Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Pippa Heylings and Torcuil Crichton

Report stage
Tuesday 29th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Pippa Heylings]

I appreciate that, which is why I quoted from the founding statement. The problem is that those words are not enshrined in the Bill itself, which is why we are surprised that the Government continue to vote down amendments that would put communities at the heart of the Bill. We will continue to push on that.

I thank the 58 Members from different parties who have supported amendment 5, which requires that the statement of strategic priorities for Great British Energy has specific regard to community-based clean energy schemes. I would also like to give recognition to my colleagues who are leading the way in promoting the benefits of community energy, including my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart), as we have just heard.

[Torcuil Crichton]

Does the hon. Lady recall the evidence of Juergen Maier, EDF, SSE and the Minister to the Committee? They all gave commitments to community energy and to the local power plan being almost an eighth—almost £1 billion-worth—of GB Energy’s plans.

[Pippa Heylings]

In fact, I said at the beginning of my contribution that I welcomed the constructive debate in Committee.

Great British Energy Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Pippa Heylings and Torcuil Crichton

Committee stage
Thursday 10th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Pippa Heylings]

It is wonderful to hear hon. Members say how supportive they are of community energy and give examples from their local areas. In Cambridgeshire, the expertise is still there—it is absolutely amazing. We have community energy projects, including wind energy, and a whole village has an off-grid heat network, which is a national case in point.

I ask the Minister once again to take into account the cross-party support for the amendment. It is not a bauble, nor is it about crossing t’s and dotting i’s; it is about public ownership models. At the moment there is real concern, because although we talk about the great things happening, in the latest meetings we have held with advocates of community energy, we have been told that it is in crisis. Although GB Energy is removing the barriers to large-scale clean energy projects, there are barriers to community energy, which is why we have so few new community energy projects, in contrast to the past. We need investment, but it is not just about the money and capacity. It is about the rights—the ownership model and the right not only to generate but to sell locally, with an equal cost to connect.

[Torcuil Crichton]

I take the hon. Member’s point about rights. Usually, land rights prevent communities from taking a stake in energy projects. Community-owned land, which we have plenty of in the Western Isles and across Scotland, is the key—land that the community has ownership of.

The other problem, which I am sure GB Energy should and will unlock, is access to the grid, to get community companies on to the grid; GB Energy and regulation from the Department should be crucial to achieving that.

[Pippa Heylings]

I thank the hon. Member for making that point about the cost for communities of connecting to the grid, which makes it completely unviable for them to do so. It is not about capacity; the communities know what they want to do and are ready to do it. Unfortunately, although there is a right to sell energy locally, the cost of connection makes it completely unviable.

Great British Energy Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Pippa Heylings and Torcuil Crichton

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Pippa Heylings (South Cambridgeshire) (LD)]

Q You talked about the objects within the scope of the law, about facilitating and encouraging, and about frontier innovation in technology and energy generation, but you also talked about de-risking. You did not mention onshore wind, so I am wondering whether that would lead also to onshore wind. There are also tidal programmes, such as the reef from Aberthaw to Minehead, that are stalled. Do you see these as part of helping to facilitate and de-risk within the scope of GB Energy, too?

Tristan Zipfel: For sure, yes, they could be part of the scope. Choices will need to be made, of course, on where those investments are directed, and I think it is important to direct the investments where they will have the maximum impact. When it comes to onshore wind, for instance, perhaps it could be a case not of investing where the private sector is already doing a good job on its own, but of looking at areas where there is a need to develop infrastructure to unlock these onshore wind opportunities, or of looking at Government-owned land that could be used to develop new projects. As you said, Alistair, it is going to be complementary to what the private sector is doing, but there will be pockets of opportunities for GB Energy to really make a difference, even in an area like onshore wind, I think—100%.

Alistair McGirr: I agree with that answer. The question would then be: where is the biggest bang for the buck? Is it building large onshore wind projects that actually have developers in that space and have a route to market? That is probably the question for GB Energy: is that the best use of taxpayers’ money, rather than other things that can be done in terms of investment in frontier technologies?

You mentioned tidal. There is the question there of an absence of a business model. If there was this supported business model, there might be an opportunity for private investors to come into that space. There is the issue that just because the private sector is not doing it does not mean that the public sector should do it, because ultimately, if it is a bad deal for private shareholders, it is probably a bad deal for taxpayers as well. I think this is about making sure that the technologies that are useful are brought forward with business models that provide a return for whoever the investor is.

[Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)]

Q Welcome, gentlemen. In relation to clause 3(2)(a) and

“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”,

you have welcomed state intervention and the role of GB Energy in that. How would you feel about communities taking a direct stake in your onshore and offshore developments—say, 20%, as they do in Denmark?

Tristan Zipfel: On our side—I am sure SSE does the same—we are definitely looking at that. We are trying to develop some schemes that go exactly along those lines. We have not done it so far. The link and the reward to communities have been through the community benefits fund linked to our projects. I live in Teesside: we have an offshore wind farm there, and I can tell you that the community benefit fund, over the last 10 years of operation, has helped dozens of local projects and initiatives. You are absolutely right to think the next frontier is to have more local ownership of wind farms. That could be through GB Energy, but it could also be through direct ownership schemes. We are looking at those options at the moment.

Alistair McGirr: As I mentioned at the start, we partner with a number of different organisations; I mentioned Equinor, which is a state-owned entity. We are open to working with any kind of party on a commercial basis, be it a community or another developer. In that sense, the communities taking a stake in some of the projects is something that could be done. The question is: what are the terms of that arrangement? There is the critical point that any community ownership should be focused on co-investment. It should not just be the case that 20% of a project is passed on to a community, because that will be value that is basically taken out of the project, which then inflates the cost of the project. So the co-investment piece is very important. Whether it involves another developer, another state-owned entity, GB Energy or a community, I think that is a useful way of bringing capital into the UK’s low-carbon infrastructure.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pippa Heylings]

Q I would like to understand whether you see this as the missing limb in clause 3, on the objects. I heard you mention in the Chamber that the fifth objective of GB Energy is community energy, so we are missing the fifth objective in clause 3 around community energy. We heard from all the witnesses about how crucial this community piece is, both to de-risking and to reducing the delay. I wonder whether you would be open to an amendment and would consider putting it in here. I do not think that this would make it more difficult to hold the flexible, wide-ranging framework that we have had, so I want to see if you are open to that.

Michael Shanks: There are two separate things here: the objects in the Bill, which are around the restrictions placed on Great British Energy, and the five key functions, which are outlined in the founding statement. I was referring to the five key functions, one of which is the local power plan, which is how we think we will deliver a lot more community-owned energy.

The important thing about the Bill is that we do not want inadvertently to create a list of things that we think are good to have—I do not disagree with you at all about the importance of that—but that actually end up restricting it in ways that we do not expect. There is that danger with Bills like this; it was the same with Great British Nuclear and the UK Infrastructure Bank, where they have a clear, focused remit. There is nothing in the objects that prevents community energy projects—in fact, they are intrinsic to several of them—but we think that adding more and more detail, including the amendment that you propose, is not the right way to go. But it is clear in the founding statement, in the evidence from Juergen Maier and in numerous answers from the Secretary of State and me that this is something to which we are absolutely committed.

[Torcuil Crichton]

Q Thank you, Minister, for your assurances on the Bill’s commitment and your own commitment to investing in community energy schemes and municipal schemes. We have heard from industry witnesses today about communities taking a stake in their own projects and about not having an industrial strategy that is agnostic. That obviously means giving priority to communities and to getting community projects on to grid connections, and making sure that they get all the help they can get to bring their projects to fruition. Can you clarify how GB Energy might help with that?

Michael Shanks: That is really important. There are two strands to this. The capacity building point, to which you allude, is critical. A lot of communities absolutely have the possibility, the option and the potential for some of these projects, but just do not have the capacity to deliver them. We see that as a critical role that GB Energy could have, as a sort of one-stop shop of experts to provide that support, help with the essential pre-planning work and help to navigate the connections issues.

The second point around connections is really important, and it is something I am focusing a lot of time on within my wider remit as Minister: how do we clear the connections queue, while also prioritising the projects that we want to get connected much faster? Some of that will require us simply to build more network infrastructure to alleviate the pressures; some of it is building on the work that the previous Government did around prioritising the queue.

There are difficult trade-offs. Far be it from me to give credit to the former Minister again, but there are trade-offs because it is important for us not to say that one project is more valuable than the other. There might be, for example, mechanisms around saying that one is more likely to be connected faster, or is further through its delivery phase and should therefore get priority over something else. There are also a lot of projects still in the queue that just should not be there at all, because they are nowhere near ready to be delivered. It is important that we work on both those things, but GB Energy can be a real catalyst for communities to unleash the potential that they have. I am really excited about the opportunities that are there.

In closing, may I thank Committee members for their forbearance today? Can I also say that it is the first time since 2010 that a Minister has given evidence in a Bill Committee? I am glad that this Labour Government have brought back the practice of Government Ministers being responsible to Parliament and answering these questions. I look forward to doing more of that in future.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Anna Turley.)