Refugees and Migrants (Search and Rescue Operation)

Richard Ottaway Excerpts

Thursday 30th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, and I commend him and members of his Committee for the focus they have attached to this issue. I know they have undertaken a number of visits to the region to see the situation for themselves. He is right to say that the solutions lie in north Africa, which is why I made a point about the need for focus and attention there. The mayor of Calais characterised the UK as the primary destination, but let us analyse where asylum applications are being made. The UK anticipates around 25,000 applications this year, but France anticipates around 65,000, Sweden around 80,000, and Germany more than 200,000. This is an issue for the whole EU, and it is important, as I have said, to continue to work together to find solutions.

[Sir Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

The flow of migrants across the Mediterranean is now more than just a trickle, and the Minister is right, as is the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), to say that the solution is to work on the causes of migration. I commend to the Minister the report by the Foreign Affairs Committee on instability in north and west Africa, and I put to him a question posed in that report that did not get a very clear answer: if a British warship finds a boatload of refugees in the middle of the Mediterranean, is the policy to escort it back to north Africa, or to usher it into a European port?

[James Brokenshire]

I thank my right hon. Friend for the work of the Foreign Affairs Committee in looking at the pressures in north Africa and across the region. We have a keen focus on and interest in the Committee’s reports and recommendations. On identifying and rescuing boats at sea, clearly if vessels are in the territorial waters of a particular country I would expect the normal rules of the sea to apply. That is why Frontex, with its mission to protect the security of the external European border, will focus on the 30-mile limit off the Italian coast.

Communications Data and Interception

Richard Ottaway Excerpts

Thursday 10th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

The right hon. Gentleman will have heard me indicate in my statement that legislation of the type proposed by the Government is necessary. Indeed, when he was in government prior to the 2010 election, the Government considered the future capabilities that were necessary. That issue needs to be addressed, and I stand by the draft Communications Data Bill that I published and that was considered by a Joint Committee. Future capabilities will be for the House and the Government to discuss after the election. Today, we are faced with the very real necessity to act now in order to maintain our capabilities; future capabilities will be part of the review and subsequent action.

[Sir Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

In my judgment, this legislation is essential if we are to protect our citizens from criminals and terrorists. The annulled directive required the retention of traffic and location data but not the content of the communications, and it was therefore different from lawful interception, which requires a warrant. Will the Home Secretary confirm that that principle remains unaltered?

[Mrs May]

I absolutely can. In the Bill we are addressing the two issues of communications data and lawful intercept, and I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for recognising and drawing a distinction between them. It is important that people understand that distinction. Access to lawful intercept will continue in the way that it always has—under warrant. One of the roles of the Home Secretary and, in some areas, the Foreign Secretary and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, is to sign warrants and to consider their necessity and proportionality. A great strength of our system is that those ultimate decisions are made by people who are democratically accountable.

UNHCR Syrian Refugees Programme

Richard Ottaway Excerpts

Wednesday 29th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

The scale of the human tragedy in Syria is horrendous. More than 130,000 are dead, including thousands of children; there are documented cases of torture and summary execution; about 9.5 million men, women and children are in need of humanitarian help; and 2.3 million refugees, half of them children, are spilling into neighbouring countries—Jordan, Turkey, Iraq and Lebanon. Those countries are absorbing 97% of the massive influx of refugees, and it is threatening their stability. Lebanon is on course to receive 1.6 million refugees by the end of this year, which, for that small country, is the equivalent of 20 million refugees coming to the United Kingdom. Terrorism is back in Iraq, which has witnessed a resurgence of al-Qaeda. The war in Syria is inflaming its own sectarian battles.

Every day in Syria, the death toll, the atrocities, and the numbers of displaced persons and refugees are climbing. Against that relentless backdrop, the UNHCR wants countries to take 30,000 Syrian refugees in addition to the current resettlement quotas. That is a drop in the ocean. The United Kingdom has taken more than 1,000 Syrian asylum seekers this year. We have committed ourselves to helping some of the most vulnerable Syrian refugees, and I welcome the Government’s announcement today, which confirmed that.

It is absolutely right for us not to commit ourselves to arbitrary numbers. A quota of 500, 1,000 or even 5,000 Syrian refugees may achieve much in humanitarian terms, but in overall terms it achieves very little, because it does not tackle the root cause of the problem. As the Home Secretary pointed out in her excellent speech, the only meaningful solution to the refugee crisis—the only way in which to secure a better future for countless innocent Syrians—is a political solution. The refugee crisis has to be considered as part of an overarching foreign policy, and not in isolation. Talks in Geneva this week show us how difficult a task that will be. There are about 1,200 different rebel groups in Syria who have no interest in negotiating. Our best hope of dialogue is of dialogue between Syria’s national coalition and the Government, but they will not talk face to face: self-interest is getting in the way.

With uncompromising preconditions being dished out on both sides, the scope of Geneva II is inevitably limited. Even the deal that was hammered out to aid trapped residents of the war-torn city of Homs now appears to be threatened. The rebel alliance on the ground has issued further demands which it says must be met before anyone can be evacuated. There is nothing new there—this is politics—but it is costing lives and livelihoods.

Whether we like it or not, political progress in Syria will never succeed without directly engaging the puppeteers of this war of attrition. If Iran and the Gulf states withdrew their cash and supplies of arms on the Syrian battlefield, refugees would have some prospect of a safe return. We must stop the supplies of deadly arms, and put pressure on the armed militias that are terrorising Syrian communities. The United States and Russia have discussed a ceasefire in Syria, and only a ceasefire will make the delivery of humanitarian aid to the besieged, rebel-held areas possible as the civil war intensifies. That has already happened in some parts of the country, but millions are still trapped and under siege, and beyond the reach of help.

We have our work cut out for us in trying to ensure that humanitarian aid reaches those who really need it. That may well mean allowing the regime to transport food and medical equipment to areas that it controls, no matter how unpalatable discussions with it may be. Better systems should be introduced to improve the conditions of refugees in camps: reports of domestic violence, sexual abuse and rape from camps on the border are sickening, and more needs to be done.

I am proud that the Government are leading by example. The United Kingdom is the world’s second largest bilateral aid donor, and British taxpayers’ money is providing food, shelter, water and medicine for hundreds of thousands of people. However, we should be urging other countries to carry their fair share of funding the effort in Syria. They should be contributing more to the humanitarian effort where the refugees need our help most. Given that there are more than 2 million of them now and that the number is expected to increase to 4 million in the coming year, calling on the UK to agree to a fixed number seriously misses the point.

Oral Answers to Questions

Richard Ottaway Excerpts

Monday 15th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is clear that, in about 95% of serious organised crime cases, and in virtually every terrorism investigation, the use of communications data has been extremely important. The structure that has been established is that communications providers themselves retain the information, and safeguards are in place for the requests that are made. It is precisely that structure that we are examining carefully to see how it can be strengthened to reflect changes in technology.

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

14. How much has been received under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 from those convicted of human trafficking in the last three years; how much has been paid out to victims of trafficking in compensation; and if she will make a statement.

[The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper)]

The Government are committed to fighting human trafficking, as my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary set out in an earlier answer. Over £2 million has been recovered from traffickers in the past three years. Victims can apply for criminal injuries compensation and the Government pay £3 million a year for support services for victims through our contract with the Salvation Army. The figures on compensation paid to trafficking victims are not collected centrally.

[Richard Ottaway]

As victims are usually without support of any kind once they have left Government-funded shelters, and the avenues for claiming compensation are extremely limited, would it not make sense to take the funds confiscated from traffickers and put them into a fund for the benefit of victims of abuse?

[Mr Harper]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I would say a couple of things. First, the Government think that the priority should be making it easier for victims to secure compensation from confiscated assets, and we are working with the Ministry of Justice and the Crown Prosecution Service to achieve that. Secondly, victims of trafficking who leave Government-funded support through our contract are helped appropriately, either to return to their home country to a safe environment where they will not be retrafficked or, if they claim asylum through the asylum system or if their immigration status allows, to remain in the United Kingdom.

2014 JHA Opt-out Decision

Richard Ottaway Excerpts

Monday 15th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

The Home Secretary’s motion is the right motion, introduced in the right way at the right time, although I am somewhat relieved by the Justice Secretary’s acceptance today of amendment (b). I am also relieved that the Foreign Affairs Committee does not seem to be involved in the consultation process, as we have a heavy programme between now and the end of October, and for the life of me I could not see how we would fit in another report.

Across Europe, there is a growing and widespread concern about the direction of Europe. Those who have the bad luck to live in the eurozone have little choice but to live with the mistakes made by their leaders. But those of us outside the eurozone have a golden chance in the next four years to mould an EU that keeps the benefits of the single market, but in rejecting ever-closer union allows us to shed the burdens and inefficiencies that we find so alien to our Anglo-Saxon identity.

Ironically, much of the resentment against the EU arises from judicial decisions of the European Court of Human Rights, which is outside the EU. I put on the record that the Home Secretary has my full support in reviewing membership of the human rights convention, which now seems to be getting an interpretation that could never, ever have been envisaged by its founders.

There is growing dissatisfaction with efforts to harmonise the EU justice systems, which should be focusing like a laser beam on fighting the international crime that swirls around us. We are right to be opting out of the justice and security chapter, and right to be prepared to renegotiate those parts where it is in our national interests to do so. I for one will be watching those negotiations with interest, as they could well be a pointer to the negotiation of a new settlement in 2015. The trick is to build alliances in the negotiations much as we did in the successful negotiation of the banking union agreement last December.

Turning to the European arrest warrant, like other Members who have spoken, I believe that it is right to retain our involvement in that process. As we debate the flaws or merits of the EAW, we do well to recall what promoted both it and the growth of non-EU extradition treaties in the first place: the growing threat of international terrorism. The EAW ensures that dangerous suspects who threaten our security or commit crimes on British soil are held to account by our jurisdiction. Its fundamental aim is to serve the national interest, and it has already been proven to do just that. We lose its effectiveness at our peril.

The EAW has enabled a faster, simpler and more cost-effective extradition process for convicted offenders and criminal suspects right across Europe, and the statistics back that up. Before the EAW was introduced in 2004, extradition took, on average, a year. Today that has been cut to an average of 48 days, or 16 days if the suspect agrees to surrender. Since the EAW was introduced the number of extraditions has increased significantly, and it continues to rise year on year. Since 2009 we have issued around 150 warrants each year so that people suspected of committing crimes on British soil can be brought to justice. The number of suspected criminals who have been extradited to European countries over the same period has risen from 772 to over 1,000, and that includes sex offenders, rapists and murderers.

Almost all those suspected criminals—this is the important point—are non-UK fugitives seeking to avoid justice in their own countries. Over the past four years there have been 4,005 extradition requests from EU member states, of which only 181 were for the extradition of UK nationals, which is fewer than 5%, so 95% of those applications were for foreign nationals. When the hon. Members for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) ask what will happen in the interim period and whether the other members will renegotiate, I must say that it is highly unlikely that they will forgo the opportunity to get those several thousand fugitives who are using this country for sanctuary.

[Steve McCabe]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is right and that those countries will have their reasons, but it is also highly unlikely that in those circumstances they would be terribly willing to entertain the changes to the European arrest warrant that some of his hon. Friends are seeking.

[Richard Ottaway]

My assessment is that most of the cases are so serious that the measures on triviality and proportionality will have no impact whatsoever, and I am quite confident that the other nations will agree. Indeed, they might look at their own position in order to have some sort of parallel agreement.

There are several high-profile extradition cases for which we have the EAW to thank. A number of Members have mentioned the bomber Hussain Osman, who plotted the unsuccessful 21/7 bombing attacks on the London underground. He was extradited back to the UK from Italy in less than eight weeks. Let us compare that with the Algerian Rashid Ramda, who had been granted refugee status. He was wanted in connection with a terrorist attack on the Paris metro in 1995 that killed and injured dozens of people. It took 10 years to extradite him from the United Kingdom to France. In the climate in which we operate, we need to react fast to terrorist threats.

In my book, the European arrest warrant is a victory for justice, for victims and for law-abiding citizens in the UK. Of course we must recognise its shortcomings, which need to be fixed, and I welcome the Government’s decision to address those in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill.

I applaud the Home Secretary’s resolve to seek to rejoin the European arrest warrant after opting out of all 133 EU law and order measures in the Lisbon treaty. I must confess that I am disappointed that her pragmatic strategy to help us fight EU-wide organised crime and terrorism has provoked so much controversy. She recognises that the EAW creates a more efficient, simpler, quicker, cheaper, more reliable and less political system of extradition. It increases the mutual trust between member states and their enforcement agencies.

Without the EAW, the victims of crime would get a poorer deal, as we would have to rely on the 1957 Council of Europe convention on extradition and bilateral agreements. They are inefficient, slow and expensive, and they, too, would suffer from all the faults identified in the European arrest warrant. They would result in fewer and slower extraditions, which would be worse for suspects and victims. We would return to the bad old days when British criminals could flee to European capitals and find safe haven. The chairman of the Bar Council, no less, has said that losing the European arrest warrant

“would directly threaten law and order in the UK.”

The chief executive of the Law Society has said that opting out

“could have significant negative implications for the administration of justice in the UK.”

To all those who are ideologically opposed to the EU project—I respect their positions—I say that this is not about losing our sovereignty to the EU. It is not advocating a closer political union with the EU. Under the EAW, unlike its predecessor, EU member states can no longer refuse to extradite their citizens on grounds of nationality. Extradition no longer requires a political decision for a suspect to be handed over. The European arrest warrant is not a political instrument; it is an instrument that works in the interests of justice and in our national interest, and if we fight and lose it, we will jeopardise the fight against serious cross-border crime. Let us not play politics with this very serious issue.

Oral Answers to Questions

Richard Ottaway Excerpts

Monday 10th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

I have to say to the hon. Lady that the Opposition have been calling for a statutory register of landlords for weeks, if not months, but it is something that, in 13 years in government, they did not bother to introduce.

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

5. What progress is being made on Operation Alice; and if she will make a statement.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Green)]

The Metropolitan police are conducting an investigation under the supervision of the Independent Police Complaints Commission. My hon. Friend will understand that there is nothing that I can add to that in Parliament without straying into the territory of a criminal IPCC investigation.

[Richard Ottaway]

We have a situation where police from the Met appear to have fabricated evidence against a Cabinet Minister; the Met Commissioner is put in charge of the investigation and admits to discussing the case with journalists; in breach of his own rules, he fails to keep a note of the discussion; and, six months later, we do not even have a report. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Commissioner has a lot of questions to answer?

[Damian Green]

I am as eager as my hon. Friend is to see justice done at the end of this episode, but I am sure that he will understand that the service of justice would not be improved by my providing a running commentary, from the Dispatch Box, on an ongoing criminal investigation.

Scrap Metal Dealers Bill

Richard Ottaway Excerpts

Friday 9th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Philip Davies]

It looks like lazy drafting to me. Certain things should be carried out by district councils and others by county councils. The point of legislation is to deem which is the most appropriate. I would venture, as my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch has done, that the matter should be dealt with by county councils, but we will see what others think.

Amendment 141 would be significant. With regard to mobile collectors, it would replace the term “regularly engages” with

“engages on more than 300 days in a calendar year”.

This gets at whether mobile collecting is somebody’s full-time occupation. The Bill states that the mobile collector must be regularly engaged in door-to-door sales to be registered, but what constitutes “regularly” is surely open to dispute. My amendment would make sense of that. Does the measure regularise the “Steptoe and Son” people who might be out there? I do not know what the Government and my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South mean by “regularly”, so some clarity on that would help.

Amendments 145 and 146 relate to the offence of recklessly making a statement after being requested to provide further evidence. It is one thing to have an offence of knowingly making a false statement, but adding the word “recklessly” gets us into dangerous territory. I am not entirely sure what the definition of “reckless” is in this regard. Perhaps the Minister could help, or perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, who is usually an expert in this field, could tell us what “recklessly” means. It would be best to leave the word out and leave it at “knowingly”.

That relates to my amendments in this group. I am not too happy with one or two others, and I intended to talk about those, but given that time is pressing and we have other matters to discuss, I will leave my comments there. I do so in the hope that the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South will accept that my amendments have been tabled in an attempt to help the Bill and provide the scrutiny that it deserves, so that we end up with legislation that we are all happy with—that is the whole point of the Report stage of a Bill.

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

I have to confess, having listened to my hon. Friends the Members for Christchurch (Mr Chope) and for Shipley (Philip Davies) for the past hour or two, that I have quite a lot of affection for both of them. The contribution that they make to scrutinising private Members’ Bills should not be ignored. To that extent, they do the House a service. I call them friends in the political sense, and in the opposition years we worked closely together on the 1922 Committee. I do not therefore dismiss their arguments lightly. But given that my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, in an interview with Materials Recycling World, said that he would not talk out the Bill, I do not want to do his job for him. I shall simply say that I support the new clause moved by the Minister, but I am not persuaded by the force of the arguments for the amendments tabled by my hon. Friends.

[Mr Jeremy Browne]

I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) for the brevity of his contribution. I will not match it entirely, but I will be brief. To a degree, I too commend my hon. Friends the Members for Christchurch (Mr Chope) and for Shipley (Philip Davies) on the rigour with which they scrutinise Government and non-Government legislation. I by no means wish to imply that that is an inappropriate role for them to play in the House, but this is a fairly uncontroversial Bill. It has been supported by all parties and there was a collegiate spirit in Committee, where we sought collectively to try to ensure that the Bill is as successful as possible. Some of the amendments tabled by my hon. Friends would not add to the Bill, and I shall give a couple of examples.

The question of whether it was appropriate to include the site manager in the relevant document was discussed at length. The Government have consulted on this issue with relevant authorities and it was felt appropriate to include the site manager, for reasons that Members will understand. The site manager is responsible for managing the site, and so ultimately what happens on the site is for him or her to oversee, so we regard him or her as an appropriate person.

My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley mentioned the period of 300 days for people who collect door to door. In earlier stages of the Bill, we were criticised for being arbitrary about figures, but we have sought to make the legislation workable in practice. It would be very hard to determine precisely which days a person was collecting and which they were not. I think most people would still regard that person as being a full-time metal collector, so we have sought to amend the Bill to work in practice, with the agreement of my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South.

My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley talked about 28 days’ notice and whether that was an appropriate amount of time. His amendment suggested three months. We do regard 28 days as appropriate, but one can argue for another number. We want the register to be up to date, both with the local authority and the Environment Agency, which is why we want notification of those who have ceased to trade. Therefore, 28 days strikes us as an appropriate figure.

Rather than going on at greater length, not least because my cough is making my voice momentarily fail, I will just say that, as I said at the beginning, the Government new clause and amendments strengthen the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South. The other amendments do not have that effect, so we urge the House to agree to the Government new clause and amendments and reject the others.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Ottaway]

I am afraid that I cannot offer much comfort to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) either. Although I support the Government’s new clause and their amendments, I am afraid that I am not persuaded by the amendments tabled by him and my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies).

[Mr Jeremy Browne]

I will engage briefly with the points raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Christchurch (Mr Chope).

My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley spoke to amendment 66 on financial penalties. Of course, we can always believe that such penalties should be higher or lower, but we believe that those in the Bill are proportionate. He also tabled amendment 73, on proper records, and amendment 74, on the requirement to keep paperwork for three years. A desire to regulate the industry effectively goes to the heart of the Bill. Obviously, we need scrap metal dealers to keep proper, orderly records; otherwise it is not possible for local authorities or the police to check that they are buying and selling the metal that they claim to be buying and selling. We cannot have a Bill in which there is no requirement to keep proper records, because that would mean that we would have to be satisfied with improper, sloppy or inadequate records instead. We are seeking to be consistent and to make the Bill sufficiently onerous in order for it to be effective.

In amendment 66, my hon. Friend seems to be concerned that the fines are too onerous. It is a difficult situation, because my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch thinks that the Government are too worried about punishing transgressors, whereas my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley seems to have adopted a whole new approach, namely that the Government’s attitude is overly tough and that they fine at a level that is, in his view, inappropriately high. We think that we have struck the right balance.

On amendment 132, I am reliably informed that most metal salvage operators are scrap metal dealers. We do not want two overlapping schemes. The way in which my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) has framed the Bill should reduce the regulatory burden on motor salvage operators.

There has been considerable discussion of what constitutes scrap metal and a scrap metal dealer. We are satisfied with the definition in the Bill. It does not specify every single item that could be construed as being scrap metal, but we think that the definition encompasses them, to the satisfaction of my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois). On the difference between old and used, as I understand it, if I have an old car that has reached the end of its life—this is the crucial point—it might be suitable to be turned into scrap metal. Under the definition provided by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, if I had bought a car yesterday and had driven it back from the showroom and it was then turned into scrap metal by someone on my behalf, it would also be regarded as scrap metal, but I think that most people would understand the distinction that it would not be old and, therefore, not scrap metal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies]

That does not need to be the case. The Government could set out their intention to bring forward a Bill that deals with the issues raised by the right hon. Gentleman, and we could at least give that proper scrutiny. We are heading towards a scenario in which legislation is rushed through without proper scrutiny. I would have thought that the shadow Minister would be in favour of making the Government return to the House and go through a proper legislative process, rather than simply rushing it through. Nothing of what I propose will prevent any of the provisions from being included in the Bill; I just want to ensure that they get proper consideration.

I thought that the ban on cash payments was ill-advised and extremely un-British. If somebody is breaking the law, the illegal part is the crime they are committing, not the method of payment they use. Somebody might go into a newsagent and steal newspapers, but it would be ridiculous to propose banning people from buying newspapers for cash. I do not see the logic; it is a totally un-British approach. There is nothing to stop the Government bringing this legislation back, but we must ensure that it receives proper consideration.

New clause 7 proposes that the Act shall expire within a year, which I think gives the Government plenty of opportunity to bring forward new legislation. If this matter is so important to the Government—they say that it is and I do not doubt that is true—a year is a perfectly long enough time for them to bring forward a proper Bill, including all the measures in this Bill, that can proceed through both Houses of Parliament.

[Richard Ottaway]

I am listening closely to my hon. Friend, and I confess that I agree that some sort of review would be appropriate. I disagree, however, with the assertion that the legislation is being rushed, as it seems to be taking an inordinate amount of time.

Perhaps I may assist my hon. Friend. If the Bill concludes all stages today, including Report and Third Reading, I would be prepared to recommend to the Government—and would seek to persuade them to introduce it in another place—an amendment to clause 15 which would provide for the review that my hon. Friend wants three years after section 1 comes into force. In addition, although new clause 7 provides for a sunset clause after one year, I would seek to persuade the Government to introduce in another place a sunset or expiry clause for five years after section 1 comes into force. I hope my hon. Friend will recognise that that balance would provide for the review he wants but allow the Act time to operate so that an accurate, worthy assessment and review can be made.

[Philip Davies]

I thank my hon. Friend for listening to my case and responding so positively. As it happens, amendment 116 would bring forward the review from five years to three years, and I have also tabled amendments to explore whether we could bring it forward to two years or one. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his helpful comments and suggestion, and although the expiry date he offers is not nearly as soon as I would wish, I accept the spirit in which it was offered and the principle behind it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Ottaway]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third Time.

I am grateful to the House for the progress we have made and I am optimistic that we will get a Third Reading in the time available. I have spent a lot of time on this Bill, and the more I have got into it, the more passionate I have become about it. Without it, the principal outlet for stolen metals will go unchecked. Without this Bill, the cash-in-hand, no-questions-asked culture at scrap metal yards, which allows criminals to shift stolen metals and avoid tax, will continue to thrive. The problem of metal theft has spiked in recent years, owing to a sharp rise in world commodity prices. Unscrupulous thieves are growing bolder and more prolific. Hardly a day goes by when we do not hear reports of metal thefts targeting transport systems, telecommunications, energy networks, monuments, memorials or churches. Every constituency has a story to tell. The epidemic is holding ordinary hard-working people to ransom.

When I addressed the House on Second Reading in July, I referred to several devastating examples of metal theft resulting in entire communities being cut off, cancer operations being cancelled, war memorials and burial plaques being defaced, and historic artefacts being lost to us for ever. Since then the incidents have piled up. Today there were media reports of vandals destroying a world war two memorial in Brentwood, just days before Britain honours its heroes on Remembrance Sunday.

The Bill proposes wholesale reform of the scrap metal industry, which is the principal outlet for stolen metal. Significantly, it has the backing of the Royal British Legion, for whose support I am very grateful, the War Memorials Trust and the Church of England, which sees the Bill as a major tool in the fight to prevent the desecration of war memorials. According to The Times this morning, the new Archbishop of Canterbury is a supporter of the Bill, which also has the support of leading organisations that have all suffered from the devastating impact of metal theft. They include Network Rail, BT, the Energy Networks Association, the Institute of Directors, the Federation of Small Businesses, Arts Council England, the Tate galleries, the Henry Moore Foundation, the Local Government Association and the British Transport police. The British Metals Recycling Association—the industry’s only trade association—has also been heavily involved in drafting the Bill. I am extremely grateful to everyone in those organisations who has given me unfailing and unstinting support throughout the Bill’s progress.

I am also grateful to the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) and his Opposition colleagues. I pay tribute to the early work done by the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones), who did a lot to pave the way for the passage of this Bill. I am also grateful to the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), who has been unfailing in his support and whose officials throughout have given me advice without hesitation whenever I wanted it.

For too long, the cash-in-hand culture in the scrap metal industry has allowed criminals to ply their trade under the cloak of anonymity. As a result of this largely unregulated £5.6 billion industry—up to £1.5 billion of which thrives tax-free because of a lack of honest record keeping—our transport, energy and telecommunications infrastructure is under constant threat. This is no petty crime. We hear regular reports of metal thefts that cut off power to communities and hospitals, putting people’s lives in danger. Even more sickening are the attacks on churches, crematoria and war memorials. Many tributes will be paid to this nation’s heroes who laid down their lives for this country on Remembrance Sunday. This momentous anniversary falls two days after my Bill is debated in the House, when I will wear my poppy with pride and optimism. For that reason alone, I hope the House will give the Bill a Third Reading.

Oral Answers to Questions

Richard Ottaway Excerpts

Monday 15th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

4. What steps her Department is taking to tackle metal theft.

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

7. What steps her Department is taking to tackle metal theft.

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

The Government are delivering a coherent package of measures to tackle metal theft, which includes: banning cash payments for scrap metal; enhancing law enforcement through the national metal theft taskforce; and improving the traceability of stolen metal. We are also working with my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) to support his private Member’s Bill to reform the scrap metal industry.

[Mr Browne]

I will make two brief points on that. First, we are keen to encourage people to report wrongdoing in this sector, where there has been widespread abuse, as it is important that that is addressed. Secondly, I hope that one of the main benefits of the measures that have been introduced is that legitimate scrap metal dealers, whose businesses have been hampered by having to compete with people who are breaking the law, will now be able to operate in a culture where it will be easier for their businesses to be profitable

[Richard Ottaway]

In the light of the Government’s laudable decision to commemorate the centenary of the first world war, does the Minister agree that my Scrap Metal Dealers Bill will do much to counter the vandalism of graveyards and war memorials? Does he also agree that to support the Bill is to recognise the significance of the first world war, a legacy that future generations should never forget?

[Mr Browne]

The House will not be surprised to learn that I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. Scrap metal theft is a serious crime that can have serious and expensive consequences, but Members in all parties will feel that when it involves the desecration of war memorials, particularly those relating to the two great wars of the past century, in which so many British and Commonwealth soldiers died, that is particularly offensive to our sensibilities. I very much hope that his private Member’s Bill, and other measures being taken by the Government, will help to address that appalling behaviour.

Scrap Metal Dealers Bill

Richard Ottaway Excerpts

Friday 13th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Whenever a Member comes high in the ballot for private Members’ Bills, he quickly realises how popular he is, but I had no doubt about what Bill I wanted to introduce, even though today is Friday the 13th. My concern over the scourge of metal theft started on a cold January morning in 2009, when the organist at Croydon parish church made a discovery of profound consequences. Melting snow was running through the roof, into the side chapels, choir vestry and straight on to the 19th-century Hill organ, causing serious damage. Not for the first time, bloody-minded thieves had targeted the grade I-listed church. On this occasion, they had stripped 200 square metres of lead from the roofs, causing more than £150,000 of damage—for metal worth little more than £4,000.

Everybody in the House has a constituency story about scrap metal theft, and to me the assault on Croydon minster highlights a common theme: the shocking disparity between the value of the stolen metal and the financial and emotional hurt and damage that the theft causes. My constituency has been hit consistently by metal theft. Public buildings, churches, schools and telecoms cables have been repeatedly targeted, and my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) had the plaque stolen from his father’s grave. There was public outrage over the theft of two plaques from the Sanderstead war memorial that bore the names of 45 local people who sacrificed their lives in world war one. Two priceless plaques are lost to us for ever. Their scrap value was probably £50 but their value to the community was beyond measure.

Croydon has had the highest rate of metal theft in London. On average, London boroughs suffer five thefts a week, but in recent years Croydon has averaged 10. Twenty eight thefts were recorded in one week in April, and in May British Transport police conducted a high-profile raid on a scrap metal yard in west Croydon, recovering hundreds of crematorium and cemetery plaques. Since that raid, the number of reported metal thefts in the borough has plummeted by 38%. This backs up what the police tell us: that the scrap metal industry is the main outlet for stolen metal. It also exposes the failings of our current legislation, which was crafted more than half a century ago.

The House will be dismayed by the theft this week of a Henry Moore sculpture from the Henry Moore Foundation in Much Hadham. Metal thefts are hitting people across the UK daily. Energy networks are now averaging 16 incidents a day, and last year British Telecom received 100,000 customer reports of faults that occurred as a direct result of cable theft. In the past six years, more than a third of churches have been robbed. Insurance claims connected with such thefts have gone up by 70%, and in 2011 they reached a record high of £4.5 million, with the total cost to the Church of England exceeding £10 million.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

I will not delay the House; I want to make just a quick intervention. I am told that some churches have had so many thefts that they are paying to have any remaining lead on their roofs stripped and replaced with inferior materials, simply because they cannot afford to keep claiming on the insurance or having the work done. They are therefore going to the other extreme and almost becoming metal theft vandals themselves. Let me also flag up for the hon. Gentleman another problem that is affecting many ordinary folk. A constituent of mine was outside cleaning his fridge-freezer—it was almost brand new. He popped in to boil the kettle, and when he came out it had gone, on the back of a truck somewhere. That is the level that some of these people are stooping to.

[Richard Ottaway]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right in his first point. Having to replace roofs causes heritage problems. The low level of much of this crime is a point I will come to shortly.

The cost of metal theft to local authorities has shot up by 26% in a year. The latest stats reveal that nearly nine out of 10 councils across England and Wales have been the victims of scrap thieves. Road signs and drain covers are regularly disappearing. The cost to the UK economy has been estimated at more than £750 million by the Association of Chief Police Officers. In all honesty, however, the real figure is probably much higher.

What cannot be overestimated, however—it is very hard to measure—is the devastating impact that a single theft can have on the lives of hundreds of thousands of ordinary people. The theft of £40 of copper can cause £500,000-worth of damage. Three times this year, thieves have taken BT copper cables from the same spot in Bexley. Each time they knocked out about 2,000 landlines for four days. An entire community of homes lost broadband, mobile signals and the internet. Pendant alarms on elderly people could not work. In an emergency, no one could call 999 or even a relative. One shudders to think of the consequences if a serious event had occurred. Llandough hospital near Cardiff suffered a similar attack in December, resulting in the postponement of more than 80 operations, including for eight cancer patients. Last August, thieves broke into a house in Hartlepool to steal copper from a gas boiler, which led to a gas leak, a fire and a huge explosion. More than 100 people were evacuated and bystanders were injured by flying shards of glass.

[Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)]

The incident the hon. Gentleman mentions in Bexley occurred in my constituency. One of the companies there—an old, established company—has been in touch with me three times this year because, exactly as he says, its phone and e-mail communications were stripped out. That resulted in the company losing thousands of pounds of orders, which puts jobs at risk, and that is in one firm in an industrial area. It is therefore hard to calculate how many jobs have been put at risk or how many firms on the edge might just teeter over because of metal theft.

[Richard Ottaway]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right, and I am sure we all share her concern about the events that took place in her constituency. She has illustrated the disparity between the scrap metal costs and the damage to society that results from such behaviour.

Metal theft has also had a serious impact in the transport sector. Last year, 36,000 rail services were delayed or cancelled in Great Britain as a result of cable theft. Two of Network Rail’s biggest delays ever were on key commuter routes from London, at Bermondsey and Woking, causing around 200 trains to be cancelled. Many thousands of passengers, including my constituents, were seriously delayed.

[Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con)]

Cable theft is not only enormously disruptive to the travelling public, but incredibly dangerous to those trying to do it. Only on 27 June a man presumed to have been trying to steal electricity cables was electrocuted in my constituency. Does my hon. Friend agree that the ease with which people can sell the metal is encouraging quite a lot of people to put their lives at risk?

[Richard Ottaway]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. In fact, I am reliably informed that 12 people were killed last year in the process of stealing electrified cables.

We are talking not about petty theft but about an industry, with criminals holding our society to ransom. Why? It is because they see metal theft as a soft target. The police tell us that metal theft is emerging as a new acquisitive crime. It is a low-risk enterprise, with plenty of vulnerable targets to plunder. Around 80% of people linked to cable theft live within six miles of the crime location. Clearly, they have no fear of being caught. The surge is driven partly by the low risk of detection. The lack of an effective framework to combat metal theft has a lot to answer for. We need new legislation to disrupt and then shut down the trade in stolen metal.

[Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on this important Bill. Does he agree that in rural constituencies such as Staffordshire Moorlands, police resources are being diverted to deal with metal theft in isolated areas, such as in pubs that are being renovated, as we have seen in my constituency? The police are being distracted from what they should be doing and are instead having to monitor isolated rural areas for metal thieves.

[Richard Ottaway]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. Indeed, I will come to the question of enforcement a bit later.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend that the low risk of being caught is driving much of this theft. What assessment has he made of the use of SmartWater? Where it has been used by churches, Network Rail or war memorials—indeed, SmartWater provides the product to war memorials free of charge—the amount of theft has gone down considerably, because the chance of being caught goes up considerably.

[Richard Ottaway]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Putting SmartWater on to cables and using a UV light on materials that come into yards is acting as a deterrent. However, such is the nature of market forces that people are already beginning to find a way round that. Technology has to move on and continue to provide a deterrent—again, a point I shall come to in a minute.

The escalating problem of scrap metal theft results from the confluence of two things: the global rise in commodity prices over recent years and a badly regulated industry, which my Bill will tackle. It proposes a tough but fair regime for our scrap metal industry. It will support legitimate dealers and penalise the parasites who profit from the things we hold most sacred.

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning the incident at Llandough hospital, which affected the operations of very many of my constituents. Surely there is also a third aspect: what happens at the present time to those engaged in such activities who are caught. We had another incident in south Wales—a notorious incident—involving the Pontardulais town band, all of whose instruments were stolen. The leader of the band contacted the local scrap metal dealer to warn him of the theft, yet half an hour later the instruments were received by the dealer, crushed, for £61, and the court imposed a £500 compensation order. Is that not part of the problem as well?

[Richard Ottaway]

Absolutely, and those are two points that I shall be coming to. Indeed, as my hon. Friend has illustrated, in some cases half an hour can be too long. Sometimes it takes only minutes from the theft for the metal to become untraceable, it having been processed and converted into cash by thieves.

I have visited many scrap yards in recent weeks—I can assure the House that in this weather it has been a character-forming experience for me. There are more than 2,500 legal scrap yards and hundreds of illegal ones. At the bottom of the industry’s pyramid are the thousands of mobile collectors—sometimes known as “itinerants”—who collect scrap metal from houses, small businesses, plumbers, electricians and factories. We have no idea of the numbers or exactly what they get up to, which is part of the problem. Mobile collectors sell scrap metal to yards, which clean up the product, stripping cable from wires, sorting the different metals—lead, copper, brass: you name it—chopping up large bits of metal into small pieces and packaging it into lots for onward sale. The small yards feed it to the medium-size yards, which continue to process it and sell it to the large yards. The majority of the non-ferrous metal that comes out at the end is packed into 25-tonne containers and exported abroad, or sent to the 20 to 30 furnaces in the UK.

The greatest opportunity for stolen metals to get into the chain arises at the bottom of the pyramid. Some of this is done by organised criminals, and some by young kids trying to make a quick buck. Either way, we have a problem that needs to be addressed. It is the prevalence of cash transactions, together with the anonymity and lack of traceability of the stolen metals, that fosters criminal activity. It is all too easy to convert stolen metal into cash within minutes. With the world price of copper at almost £5,000 per tonne, the temptation is irresistible.

We need new legislation. The existing regulatory regime is the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964. Incidentally, that legislation was introduced as a private Member’s Bill following a spike in world commodity prices, so things do not change much. The Act is now out of date and requires wholesale reform. Under its provisions, scrap metal dealers are required to register with local authorities, but the authorities have no power to turn down or revoke a licence. Indeed, the obligation to get a licence is often ignored. There is nothing to compel accurate record keeping or to verify the ID of the seller. False names and addresses are logged with impunity—Mr M. Mouse and Mr D. Duck seem to be regular traders. Under the Act, there is a complete lack of co-ordination between the authorities, which have limited powers of inspection. Scrap metal dealers are also able to trade in cash.

Concerns have been expressed over the proposal in my Bill to outlaw cash payments altogether, and I should like to address that point directly. The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, which received Royal Assent earlier this year, will ban cash payments except for mobile collectors and car breakers. I welcome this move, but it does not go far enough. We are still left with numerous points where stolen metal can be sold for cash and infect the pyramid.

Allowing cash payments for itinerant collectors in house-to-house collections creates a loophole. That is where most of the criminal activity takes place. Before we know where we are, businesses will be run from garages and the back gardens of people’s homes. A complication arises because those collectors also collect from businesses, and the product is mixed up. It then becomes impossible to identify which metal has come from households and which has come from businesses.

No records are kept and no taxes are paid. A mobile dealer who handles, say, three to four tonnes of scrap metal a day—which is not unusual—could earn up to £200,000 a year, which is significantly above the £77,000 VAT threshold. Once business taxes are taken into account, it is estimated that more than £1 billion is being lost to the taxman each year. This practice creates a distorted marketplace, with bona fide registered dealers paying VAT and taxes while the tax avoider gets a competitive advantage. The industry itself is crying out for a level playing field.

[Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)]

That is a crucial point. The largest and most legitimate scrap metal dealer in Southampton frequently makes the point not only to me but to the police that there has to be a level playing field, and that there must be a complete ban on cash transactions so that legitimate businesses that pay their taxes are not disadvantaged by those that are using the loopholes that my hon. Friend has identified.

[Richard Ottaway]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s support for this, the most controversial part of my Bill. This is the area in which the most criminality exists, and we need to tackle it head on.

[Robert Flello]

I was on one of my regular visits to parts of my constituency with the police recently, and we were sitting near a scrap metal yard that has been identified as creating a nuisance. As we watched the vans going in, the police officer I was with would frequently say, “He’s known to the police.” The drivers of many of the vehicles going into the yard were known to the police for other acts of criminality. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this reinforces his point?

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Ottaway]

Absolutely. It also reinforces my point that, although the police might have knowledge or suspicion of criminal activity, it is hard to prove when there are no records. There is often no way of pinning that criminal activity on the offenders.

My Bill will repeal the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 and addresses the cashless loophole by introducing a comprehensive ban on cash payments for scrap metal, including for mobile collectors and vehicle salvage operators. It is worth noting that when France introduced cashless payments last year, metal theft in Paris fell by 50%. My Bill will also oblige scrap metal dealers to verify the ID of all sellers of metal at the point of sale and keep records of the transaction available for inspection for a period of two years.

This will build on the notable success of Operation Tornado, a voluntary scheme led by the British Transport police under the wing of the national metal theft taskforce. It requires anyone selling scrap metal to dealers to provide photographic proof of ID. The results so far are impressive. The initial pilot scheme was in the north-east, and in the first six months, overall results showed a 50% drop in metal thefts. In the city of Durham, there was a fall of 73%. Operation Tornado is now being rolled out across the country, and we all have high hopes for its continued success.

The key feature of my Bill is the provision, in clauses 1 and 2, that no one may carry on a business as a scrap metal dealer unless they have a licence from their local authority. That will include motor salvage operators. The licence will be valid for three years, and a licence fee will be charged to cover the cost to local authorities of administering the licensing regime and ensuring compliance.

Clause 3 will give local authorities the power to turn down applicants unless they are satisfied that the applicant is a suitable person to carry on business as a scrap metal dealer. Unsuitability may be determined by a range of factors, including a criminal conviction. Clause 4 will give local authorities the power to revoke a licence. The Bill will also give the police and local authorities greater powers to take action against unregistered dealers. It contains powers to enter and inspect, and clause 9 will give the police and local authorities the power to close unlicensed premises with a court order. At long last, we will be able to ensure that any scrap metal dealer, whether mobile, on a site or a motor salvage operator will not be allowed to conduct business without a licence.

[Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con)]

I am listening with interest to my hon. Friend’s comments about the licensing of scrap metal dealers, but I am still at a loss to understand how we can prevent people who steal metal from war memorials—as happened in Lingfield, in my constituency—from selling it. Even a licensed dealer could still buy stolen metal.

[Richard Ottaway]

My hon. Friend makes a key point. The Bill on its own is not a silver bullet. It is part of the overall picture, and it will be necessary to work with the Home Office and the police on its enforcement. The Bill will give the authorities the necessary power to implement a much tougher regime than the one that we have now, which is manifestly not working.

Clause 7 provides for the creation of a single, national publicly available register of all licensed scrap metal dealers, which will be maintained by the Environment Agency. It will be fully transparent and accessible to the public, and will for the first time give a national picture of the industry. That is another feature that I hope will be welcomed.

The current legislation does nothing to stop metal theft. It does nothing to incentivise good trading standards. It excludes mobile collectors from rules on cash payments, and it does nothing to support the law-abiding, legitimate scrap metal dealers. I believe that my Bill will address those woeful shortcomings. The worst breaches of the provisions of my Bill, such as operating as a scrap metal dealer without a licence, trading in cash or failing to keep proper records of dealings, will attract punitive unlimited fines. Many have complained that sentences for metal thieves do not reflect the economic and emotional impact of the crime. That matter will be considered by the Sentencing Council this autumn.

As I have said, the Bill is not a silver bullet; it will not provide all the answers. It is part of a comprehensive plan to address the overall problem. Many questions have been raised about scrap metal exports. Much of that goes through our ports in containers—some legally, some illegally—and intelligence evidence suggests the majority of stolen metals that find their way into those containers have been through scrap metal dealerships first. However, I am pleased to report that excellent work is being done in this area, under the umbrella of the national metal theft taskforce, which I hope will continue to receive financial support from the Government. Analysts from the British Transport police, who co-ordinate the taskforce, have joined forces with the UK Border Agency, the Serious Organised Crime Agency and the container intelligence team at Felixstowe port to help identify and intercept containers carrying stolen metals. The taskforce has also established the force intelligence unit, which brings police and the industry together to function as a central hub for all metal theft intelligence. Work is also under way to design pioneering DNA techniques to improve the traceability of stolen metals.

If I may behave out of character for a moment, I want to applaud the British media, who have been quick to highlight and condemn incidents of scrap metal theft. The stories and campaigns, such as the “lest we forget” campaign by The Sunday Telegraph to protect our war memorials, have ensured the issue is constantly topping the agenda. I also congratulate the War Memorials Trust on its worthy “In Memoriam 2014” campaign, in partnership with the SmartWater Foundation, to protect all memorials in the run-up to the 100th anniversary of world war one. Half of the £6,000 cost to replace the plaques that were stolen from my local Sanderstead war memorial is being met by the trust, and I am delighted to have its support for my Bill. I pay tribute to it for its work.

We need a holistic approach in order to tackle the problem of metal theft. My Bill will sit at the heart of the chain of reform. This is our chance to support the legitimate traders and stamp out the loopholes that are allowing a sinister criminal underworld to grow in strength and in numbers. I have been deeply encouraged by the groundswell of support for my Bill right across society. Private Members’ Bills are notoriously vulnerable to opposition, but I ask the House to give this Bill, and its cause, its unanimous support.

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. A considerable cost is incurred by many organisations and by society where local communities have been left without various services and where organisations that do fantastic work in those communities are compromised in the amount they can do for them because of the cost of the theft. The Association of British Insurers has claimed that this is costing £1 million a week in insurance claims and that 300 tonnes of metal is stolen every week, which is the equivalent of 300 cars. The ABI has also said that UK metal thefts have doubled in the past five years, to about 1,000 reported incidents a week.

Metal thefts are also a problem in my constituency. In April, there was a spate of thefts of brass door handles. Inspector Tatham of the Shipley neighbourhood policing team told my local paper:

“We have had a number of reports of brass theft from homes near the A650 in Shipley so far this month and are investigating the matter. The thieves appear to be targeting older properties with brass door handles”.

In addition, 28 iron cellar grates dating back to Victorian times were stolen last year from the world heritage site at Saltaire in my constituency. Metal theft also often takes place in very dangerous locations; my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South made the point that at least 10 people died in the past year while attempting to steal metal on railway lines. So many costs, both financial and human, are involved in metal theft, which is why I congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing this matter to the House.

Let me deal with the current position under the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964. Special regulations have applied to scrap metal dealers since at least the late 1800s in order to help tackle the theft of metal. The 1964 Act places specific controls on scrap metal dealers to discourage the trade in stolen metal; these are in addition to the general requirements under the Environmental Protection Act 1990. The controls under the 1964 Act include the fact that dealers have to register with the local authority and local authorities have to maintain a list of dealers. Dealers are required to keep a variety of records, including details of the types of metal received, of the processing of that metal and of the names of those disposing of metal at their site. A failure to meet the requirements of the 1964 Act may lead to a fine of up to £1,000.

The Government have also set up the metal theft taskforce. On 29 November last year the Chancellor announced £5 million of Treasury funding to establish a multi-agency national metal theft taskforce, to be led by the British Transport police. The Home Office has said that the taskforce will

“develop intelligence, coordinate activity and target and disrupt criminal networks—both the thieves and also the criminal market, including rogue elements of the scrap metal industry.”

Last June, we also had the waste review, which was set up to consider available penalties and sentencing guidelines for scrap metal theft and there is certainly scope for increasing the penalties for and sentencing of people involved in these crimes. The Select Committee on Transport produced a report in January that made a number of recommendations for reform, including

“introducing a new offence of aggravated trespass on the railways to increase the penalties associated with cable theft.”

As my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South said, we also have the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, and last minute amendments were introduced to the Bill to make it illegal for scrap metal dealers to accept cash for transactions. I was very nervous about that. In principle, it seemed to me to be perhaps a step too far, but now we have a new Bill proposed seemingly only five minutes after the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act was passed. My understanding is that the new measures will not commence until this autumn, so we seem already to be discussing a new law to replace one that has not yet even come into force. I wonder about the sense in this House introducing new legislation when the previous legislation has not even come into play.

The Bill repeals the 1964 Act and replaces it with legislation that empowers local authorities with a more robust and, I am sure my hon. Friend would say, more enforceable licence regime for all those who deal and collect scrap metal. The key features are: any individual or business who carries out business as a scrap metal dealer must complete an enhanced application process to get a licence; local authorities can refuse unsuitable applicants and have the power to revoke licences; all sellers of metal must provide verifiable ID at the point of sale, which is recorded and retained by the dealer; the cashless offence will apply to all scrap metal dealers without exception, including those who conduct house-to-house collections, and although there are a few concerns about how to protect people selling scrap metal at their house and to ensure that they get proper payment for their goods, I am sure that we can discuss that later; the police will have the power by court order to close unlicensed premises; a single national and publicly available register of all scrap metal dealers will be published; and the definition of a scrap metal dealer will include motor salvage operators, bringing that licensing scheme within one new scrap metal licensing regime. In a nutshell, the Bill seems to be suggesting an awful lot of new regulations and new offences. We need to determine not the intention behind them or how well meaning they are, but how effective they will be in tackling a problem that we all agree must be tackled.

It seems to me that a real problem has been identified with the Bill.

[Richard Ottaway]

I am listening to my hon. Friend with close interest, but, on his last point about our introducing a lot more regulations, in truth we already have a lot of regulation and it is not working. We are reforming the existing regulation rather than bringing in new regulation.

[Philip Davies]

I agree with my hon. Friend, but we might have drawn a slightly different conclusion from the point on which we agree. My point would be that we do indeed have a lot of regulation for scrap metal, as the 1964 Act includes quite a bit of it, but, as he has identified, it has not worked and is not working. If regulating the industry has not worked, I am not entirely sure that the solution is even more regulation. I am not entirely sure where the evidence is that suggests that solution and that is the nub of my concern.

It seems to me that the only solution proposed to solve the problem is regulation, regulation, regulation. I wonder whether other measures could be a bit more successful, such as SmartWater, which I mentioned earlier and which is already having a great effect in reducing theft. Not only does it help to bring people to justice, but it acts as a deterrent to stealing the metal in the first place. Another measure might involve increasing the sentences for people who are caught. If we had more robust penalties and sentencing for this crime and if we sent people to prison and kept them there longer, that would have a much more beneficial effect on the local community and metal theft than simply tackling the scrap metal dealers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to make that point. We have seen many examples where a local authority is given a small amount of power, and, before we know it, it is expanding and empire-building at every possible opportunity, and increasing costs on a salami-slice basis. Before we know it, an industry that thought it worth paying a small cost to deal with a problem finds that there is still a big problem, but its costs have gone up hugely and show no sign of abating.

[Richard Ottaway]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way again. Before this argument runs away with itself, I should confirm to the House that although the local authority would have the power to set the licence fee, a cap will be set in regulations by the Home Office.

[Philip Davies]

I am grateful for that clarification. Let us just hope that we always have sensible people in the Home Office. Clearly, we can have confidence at the moment: I see the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), is on the Front Bench. I do not want to alarm him unduly about his career prospects, but Ministers come and go, and although we may have confidence in this Minister, I am not sure that I share the faith of my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South that every future Home Office Minister, whatever their party, will show the same wisdom as this Minister in setting the regulations.

As I was saying, the Bill would affect legitimate businesses. It is worth showing the other side of the industry, because there are good operators in it, as some newspaper stories show; unlike my hon. Friend, I am a big fan of the media, so I am sure that these stories are true. Let me set out one case involving a scrap metal dealer. I am sure that this happens time and again; I am picking out just one example, as the House would not want me to go through every single newspaper report of this kind. I use this story as an illustration. A scrap metal dealer called the police when he was asked to purchase a war memorial from offenders. When Lana Jane Clitheroe and Paul David Kelly pleaded guilty to stealing from a war memorial in St Mary’s church on Lewisham High street, the district judge, Julia Newton from Bromley magistrates court, said in her sentencing remarks:

“A scrap metal dealer was approached by the Defendants; he very quickly realised what the item was and refused to accept it.”

He alerted the police to the problem, so that they were able to catch the offenders.

Many legitimate scrap metal dealers are part of the solution to the problem. They do not want to be involved in any illegal activity and to take things that have been stolen, and they play a crucial role in alerting the authorities to the problem. I feel nervous about saying to the scrap metal dealer who was involved in that case, “I will treat you as if you are potentially involved in criminal activity, and put on you a huge new burden and cost.” What has that person done wrong? What has he done to deserve that? He is part of the solution, not the problem.

Another scrap metal dealer

“donated £21,000 to replace metal plaques stolen from a war memorial in south London.

Fourteen bronze plaques bearing the names of 243 World War I servicemen were stolen from Carshalton war memorial in Sutton in September 2011.”

The scrap metal dealer

“said he was as ‘outraged as everyone else’ that it had been ‘plundered’.”

These are good people—people whom we should be trying to help, and whose side we should be on. The Bill would impose on those people huge burdens and extra costs. What have they done to deserve those extra burdens and costs? Nothing, as far as I can see. We are castigating a whole industry because of some people who are operating illegitimately in that industry. My solution is to go after the criminals. Let us pursue criminals, not a whole industry, which includes some very good people who are not criminals at all.

On bringing offenders to justice, we can use the Theft Act 1968 to charge unscrupulous scrap metal dealers with handling stolen goods. There is already a law with which to tackle the problem of people who handle stolen goods. In addition to using all the existing scrap metal legislation, we should use the Theft Act to prosecute those who accept stolen scrap metal and pass it on. It states:

“(1) A person handles stolen goods if (otherwise than in the course of the stealing) knowing or believing them to be stolen goods he dishonestly receives the goods, or dishonestly undertakes or assists in their retention, removal, disposal or realisation by or for the benefit of another person, or if he arranges to do so.

(2) A person guilty of handling stolen goods shall on conviction on indictment be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.”

That is already on the statute book. If a scrap metal dealer is found guilty of handling stolen goods—the definition in the Theft Act makes it perfectly clear that someone handling stolen metal is guilty of handling stolen goods—it is already in statute that they can be sent to prison for a term not exceeding 14 years.

If we actually gave proper sentences, and sentencing guidance was strengthened, so that the provisions in the Theft Act were invoked and a few 10-year-plus sentences were handed down by the courts to these people, we would find a vast drop in the number of scrap metal dealers handling stolen goods, without imposing any kind of extra licensing regime, bureaucracy, or cost, and without giving local authorities more police-like powers to interfere in every nook and cranny of people’s businesses. Let us just start handing down some proper sentences to these people; we will find that some people go legitimate very quickly indeed.

If someone walks off the street into a scrap metal dealer with a chunk of railway line in their hand, or a £500,000 statue or a huge great war memorial in a van, and the scrap metal dealer accepts it and pays them a few pounds for it without any questions asked, the scrap metal dealer should be prosecuted under the Theft Act. If the police and the Crown Prosecution Service cannot get a conviction for that, it says more about our criminal justice system than about anything else.

Scrap Metal Theft

Richard Ottaway Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Allen]

I am sure that the Minister has taken note of this new and innovative branch of the scrap metal business and may well be thinking about introducing legislation as we speak.

I have certainly understood the concern about scrap metal theft over the past week or so, because I have been inundated with individuals and organisations who have become aware of this debate and who have written to me, telephoned me or e-mailed me about how serious the situation is. Changes do need to be made. These are changes that will be welcomed by the vast majority of legitimate scrap metal dealers. They operate within a £5.6 billion industry and employ 8,000 people across the UK. Most of those people will welcome some of the proposals that hon. Members are collectively putting forward.

I welcome what the Government have done to trial and now to expand Operation Tornado to cover the whole country. Operation Tornado makes those selling scrap metal to participating dealers provide proof of their identity and it was an outstanding success when trialled in Durham and Cleveland, sparking a 55% reduction in thefts. I was delighted to see Operation Tornado being adopted by the Nottinghamshire police force a few months ago.

As campaigning Members of Parliament throughout the House realise, much more needs to be done. Many colleagues who are present in the Chamber tonight have put this matter on the record in various ways. In particular, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) for what he has done in recent weeks, for his efforts and for his Bill. He should be listened to when legislation on this issue is considered.

I welcome the announcement made by the hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) that he will dedicate his precious private Member’s Bill to this matter. His initial proposals, which I have had a chance to look at, are very welcome but he knows as well as I do the delicate road he must negotiate under the archaic private Member’s Bill process if he is to get his proposal into law. If he wishes to try, I would be happy to accompany him through that dark and deadly legislative jungle. I hope that the Minister will draw strength from those of us in the Chamber and from many Members who are not so that he is cast in the part of not the silent assassin of the hon. Gentleman’s Bill but the Indiana Jones of scrap metal.

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

As someone who once upon a time represented the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, I can empathise with his situation. I assure him that ever since I announced that I was introducing my Bill, it has received a substantial amount of support. I might be counting my chickens before they are hatched, but I am optimistic that I might be able to persuade the Government to back the Bill.

[Mr Allen]

I think that people from all parties will wish to support that. These procedures are full of trips, traps and minefields, but I will assist the hon. Gentleman if he wishes and I am sure that our combined experience, and that of our colleagues, will be able to placate any forces in the depths of Government that do not want private Member’s Bills to succeed. His Bill will be to the credit of everyone involved, including the Government, if it can be given a fair wind.