to support this initiative over here.”

I genuinely believe that many people in this country are witnessing the decline of their town centres and high streets and are in tears, because that is a reflection, a symbol, of how the town is doing more generally. When people go into their town centre, which is the heart of the community, and they see windows boarded up and “To Let” boards where local shops used to thrive, they genuinely feel that part of their identity has been taken away. Our high streets are more symbolic than just a retail space; they are part of our cultural identity. I therefore hope that the Minister will reflect on our suggestions and that, if not during this phase, we may see some of them coming forward in the near future.

Local Government Finance Bill (Eighth sitting)

Debate between Rob Marris and Jim McMahon

Thursday 9th February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Rob Marris]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that clarification. I apologise to the Committee if I mis-expressed myself. I was not advocating one course or the other, because I believe in local control and localism, but on my reading, the amendments made by schedule 2 would allow that increase.

The Minister adverted to new paragraph 6B, which is to be inserted into schedule 7 to the 1988 Act; it starts at line 27 of page 44 of the Bill. Under new paragraph 6B(3), the Secretary of State can, as the Minister said, set a maximum. The Secretary of State spoke this morning about incentivising and stimulating, and about local authorities working hard and being flexible to attract business. He referred to tools to incentivise local growth, without, of course, producing any evidence relating to the incentives, or their prospects of success, but we have already been around the block several times on the subject of the lack of evidence, so I shall leave that.

However, while we are talking about localism, sub-paragraph (3) is another instance of a power being reserved, if not grabbed, by central Government—the power for the Secretary of State to set a maximum for a multiplier discount. That does not seem to me to bolster localism. Broadly speaking, if we go along with what the Minister says—with the idea that 100% retention of business rates and so on will incentivise local authorities to be even more pro-business, whatever the colour of the authority—we should let local authorities act accordingly and make what outside observers and indeed some residents may see as mistakes. That is what localism is about: letting local authorities take decisions and bear the consequences.

[Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)]

It is hard to think of a recent example, but perhaps the Government are trying to prevent a local authority from threatening to increase the rate to such an extent that there is local outcry, forcing the Government to do a back-room deal to resolve the issue.

[Rob Marris]

I cannot think that that could possibly happen in any county in England. However, I wonder whether specifying a maximum multiplier discount, which, as I understand it is, in lay terms, a floor below which a local authority must not go, is to do with a Government attempt to shore up local government finances. The present Government and their coalition predecessor nicked loads of money from local authorities, so local authorities without enough money might still be tempted, in a beggar-my-neighbour way, to use the powers provided generally, were it not for schedule 2, to set a multiplier discount at a very low rate.

Of course Government finances are in a complete mess, and the national debt has gone up nearly two thirds in the past six years. There are real problems with the Government finances. They are not under control, and that is reflected in local authority finances. Some local authorities might be tempted to take action that outside observers and the Secretary of State might regard as foolish. What, therefore, does the Secretary of State do? He reserves powers, under schedule 2, to set a maximum multiplier discount.

That goes against the grain of what the Government are professing to do in the Bill—bolstering localism, and giving local authorities non-evidenced incentives to be business-friendly. A local authority cannot get too business-friendly by setting out too much of a multiplier discount, because then the Secretary of State will say, “You cannot do that.” Again, there are contradictory messages. I do not say that nothing my party says is ever contradictory. On occasions it could be pointed out that things I or my colleagues have said are contradictory; that is the human condition. However, we are dealing with a Bill presented by a Government who talk about local control, and schedule 2 contains an example that shows them going in the opposite direction.

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[Jim McMahon]

The figures come from a BBC freedom of information request last year, which went to all main local authorities. The question was not how many toilets they maintained but how many were in their areas of responsibility, so perhaps that includes toilets run by other authorities such as parish, community and town councils. I cannot confirm that from the article.

[Rob Marris]

As I understand it, if the parish council or whatever is a billing authority, it will benefit from the clause.

[Jim McMahon]

The parish council will benefit from the clause. The question was whether the data on the number of public toilets included parish councils and I cannot confirm that. Notwithstanding that, it is hard to believe that all 1,700 toilets have been handed over to parish councils. I think we can assume that, given £31 million has been taken out of their provision, a significant number of public conveniences have been taken away.

Some local authorities have recognised the impact that has had on their communities and, although they have faced difficult budget restrictions, they have tried to step up and bring the community together to try to find local solutions. For instance, we know that a number of pubs, cafés, bars and restaurants acting as community toilet providers have been recognised with a small payment from their local authority. That is one way in which there has been some impact, particularly in areas of high footfall such as tourist areas, and my own local authority does that to a good standard. However, there is a world of difference between being able to spot a little sticker displayed in the window of a community toilet provider and the community knowing where to find established facilities.

The other thing is that a number of the conveniences were in isolated locations, such as country parks, and a number of those have closed, too. At the moment, 10 areas have no public toilets, including Newcastle, Merthyr Tydfil and Wandsworth. Given the coming budget cuts, I imagine that councils will have to reflect on whether they look after children who need safeguarding protection, take care of elderly people who need social care, or maintain their toilets. Even if local authorities have a rate reduction, those toilets still have maintenance, staffing and cleaning costs, and I suspect that a number of them will fall foul of the cuts. Although this is a step in the right direction, it does not feel like a holistic strategy for providing that public infrastructure in many areas.

Campaigning organisations have taken this issue on. The British Toilet Association does a lot of work on it. We sometimes dismiss this issue, and people laugh it off because it attracts a sense of humour, but the British Toilet Association makes the case for why these facilities are important. This is about not just the number of toilets, but the quality of provision. The association is leading the way in ensuring that there is a quality standard so that people who use public toilets are not put off by poor cleanliness, antisocial behaviour or poor maintenance—for example, lights that are out. It recognises good practice through its annual awards, which it hopes will drive up standards in the industry.

I ask the Government to at least have a conversation with the British Toilet Association to find out what more can be done to come up with a holistic strategy to deal with this issue and to ensure that we do not lose any more public conveniences. Worse, in a bid to try to retain them but save money, maintenance may be reduced to such an extent that they are not welcoming and people do not feel safe in them. As a result, they may become a venue for antisocial behaviour, and none of us wants to see that.

When talking about money and numbers, at times we miss the human cost. I could have spent 20 minutes making jokes, but we have to be serious about what these public services are there for. I want to reflect on a story from a part of Manchester that my mum lives in, which used to have public toilets and now no longer does. A man called Brian Dean, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, went out with his wife, Joan, and needed to use the toilet. The toilet they thought would be there was not—it had closed—and they could not find anywhere else to go, so unfortunately he wet himself. For that to happen to an adult who was ill was absolutely distressing for him and his wife, who was proud of her husband and had a sense of responsibility for getting him around. They said that it left them with a feeling of humiliation. We can talk about numbers and finance, and we can crack jokes, but there is a human cost. There is a reason why these conveniences are there in the first place. We have to think about how much we value this type of public service.

I am pleased to see this measure, but I think it exposes a wider issue about how local authority premises are treated in the ratings criteria. Education facilities such as an independent school, an academy or a free school outside the local authority attract the 80% mandatory business rates relief, but local authority schools do not. We see the same thing in the health service: health providers outside the public sector can attract the 80% mandatory relief, but Government health providers cannot.

We have seen this before. Even before this Bill was introduced, because of the rateable values involved, privately operated public conveniences were under the rateable value threshold and could claim exemption, but council-run facilities could not. There is a broader issue here about how the ratings assessment treats public and Government-owned buildings. We should ensure that there is a level playing field. We have debated that in relation to education facilities, health facilities and other public buildings. It strikes me that the Government have reflected and feel that these important public buildings need to be recognised in the legislation, and I am pleased. It has been a while coming; local authorities have been asking for this for some time, but it has not happened. A request was made, for instance, during the sustainable communities process, and it was not taken on board.

I recognise that we have a great deal of business to get through, so I will leave my remarks there. However, I did not want to let the issue pass without making it clear that however funny this may appear on the surface, it is actually quite important.

Local Government Finance Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Rob Marris and Jim McMahon

Tuesday 7th February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Jim McMahon]

I accept the point, but the Minister must accept that over the past two financial years, £170 million has been taken from revenue support grant top-slice. That money will need to be provided from somewhere, because at the moment there is a deficit in the levy account of something like £14 million. That shows more money is being drawn down from the account than is being added on top through revenue support grant top-slice or business rate levies from authorities that are exceeding their profiled business rates increases.

The Government cannot have it both ways. The money is either already within local government and is just being re-profiled, or it is coming from elsewhere within Government, in which case it will be a burden on other departmental budgets. We will come on to safety net payments later; this is simply the mechanism by which we make those payments. Either way, we will need group accounts. We have to account for the transfer of funds from one departmental account to local government. I do not intend to press the amendment to a vote; it was a probing one.

[Rob Marris]

The Minister’s response is disappointing. The amendment would retain the levy. He urges the Committee to reject the amendment and to abolish the levy because, according to him, it is acting as a disincentive to growth. When I asked him for evidence of that at the evidence session, he could not produce any.

I am open to persuasion, but—call me old-fashioned—I like a bit of evidence. When I asked the Minister today what Maidenhead has done well to be in a position where it pays a 50% levy, he could produce no evidence. Since Monday last week, he has had his officials available to produce some evidence. However, he has produced no evidence for his assertion that a measure such as the abolition of the levy will incentivise councils more than they are incentivised already to grow the businesses in their areas, thereby increasing business rates revenue.

Therefore, I am driven to the conclusion—I hope the Minister can dissuade me of this—that his arguments are totally hollow and mere assertions backed up not with evidence, but merely with a hope that the changes promulgated by the Bill, including the abolition of the levy, will produce the intended effects. In the absence of evidence, I find that singularly unconvincing.

[Jim McMahon]

I agree with my hon. Friend that the evidence base was not provided in our evidence session. We have asked for written evidence, but it has not been forthcoming. It is difficult to scrutinise, given the throwaway comments that have been made.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

During the opportunities to challenge and ask questions of the witnesses, did any Opposition Member ask that question of them?

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[Rob Marris]

In that case, the Minister should not have introduced the Bill at this stage or until he has got his ducks lined up.

[Jim McMahon]

You have been extremely patient with us, Sir David. We have got to a position where there is agreement, in principle, on a safety net.

We have a sense of what the pilots would bring in terms of 95% baseline protection. However, I challenge the idea of pointing to any pilot and giving the impression it could be rolled out as a national scheme. We know that any pilot can be made to work with the right energy and finance behind it, but having a safety net of that order without new money in place would be very difficult. I would like to see the figures on that, to test what it would mean in practice. When the last review took place and we were looking at a 7.5% threshold, it was very difficult to make a national scheme stand up in a way that encouraged growth and allowed areas to keep an element of what they were developing through their efforts, and that brought money back into a central pot.

We still unfortunately do not have sight of what the finances mean overall, but we have a flavour of what the pilots mean. We have been told that the measure will not be a new burden, but will be accommodated for within local government spend. We know that the only real room is in either the grants given to local authorities or the business rates and the £12.5 billion that has been referred to.

As we have heard, there is a great call on what feels like an ever diminishing resource. We talked about the £7.4 billion revenue support grant that will need to be accommodated. We talked about the £65 million rural services delivery grant, the £3 billion public health grant, the £105 million improved better care fund, the £177 million independent living fund and the £3.4 billion early years grant that will need to be accommodated—not to mention the £3.2 billion of business rates relief payments currently within the system. We still have not had clarity.

Excluding the relief payments, just those grant payments, which could well be deleted as part of full business rates retention, are £14.7 billion. Only £12.5 billion is going back into the pot. If there is going to be a safety net, where will the money come from? A bit more information on that would be extremely useful for us to give proper scrutiny and hold the Government to account. These were probing amendments. We made a bit of progress, although not as much as we would have liked. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

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[Rob Marris]

Looking again at the helpful Library brief, it appears that the Government are dragging their feet again. As the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton no doubt remembers, the Communities and Local Government Committee reported on this issue in June 2016 and found—I have to say I found this figure staggering—that 33% of the rateable value in Sheffield, 40% in the City of London and 34% in Westminster is under appeal. That is a huge amount. For 33% of the rateable value of the city of Sheffield, which I think is the fourth largest city in England, to be under appeal is extraordinary.

On 19 December last year, the Minister in the House of Lords said that the Government are looking at this again, but, as the Library brief pointed out on 19 January, although the Government are looking at the appeal system, it is not yet known how that it going to be done. Here we are seven months after a Select Committee report that highlighted that this is a big problem, and the Government are still faffing around and cannot make up their mind about what they are going to do and what they are going to propose.

I hope that the Minister will stand up and say that I have misunderstood and say, “There is clarity. We know where we are going and what regulations we are going to propose, so we are going to do what lots of Ministers do and publish draft statutory instruments before the conclusion of Committee stage so Members can see where we are going.” But I fear, going by the Minister’s past performance in this Committee, that he is not going to stand up and say that, and that we are going to have continued procrastination and a lack of clarity from the Government about where they want to go in the light of having their much-vaunted flexibility, which I think does a disservice to the Committee.

[Jim McMahon]

I thank the Minister for his response. I hope we can have a mature, cross-party conversation about the fact that there is a need to modernise the system to take out some of the quirks and unfairnesses within it. If we can do that in a mature way, I am sure there is a will to work in the interests of local government.

On the matter of appeals by public bodies, this is not about taking away chartered surveyors’ power to do the job they are employed to do. It is more about the fact that a number of the appeals are not about the individual circumstances of a particular premise in a particular location, but are more about the principle of whether certain premises should be on the ratings list or attract mandatory relief in the first place. For instance, we talk about having a level playing field for everybody, but schools that are not run by a local authority are automatically entitled to 80% mandatory rate relief, while local authority schools are not. A number of the appeals are going through on that basis.

It is the same with healthcare providers. Healthcare providers outside Government attract 80% mandatory relief, but Government departments, such as hospitals, pay full rates. The appeals that are going through at the moment for NHS trusts are not about individual local circumstances, but about the principle of whether those providers should attract the 80% relief. I should confirm the figure—80 NHS trusts are currently appealing through a private agent. It would make more sense for the Government, rather than allowing that churn through the system, to decide whether or not that is in line with non-Government uses in, for example, health and education; this relates to an amendment that we will discuss later. If they did that, they would take out a significant number of public buildings that are currently clogging up the appeals system, which is already under a lot of pressure. We would save public money and keep money in the public sector. That seems to me, in a time of austerity, to be an efficient use of public service support and public money. Hopefully, we can have a proper conversation about that. In that sense, new clause 5 is a productive and constructive new clause.

I accept that new clause 6, on the backdating of appeals and the rateable value, would create a two-tier system. We would have a system whereby those with rateable values of less than £500,000 would have a more generous backdating provision than those with rateable values above £500,000. Nevertheless, we need to look at what that means in terms of the reserves that local authorities have to put in place.

The number of premises with a rateable value above £500,000 that are currently going through the process equates to £2.7 billion worth of appeals. In respect of appeals, a local authority has to take account of the fact that appeals may be successful, and because those businesses are such large ratepayers the authority cannot take the risk that it could with, say, a corner shop, where it could take up that slack within existing budgets. If a supermarket that pays £1 million a year could have its business rate bill halved through appeal, local authorities must accommodate that money within their reserves, to ensure that there is not an impact on public services.

As I say, £2.7 billion is caught up in that system for properties with a rateable value above £500,000, and that money should be spent on frontline services, and not held in ring-fenced reserve accounts by local authorities. Again, if there is a mature, constructive conversation to be had about how we could release some of that money back to the frontline in a different way, we have a responsibility, on behalf of the people who use public services, to have that conversation.

We have had a good debate and on that basis I will be happy not to press the two new clauses.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 2 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3

Designation of areas by pools of authorities

Local Government Finance Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Rob Marris and Jim McMahon

Thursday 2nd February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Jim McMahon]

I do not want play car parking top trumps, but I have to highlight Oldham Council’s decision to offer two hours of free parking in the town centre.

[Rob Marris]

Who was the leader there?

[Jim McMahon]

I could not possibly shine a light on my own career. One of the proposals in the Bill that we will question later—I hope that the hon. Member for North Swindon will support us—concerns local authorities that are not part of a mayoral arrangement. They will have the ability only to lower business rates, and not to increase them elsewhere to make up the cost. A lot of areas with stunted growth would not be able to afford to do that at all.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim McMahon]

I absolutely agree with the professional response. The problem is we do not have proper checks and balances and we do not have a system of tariffs and top-ups and a proper safety net that catches people when they fall. We hear that that will come, but we have not seen the detail. We are being asked to agree a framework that allows this Bill to go through without actually knowing what impact it will have on individual local authorities across the country. It is a fundamental consideration when passing law that one understands the impact that law will have. We do not mind making bad decisions, but we should not be making bad decisions without all the information.

We are in a situation where spending on adult social care has declined by £65 per person in the most deprived areas of this country, but has increased by £28 per person in the least deprived areas. I would not resent that increase if it meant people got the care they need, but I do resent the fact that people who live in deprived communities are not getting the same access to social care that people in more affluent parts of the country are. We are meant to be one nation. We hear that all the time in the Brexit debate; when the Scottish National party kicks off about what is happening in Scotland we all say, “We are meant to be one nation. We take a collective responsibility for our nation.” Let us have a collective responsibility for adult social care and make sure that everybody gets the support they need.

[Rob Marris]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the social care precept construct will exacerbate those differences? Areas such as those that he and I represent will, in absolute and per capita terms, not raise as much money through the social care precept as advantaged areas will. I agree with him—good luck to advantaged areas—but we want those services for people who live in a wonderful place like Wolverhampton or a great place like Oldham.

[Jim McMahon]

That is the crux of the issue. Does this Bill really address a financial system that is under pressure and probably at breaking point—we all accept that it is time to renew local government finance and put it on a strong footing—or does it just reinforce historic inequalities across the country? Unfortunately, without the detail that we have requested a number of times we just cannot make that assessment. However, we are being expected to support this because we believe in devolution and have heard the calls from councils to have more responsibility and direction over their lives.

Let us be clear what the levers of change actually are. The Secretary of State will still prescribe what council tax increase can take place. By the way, they are saying that they are not going to report to Parliament on what that will be in the future—a minor point—and we are not going to get a local government finance settlement reported to Parliament in the future.

Not only is there no parliamentary scrutiny of this new world, but councils have not got the levers of control to reflect on the number of bands in their area. They cannot change the number of bands; they cannot introduce intermediary bands; they cannot have smoother transitions. They cannot even revalue properties—the last revaluation took place 26 years ago. Why is that? Central Government duck it year after year, time after time, because they do not want the backlash they would get at local level. Our councils are cross-party, by the way. This is about the Government not wanting to take the flak from the public for putting up council tax. That could be managed at a local level. There have been calls for areas to take that responsibility through some of the devolution deals.

Nor is there any ability to change the scheme of discounts. Fallowfield in Manchester, for example—where there is a strong student population living not in halls of residence but in terraced streets—is almost a whole ward occupied by students who pay absolutely nothing in council tax. Ask Manchester City Council if it would like the freedom to reflect that.

Even if we do not introduce that measure as part of the revision of council tax, we could put the burden on to landlords. Rather than put it on council tax, we could quite easily make provision for that within the business rates Bill. One might say that landlords will just put it on the rent, but if they own a three-bedroom terraced house in Manchester they will probably get £110 a week. If they rent that house to students, however, they will probably get £60 per student per room, so they are already earning far more by renting to those students than by renting to a family. It is right that somebody pays for the headroom to provide the services to the local community.

This is not, however, about whether we prescribe at local level. My point is that we are putting a burden on council tax and on business rates. We say that we welcome leadership at a local level and local innovation, but we are not giving local authorities the levers to affect the council tax or business rate base in their areas in the way that they have asked for.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rob Marris]

With his brain like quicksilver, my hon. Friend was quicker than I was to pick up that. I cannot take credit for wheedling that out of the Minister—it was entirely serendipitous, in as much as it happened. It is, however, interesting that we have a little more clarity, I certainly agree there. I urge the Government to think again about subsection (3).

[Jim McMahon]

We have had a full and frank debate. We have just, only minutes ago, managed to glean more information—more in that second than we have had in hours of sitting or the evidence sessions about where the intention sits. Had the debate earlier been more honest and open, we could have dispensed with much of it today. Perhaps the Minister will be generous in the sharing of information, which he showed to be possible a few minutes ago.

Clearly, the reason the levy pool is not required is that the desire is for local government, not the Government, to administer the scheme. That would be in line with calls from local government, which has asked for an independent body to be established to look at redistribution formulas so as to ensure that is done in an independent way. That is something we are open to discussion about, provided there is a discussion to be had. I encourage the Minister in the spirit of openness to come forward with how that scheme will work in practice.

If there is an independent scheme, it would have potential and merit. We see that in the health service, where a separate and independent body is established to look at health funding and distribution. Something similar in local government potentially has merit, provided it has the freedoms. Whatever system is put in place also requires parliamentary scrutiny so that it can be held to account. A number of provisions in the Bill—the removal of the requirements to produce an annual statement of the funding formula and to bring forward the council tax increase cap—do not sit well with democrats because they reduce the possibility of proper parliamentary scrutiny.

The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton referenced a review that is being undertaken by the Communities and Local Government Committee. I have a great deal of time for the hon. Gentleman. He puts a lot of time into ensuring that such reviews are carried out in the right way. I give credit to him and his Committee for doing so. I hope he does not mind me saying, however, that he has provided a half-truth of the review—[Interruption.] Okay, he was 100% truthful about the truth he provided, but silent about the remainder of the recommendations in the report.

The review said, absolutely, that local government had been asking for freedoms and that there was broad support for 100% retention, but that some big and unanswered questions potentially undermined the success of the programme. That is what the report says. The interim report has been provided to the Government, and the response is being awaited. In particular the report talks about how volatile the situation could be if the system is brought forward, without proper scrutiny, while at the same time the revenue support grant is taken away. The Committee was clear at the time that removing the revenue support grant without the checks and balances in place carried inherent risk.

The report also made points about fairness, equality, distribution and what would be done for areas where the business rate base and take were low. The CLG Committee was, absolutely, in favour of retention, but a number of other truths were relevant to its recommendations and that context was needed to give a firmer view, so there is still a long way to go.