European Council

Peter Kyle Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am very happy to say exactly that to my hon. Friend. A number of hon. Friends have commented on comments that have been made by their constituents who are EU citizens that they do now feel reassured as a result of the phase 1 negotiation. I was clear that citizens’ rights should be one of the early issues that we addressed. We have done just that, and we have given people confidence for the future.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister has spent inordinate amounts of time reconciling the divisions within her own Cabinet, but no time whatsoever doing so for the public. Now that we are entering the most difficult part of these negotiations, what will she do specifically not only to deliver on the aspirations and excitement of those who voted leave, but to take into account the anxieties of people who voted remain?

[The Prime Minister]

Regardless of whether somebody voted leave or remain, I think the key focus for us all now is to ensure that we get the best possible deal for the United Kingdom as we leave the European Union. That is what the Government are focused on, and that is what we are going to do.

Oral Answers to Questions

Peter Kyle Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd November 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend raises an important issue. I set out in my speech in Florence that the UK will honour the commitments we have made during our period of membership. We do not want our European partners to fear that they will have to receive less or pay more during the current budget plan as a result of our leaving the European Union, but we can only resolve the financial implications of the UK’s withdrawal as a part of the settlement of all the issues I spoke about in Florence. Once that is done, of course, the days of Britain paying vast sums of money to the EU every year will end.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

Q11. Every Prime Minister since 1946 has successfully appointed a British judge to the International Court of Justice. Why hasn’t she?

[The Prime Minister]

The British Prime Minister does not appoint judges to the International Court of Justice. There is a process that is undertaken in the United Nations. We wish all the judges who have been appointed by the votes through the United Nations to the International Court of Justice well.

Article 50

Peter Kyle Excerpts

Wednesday 29th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. As he says, it is the case that the Supreme Court found that there will be no veto for the devolved Administrations, but it is interesting that the SNP argues that a decision to remain in the European Union by Scottish voters should somehow be dealt with differently from the overall result of the referendum. When we had the referendum in Scotland in 2014 on membership of the United Kingdom, I note that the SNP argued the exact opposite. It argued that the result as a whole was the only one that counted and that if parts of Scotland such as Orkney and Shetland voted differently, that should not be taken into account.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister has rightly spoken of unity. How will she respect and give a voice to the people and businesses who are extremely anxious about the journey on which the country has now embarked?

[The Prime Minister]

Of course we want to give certainty to businesses and others as soon as possible about the arrangements that will be put in place, but this will be a negotiation and there will be a degree of uncertainty. We cannot completely take away that uncertainty, but we can give clarity when we are able to do so, as we have been doing in the past few months.

Report of the Iraq Inquiry

Peter Kyle Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Somebody has just moaned about not being called to ask a question. I try to call everybody, but although what each individual has to say is enormously important to him or her, it is not necessarily any more important than what anybody else has to say. [Interruption.] Order. I do not need any help in the discharge of my duties. I will call colleagues, but colleagues need to be patient, and I am sure that none of them, for one moment, would be self-important—that is unimaginable.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

I am very grateful, Mr Speaker.

From my early and hurried reading of the report, I can see no evidence that anybody acted in bad faith. However, I am very aware that the report refers to a war that started 13 years ago. There have been several conflicts since; we intervened in Libya with airstrikes but not ground troops, and in Syria we did not act for several years. Is there anything about those subsequent conflicts, in which the Prime Minister led, that leads him to disagree with some of the report’s conclusions? That would give us an updated view so that we do not base all our future actions on a report about a war 13 years ago?

[The Prime Minister]

Questions like that probably need to wait for the debate, because they need longer answers. The only point I will make now is that in the case of Libya obviously we decided not to put in ground troops. That had the advantage of ensuring that there were not UK military casualties, but of course it had the disadvantage that we were less able directly to put in place a plan on the ground. The point I have tried to make today—maybe not as clearly as I should—is that these things are very difficult, by their very nature. We can have the best military plan and the best post-conflict plan—those are definitely needed—but even then there is no certainty that we will ultimately be successful. We should not pretend that there is some perfection that we can achieve. We can do a lot better than was done in the past, but we will never be perfect.

Outcome of the EU Referendum

Peter Kyle Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on speaking out against racism. We must all continue to do that. He is right that every vote counts the same.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

Once the Government agree the terms of the negotiation, is that not when the House should make a judgment on whether the terms of the negotiation match up to the promises made by the leave campaign? This House should make that judgment before the negotiations go forward.

[The Prime Minister]

This House is sovereign. Under the reforms put through by the coalition Government, this House has all sorts of opportunities to take an issue unto itself and to vote on it. That now happens much more than when I first became a Member of Parliament when it was impossible to do that. My advice would be that the House must accept the will of the country. The next Government will have to bring forward their proposals on article 50 and the rest of it, and there will have to be discussions between the Government and the House about how that goes ahead.

European Council

Peter Kyle Excerpts

Monday 22nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Everyone will have to make the choice about what platform they appear on and whom they appear with. I think that the disadvantage of appearing on any platform with either Nigel Farage or George Galloway arises when considering who their friends are, whom they support and the overseas politicians whom they seem to support. Everyone will have to think carefully about whom they want to appear with.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

There has been a lot of talk, quite rightly, about the City of London and big multinational companies working here and investing in this country, but the beating heart of our economy is the small and medium-sized enterprise sector. Some 39% of SMEs in this country export to EU countries, so does the Prime Minister agree that it would be madness to slam the door in their face?

[The Prime Minister]

I think the overwhelming majority of SMEs that export support the case that I am making. Many companies that are not exporters are involved in the supply chain with companies that do export. That is a point that many business service organisations, banks, accountants and lawyers are very well placed to make.

Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill [Lords]

Peter Kyle Excerpts

Tuesday 26th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Anna Turley]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right; that is why we support the Bill and the powers it gives to the Charity Commission. My hon. Friend is also right in talking about what is sometimes a lack of clarity and a confusion, which can be costly. We are really keen to get clarity on the grey areas, boundaries and improper balances in the Bill. It is really important that we get those on the record while the Bill has yet to be enacted and before we end up with costly processes in the High Court.

I turn specifically to new clause 1 and amendments 9, 8, 10, 11 and 12, which apply to clause 1, which relates to the Charity Commission’s new power to give warnings.

The Bill introduces a new power for the Charity Commission to issue official warnings to a charity or a charity trustee. The explanatory notes say that the power is intended to be used when the risk of an impact on charitable assets and services is relatively low, but the new power could have a far-reaching impact on charities that receive a warning. The Bill gives the commission complete discretion about publicising a warning. That could have serious reputational implications for the charity involved: the public, the media and funders may well not distinguish between a low-level issue giving rise to a warning and something much more severe. It is important that we consider the issue in the context of the high profile media issues raised recently. After all, official warnings issued by other regulators indicate a serious and high level of concern; under the Bill, the commission can issue a warning on the strength of a low-level breach of trust or just a breach of duty by a charity trustee. Indeed, it is our understanding that it intends to use the warning power in low-level cases.

As all hon. Members know, reputation is paramount for charities and charity trustees. The adverse publicity resulting from a warning could lead to a choking off of donations, grant funding and corporate sponsorships, leading to a closure of services and, potentially, to redundancies. A warning can be used as a trigger for further regulatory action; clause 2 makes a change to the circumstances in which the commission can take significant protective measures in relation to charities so that the failure to remedy an alleged breach of trust or duty specified in a warning is automatically a trigger to more serious action. That seems a startling implication for a power intended to be used in low-level cases and makes it all the more important that there should be safeguards around the exercise of the power.

Our amendments address those concerns in four ways. First, through amendment 9 and 8, they would limit the commission’s scope to publish the warning to a wide audience. The charity and its trustees would receive the warning, but no wider publicity would be involved. The warning would ensure that the charity took the commission’s concerns seriously, but would have no adverse effect on its reputation. If the charity failed to comply with the warning, the commission could take more significant regulatory action at that stage, and that might attract publicity. Low-level concerns, however, would not be publicised, to ensure that the commission’s action was proportionate and did not seriously impact—potentially fatally—a charity for a relatively minor error.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

It has been stated numerous times that the Charity Commission often sees itself as a partner in trying to improve and work with charities. Would not the method that my hon. Friend is describing be one more of partnership, using the expertise of the Charity Commission to improve and tackle the challenges that charities face in the front line? That is a much more collaborative approach, aimed at delivering outcomes for the beneficiaries, rather than a public bust-up, which could damage the Charity Commission, charities as a whole and the individual charity concerned.

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[Anna Turley]

On the contrary, it was the gagging Act that rode roughshod over the historic rights of the charity sector to defend and campaign on the causes that charities fundamentally exist to tackle.

[Peter Kyle]

My hon. Friend makes an incredibly powerful point. This is about freedom of speech for everyone—every citizen and every organisation in this country—but it is also about making sure that the disempowered, both individuals and communities who lack a voice, have advocates that can speak in as unencumbered a way as is humanly possible and with the ferocity that those in our society who lack a voice deserve.

[Anna Turley]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He pays tribute to the charities that do some of the most important work with the most excluded. Such people need a voice and are often those who suffer the consequences of bad policy making in this place. Charities often have to pick up the pieces of such policy making.

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[Maggie Throup]

I oppose new clause 3, because it seeks to alter fundamentally the way in which charities have historically operated in this country. I believe that, in creating a formalised political role for charities in our society, we risk undermining their ability to work independently for the common good, and diminishing their standing in the eyes of the public. I have serious doubts about the need for the new clause, on both a moral and a practical basis. In my view, the status quo already allows charities to lobby Governments in a constructive way, while remaining politically impartial.

Serious concerns have been raised about the additional cost of political campaigning, and the potential impact that the new remit may have on a charity’s abilities to raise funds. We ourselves are acutely aware of the fact that even a very localised campaign can be extremely costly. Extending the scope of charities to allow them to campaign for or against a law, policy or decision at any level of government would inevitably incur a significant amount of additional cost, and I think that the money would be better spent on fulfilling the charities’ original aims and objectives.

[Peter Kyle]

Does the hon. Lady not agree that the way in which a charity collects and spends its money in order to deliver its charitable mission on behalf of its service users is the preserve of its trustees, and that it is not for us to decide such operational or, indeed, moral matters in the House of Commons? It is certainly not for us, as individual Members of Parliament, to dictate to charities how they should spend their money and deliver their charitable aims; that is up to the trustees.

[Maggie Throup]

I understand where the hon. Gentleman is coming from, but I believe that new clause 3 will encourage charities to go down that route and, perhaps, stray from their original intentions, however well-meaning they may be, thus inadvertently—not intentionally, I admit—misleading the public. I fear that the inclusion of the new clause could conceivably allow us to reach a point at which a large cancer charity, for instance, spent more on lobbying national and local government than on investment in research on and development of new cancer drugs. I think that that is what the hon. Gentleman was alluding to, but I disagree with him. For me, this raises a number of major issues.

The first issue is the impact on donations. Charities rely heavily on public donations to fight for their specific cause or issue. The Charities Aid Foundation estimated recently that in 2014 alone, £10.6 billion was donated by the British public to a vast array of good causes. By politicising charities, we risk donors turning away from charities whose cause they support because they do not necessarily share the charity’s political agenda or party alignment.

Secondly, the new clause would serve to allow larger national charities, which already dedicate significant resources to lobbying Members in this place, to strengthen their influence over Government policy and decision making. That would be to the detriment of smaller, often local, charities, of which we all have many examples, which would be further marginalised from the decision-making process because they simply could not afford to compete for airtime.

There is also a third point. Like many others, I would be deeply concerned if those charities that are very much a cornerstone of our society—the Royal British Legion, Macmillan, Age UK and the NSPCC, to name but a few—suddenly became vulnerable to infiltration from those who wanted to push a specific political agenda or to use the charity to criticise or support the Government of the day, rather than running it as a force for good.

I am sure hon. Members will agree that we do not really need any more politicians. Yes, it is only right and proper that charities should play their role in shaping our society by seeking to influence Government, nationally and locally, but they also have much more to offer society without widening their scope into out-and-out political campaigning—or, as some might call it, the dark arts. That is why I will be voting against the new clause this afternoon.

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[Wendy Morton]

I join the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) in thanking the many charities that do fantastic work and that we often speak about in this place. We all have many examples that we have often shared with each other.

I welcome the Bill, and it is a privilege to speak today, having spoken on Second Reading and served, with other Members, as the Bill passed through Committee. I believe that it strengthens the powers of the Charity Commission and that those powers are welcome. It will strengthen and improve the relationship between the Charity Commission, charities, trustees and, importantly, the public. The Bill is, indeed, called the Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill.

For me, the Bill is about achieving a balance between scrutiny and accountability and trust, responsibility and respect, particularly in the wake of the handful of sad, and often tragic, stories that emerged during the course of last year, one of which has already been mentioned, the collapse of Kids Company.

I am, however, a firm believer that this must be proportionate, as I said on Second Reading. I think of some of the small charities in my constituency, such as Rosie’s Helping Hands, the Aldridge youth theatre—we often do not think of it as a charity, but it is—and, on our doorstep, St Giles hospice. Such charities are often led by the local community and by local people. Local people contribute their time, effort and energies as well as their money, and they give something back to the local community.

I want to speak against some of the amendments, particularly new clause 3 on the power to make representations and amendment 8 on warnings, which I will deal with first. The Bill is at its heart about transparency and restoring trust in the eyes of the public. That is why I feel that the power for the Charity Commission to place on record where warnings have been given is important, and that is why I will vote against amendment 8.

New clause 3 is about the power to make representations, which we have had a lively debate on in Committee and again today. We should remind ourselves of the following two points. First, deliberate abuse of charities has been found to occur only very rarely. The vast majority of charities do good work and are reputable organisations; we must never forget that. We must also remember that charities can, and do, make representations already, often very successfully. As I have said before, all of us as Members of Parliament receive representations from many charities during the course of our work. But there is a difference between non-political campaigning to raise awareness of a particular issue, even if the aim is to change policy or legislation, and what is being proposed in this new clause. I firmly believe this Bill is about strengthening the public’s trust in charities, and for me the idea of enshrining in legislation through this new clause the right to undertake political campaigning activity completely undermines that.

[Peter Kyle]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Wendy Morton]

I am normally very generous in giving way, but I have almost come to the end of my speech, so I will conclude.

New clause 3 risks moving what is fundamentally the apolitical activity of a charity to something that becomes completely politicised, and that goes against the grain.

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[Peter Kyle]

I am extremely grateful to be called to speak in this debate and to follow the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton). I was not able to intervene on her just now, but I want to make the point that, while she was talking about political activity and campaigning in her eloquent speech, which reached out to all parts of the House in many regards, she failed to mention party political campaigning, yet all campaigning is political. Political activity is not always the preserve of party politics. That point has been lost in the debate so far.

Many Members have blurred the boundaries between party political activity and political activity. All social intercourse between different communities, and people within communities up and down the country, is political exchange and should be celebrated. Our new clause seeks to protect the long-standing tradition that charities can engage in political processes within their communities and also seek to influence party politics, but not actually become part of a party political process.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making an important point. All of us as Members of Parliament will from time to time be contacted by charitable organisations that seek to influence policy makers and policy informers to change the laws of the land. For example, it would not be outwith the role of an organisation like Shelter to campaign for MPs to get changes to homelessness policies that we might be debating. That is political.

[Peter Kyle]

That is an important point, and it has been illustrated well in this debate. The right hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier) spoke eloquently about the co-operation he has had from, and the work he has done with, a charity of which he is a trustee, Unlock. Indeed, his speech was clearly intricately prepared, probably with the support of Unlock. I do not see that as party political at all, because all of us in the House today benefited from his work with Unlock. That illustrates the point that engaging with politicians does not necessarily mean engaging in a party political act. I am grateful for his speech and for his interaction with, and support from, the charity Unlock.

I support new clause 1 and amendments 8 to 12. There are three fundamental benefits to our society from charities and the role they play. The first is that often they can get to hard-to-reach groups. Through their methods and the way they have evolved over time, many charities can work with hard-to-reach pockets of our society that other organisations struggle to reach, which is an incredibly important part of their work.

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I have asked the Charity Commission to engage closely with rehabilitation charities, such as Unlock, as it develops new guidance on the waivers ahead of the commencement of the provisions. It has agreed to do so and has started to set up a working group to consider how the changes will be implemented. For example, it has invited several rehabilitation charities to a workshop in February to discuss the Bill and the implementation of these provisions.

[Peter Kyle]

Will the Minister join me in congratulating the charity Unlock on working with the right hon. Gentleman? That partnership between a party politician and a charity produced a fantastic speech. He made some very important points, and that is clearly having an impact on legislation on the Floor of the House of Commons. Is that not to be welcomed?

[Mr Wilson]

I can see the trap that the hon. Gentleman is setting for me, and I am not going to walk into it. I have further comments to make on the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Act, but I thank him for his attempt, lame though it was.

Some people who are currently trustees or senior managers will be caught by the extension of the disqualification provisions. Although the number of waiver applications is likely to increase, we do not think that a significant number of people will be affected by the changes. I would be surprised if it ran to more than the low hundreds, based on the commission’s experience under the existing disqualification regime.

I recognise the concerns that have been raised by my right hon. and learned Friend, and I am happy to commit to producing a report on our assessment of the impact of the disqualification changes. I will deposit it in the Library of the House before the commencement of the automatic disqualification provisions in clause 9. I cannot promise that we will cover every point listed in amendment 1, but I will ensure that we provide a very detailed assessment, as he has requested.

I want to ensure that the disqualification powers in the Bill protect charities from individuals who present a known risk, while at the same time providing for the rehabilitation of offenders and a way back into charity trusteeship or senior management on a case-by-case basis. That strikes me as both fair and proportionate.

Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting)

Peter Kyle Excerpts

Thursday 7th January 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Wilson]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising that really important question. Charities—particularly education charities—rely on the special relationship they have with their membership. The data protection legislation that has just been passed in Europe means that all sectors will need to move to an opt-in system in the next 18 to 24 months. That means that any organisation will require unambiguous and affirmative consent before being able to process any individual’s data. Workarounds such as assumed consent or pre-ticked boxes will simply no longer be good enough. A change is therefore coming, and it will affect all sectors, not simply the one we are discussing.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

The Minister has repeatedly asserted in his opening speech that charities need to heal the wounds resulting from the challenges they faced last year and from the public dismay that greeted some of what happened. However, would it not be more honest to acknowledge that the Government also played a role in undermining public confidence in charities last year? Will he take this opportunity to reaffirm that the Cabinet Office will no longer put millions of pounds in funds into charities that are trading insolvently—something that greatly undermined public confidence in not only one charity, but the Government themselves?

[Mr Wilson]

That really is a very strange point to make. What we saw over last summer was a number of large charities clearly targeting vulnerable and elderly people in the most immoral way and on a scale we had not seen before. The Government had no role in making that happen or even allowing it to happen. Since we discovered the scale of what was going on, we have acted extraordinarily swiftly. We have set up a new single regulatory body in a very short time, given it the powers to be successful and made sure it is funded sufficiently. We have got the sector’s backing, and a whole series of other things are now happening to make sure that that body is up and working so that the sector does not make the terrible mistakes it has made in the past.

It is also important to recognise that it is a small number of large charities that have let the whole sector down and that, by and large, small charities have had nothing to do with this. We are therefore having to focus on a fairly narrow section of the sector, but that work is important, because we have seen the figures for those who trust charities go down to below half the population—it was previously much higher—and that has had an impact on how people feel about donating to charities. A lot of the work that the Government have done over the past five or six years has been about building the idea that people should give of their time and money to volunteering and charities, and that has been a big success for the Government.

[Peter Kyle]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way again. He spoke with great passion about solving the problems that a small number of charities faced, and indeed created, with some of their fundraising practices last year. However, he also quoted figures for the damage done to the voluntary sector’s reputation, and I invited him to face up to the fact that the Government also played a role in damaging the sector’s reputation last year by overriding officials’ recommendations not to put more money into Kids Company. In doing so, the Government put millions of pounds into a charity that was trading insolvently, creating a national scandal that was reported throughout the media, which damaged the sector itself. Yes, the voluntary sector needs to own up to its challenges, but will the Government take a lead? Will the Minister say that the Government will no longer fund charities that are trading insolvently?

[Mr Wilson]

Look, there are at least three separate investigations into what happened at Kids Company, two of which are due to report by the end of this month, I think. It is important that we all wait to see what those reports say. If lessons can be learned, the Government will certainly learn them and do what we can to ensure that such things do not happen again, but to pre-empt that in this Committee would be wrong.

I was talking about the change in the nature of fundraising regulation if we had to invoke this power. It would no longer be governed by a self-regulatory system; instead, the Government would be able to invoke statutory regulation by mandating the Charity Commission with that task. Were that function to be passed to the commission, clearly it would require additional funding or would charge fees under section 19 of the Charities Act 2011.

I hope that I will never feel compelled to use this power, as it would mean that the self-regulatory system had failed. More importantly, it would mean that large charities had failed to put their house in order. However, the seriousness of the abuse in the past year or so and the impact it has had on public trust in charities has made it clear that a robust backstop is needed to ensure that the public feel that they can give with confidence and to prevent the same sorts of scandals being repeated.

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[Anna Turley]

That logic refutes the need for any special advisers, who are of course paid by the public purse to implement a political manifesto.

[Peter Kyle]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is ample charitable law stating that charities exist to serve their beneficiaries? They do not exist to serve special advisers or any other part of society; they exist to support their beneficiaries. That is the beginning, the middle and the end of the story as far as charities are concerned.

[Anna Turley]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is their full purpose, and they should feel entirely able to stand up and challenge the Government of the day, whoever they may be, and any political party if they feel that their policy does not support their charitable objectives.

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[Anna Turley]

I think that is perfectly acceptable, if people want to go to any party political event and offer their views. They may go to it and disagree with the party and challenge it. As far as I am concerned, we are in danger of separating politics from the realities of campaigning and policy making. Politics has to be open and accessible and must not exist in a vacuum. Many people are deeply involved in politics, from councillors and MPs to activists; there is not a small box for people to sit in because they are in one category but not another.

[Peter Kyle]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there are many ways to achieve social change? One is to go into communities and work with individuals on the frontline, and another is to change public policy. An individual using the front-line method can change hundreds of people’s lives, but changing public policy can change millions of lives for the better. Is not it right that charities should seek to bring about front-line change and involve themselves in public policy simultaneously?

[Anna Turley]

I agree that that is part of their core objectives and part of what they have done for centuries. I am happy to support that.

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[Anna Turley]

I do not understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, because gift aid is made automatically to charities that people may or may not support. A taxpayer may be paying gift aid to a charity whose aims and objectives they may not support. That is the logic.

[Peter Kyle]

May I invite my hon. Friend just to clarify one point? We are talking—are we not?—about charities having the ability to support individual policies. They are not being invited or allowed to support political parties.

[Anna Turley]

My hon. Friend makes a really important point. This measure is not about party political campaigning; it is about lobbying and putting pressure on the Government, and on all political parties—[Interruption.]

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[Anna Turley]

I disagreed with everything until the hon. Lady’s last point. Charities totally value their independence. Previous legislation has sought to stifle their independence and to prevent proper challenge and scrutiny of Government in the build-up to an election, but the new clause seeks to protect that.

[Peter Kyle]

Does my hon. Friend agree that what would damage the trust of people who give so much to charities and of beneficiaries is to see Government discussing and making policies for an area that concerns them directly while the charity stays mute because it is not allowed by law to intervene or even talk publicly about that area?

[Anna Turley]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. When people support a charity—whatever the issue, whether it is cancer treatment or supporting the elderly to have a dignified older age—they want to see it making a difference, and that is in everything, from campaigning and having a loud voice nationally to seeking to secure changes to our society.

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[Mr Wilson]

The New Schools Network is not a party political organisation. I think that that is best left there.

[Peter Kyle]

The Minister talks about the importance of independence and the fact that beneficiaries need to see charities being independent-minded. They absolutely do, but does he not accept that to be independent, charities need to be able to choose the terms on which they engage with public policy? It is interesting that the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley), who sits on the Government Benches, has invited Donald Trump to his constituency because he thinks it will be an important statement of free speech in our country. Is it not strange that we live in a world where Donald Trump and billionaires are invited here to demonstrate the principle of freedom of speech, while we are discussing charities’ freedom of speech being inhibited in the run-up to a general election, when the voices of the disempowered are needed the most?

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[Mr Wilson]

My hon. Friend makes the points powerfully. He has returned a number of times to a point that is relevant and of huge public interest: charities should not use Government funding for political activity. That should be clear from the terms and conditions attached to any Government funding of a particular charity. For political activity, charities can use other funding, such as voluntary donations or earned income from trading. I understand what he says, and I have set out clearly the Government’s view .

[Peter Kyle]

The hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling makes an important point. Empowered individuals absolutely have the right to speak for themselves, as does any citizen of this country. The problem we have is that some citizens in this country do not have the ability to be heard or to voice their concerns—the disempowered people, who are often hidden away from general discussion and from public policy. That is why civil society organisations need the power to speak vocally on behalf of the people who do not represent themselves equally in a democracy. Does the Minister not agree?

[Mr Wilson]

Once again, I am surprised at the hon. Gentleman’s question. At the outset, I said clearly that charities should be able to speak truth to power. That is absolutely fine—

[Peter Kyle]

Not during an election.

[Mr Wilson]

Whatever time of year it is. The hon. Gentleman singles out elections. We have Lord Hodgson looking at this. The Charity Commission has looked at the incidents that took place during elections. So far, I have seen no evidence of any chilling effect, and I await Lord Hodgson’s report to support the hon. Gentleman’s case.

Attempting to put into statute a provision of case law risks changing the boundaries of what is permitted. It just is not feasible to encapsulate all the nuances of case law in a simple single statutory provision. We have already explored those risks in the context of clause 9 and the protection of charity assets, and it would be no different here.

It is not clear whether new clause 2 would permit charities to support political parties, for example, by allowing charities to undertake political campaigning without defining exactly what that means. Given our earlier conversation about the Badger Trust, I think even the hon. Member for Redcar is not clear about what constitutes political campaigning and what does not. The new clause is just one example of where a well meaning attempt to codify case law in a statutory provision can go badly wrong, resulting in potentially significant unintended consequences.

There is also a risk that the new clause would permit charities to overstep the current mark in another way: under the law as it stands, charities cannot engage in campaigning to such an extent that it calls into question their charitable status. If the only thing the organisation does is non-party political campaigning, one would question whether it is an organisation with political rather than charitable purposes. That is already encompassed in case law, but it is not clear to me whether new clause 2 would encompass that restriction, potentially opening up charitable status to political organisations. That would clearly damage public trust in charities, which I am sure the hon. Lady does not intend.

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[Anna Turley]

Okay.

[Peter Kyle]

To clarify, the new clauses are about trying to get better value for the public from private and selective education. To use a previous argument of the hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling, where taxpayers’ money is—

[Tom Tugendhat]

Taken by force.

[Peter Kyle]

—taken by force and given to selective education, we need to ensure that the public who pay for it get full value for it.

[Anna Turley]

I totally agree, and I will come on to that point shortly. I want to make it clear that my view of pulling up the ladder is selective education, but I will move on, because we can have a whole conversation outside the Committee on that. I agree with the good work that many independent schools are doing; it is just not enough, in my view.

A recent report by the Social Market Foundation showed that UK children who are privately educated are likely to earn almost £200,000 more between the ages of 26 and 42 than those in state schools. Independent schools seem to be stretching further away from even middle-class families, who have been priced out of private education because of an “endless queue” of wealthy people from outside Britain pushing up fees. Andrew Halls, the head teacher of King’s College School in Wimbledon, south-west London, recently said that local lawyers, accountants and military officers had stopped sending their children to the school because of the costs. He said that in many cases, such schools have become

“finishing schools for the children of oligarchs”.

It is simply not appropriate that while the social and financial advantages to independent school pupils persists, they are subsidised by the British taxpayer through the charitable status. My hon. Friend the Member for Hove made the point that I was going to make about the view of the hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling on value for money. Charitable status is now an outdated and inappropriate financial privilege that is impossible to justify without substantial action from independent schools, which is what the new clauses seek to achieve.

Charitable status currently means that trustees of school charities have a responsibility to ensure they are running the school for the public benefit. Public benefit is part of what it means to be a charity, to operate as a charity and to report on a charity’s work. The Charity Commission produces guidance for charity trustees on each of those aspects of public benefit and the particular issues that relate to the different charitable purposes that the law recognises. All charity trustees have a duty to have regard to the Commission’s public benefit guidance and must report each year on how they have carried out their charity’s purposes for the public benefit. The Commission publishes those reports on the online public register of charities and checks a random sample of them. Trustees must therefore take action to ensure that the school does not solely benefit those who pay fees, yet the critical point is that it is up to the trustees to determine how that is achieved, and that is what we seek to challenge.

During the Bill’s passage through the other place, these new clauses were voted down on the understanding that the Charity Commission would pursue non-legislative routes. The Charity Commission updated its guidance in October last year, but the only change was to “encourage” schools to show in their annual reports how, for example, they have shared sports facilities; there is no compulsion to do so. It can only be concluded from that limited reaction that there is no desire for any progress on this issue. Indeed, it goes against the very principle of why people send their children to independent schools. Why would someone pay to send their children to schools for the facilities if other local children who do not pay get to use them? There is no inherent incentive for independent schools to share their facilities.

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[Jo Churchill]

I could not agree more—it is not always necessary to tell people how to behave well.

The school has forged great community links and the council and people in my constituency got another sports ground for very little investment. It helps social cohesion and health outcomes, among other things, as the hon. Member for Redcar alluded to.

My underlying belief is that people should be allowed to choose what is right for themselves and their family. The clauses would legislate choice and good behaviour out of the system to a degree, and that is regressive. Indeed, if my memory serves me correctly, the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) chose to send her son to a private school. As a mother, I can understand her need to make that choice about what is best for her child. Should we deprive others of that choice? I do not think so, but the new clauses could begin to do that.

The worry is that the clauses will not allow small schools that offer specialisms in areas that the hon. Member for Redcar discussed to continue to do so across the board, particularly for gifted music scholars, those who are talented at sports and budding linguists. All have benefited from education in the independent sector. Many of these schools offer bursaries and 100% scholarships to youngsters whose parents would not normally be able to afford the fees. Similarly, and of the utmost importance, some of the best education for our children with dyslexia or autism occurs in the independent sector, easing the burden on state schools to provide special needs support.

[Peter Kyle]

As an acute dyslexic, I understand the benefits that can be bestowed on students who are lucky enough to have parents who are able to send them to such schools. Does the hon. Lady accept that she is citing best practice in the private schools sector, and that the new clauses seek to extend best practice throughout the whole sector?

[Jo Churchill]

No, I am not. I am standing here and saying we must be allowed to choose. I am the mother of four children, two of whom are acutely dyslexic. They have both been educated fully in the state system at a school that is excellent. What I am saying is that independent schools must be allowed to function as they see fit and to pay back in a way that is appropriate; the Charity Commission will be the regulatory body, as will Ofsted and the ISI. An organisation cannot be compelled to devolve out, because all that will do is create yet more unfairness.

Independent schools are often a vital resource, depended on by local authorities. That has to be considered, because we cannot account for all the specialisms. Many local authorities use such provision to help disadvantaged children to get on. More than 66,000 pupils in the independent sector have special educational needs. For that reason, we should be very cautious of doing anything that ties the hands of schools.

I believe that we should empower school leaders—and I mean all school leaders. Leaders in this sector often assert that the clear vision, ethos and purpose on which they are founded and the freedom to deliver allows them to excel. That should be there for all schools to allow them to bring rounded people into society who have the same fair chance at everything.

All schools with charity status currently have to demonstrate a charitable purpose. A strong Charity Commission will hold them to account. It should not be for us in this place to over-regulate. There are excellent examples of this Government promoting schemes that help, such as the National Citizen Service. My children attended the scheme with children from the independent sector and children who had been in dire straits with different authorities. All went on the scheme together, which allowed them to learn, experience and become well rounded.

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[Jo Churchill]

There is no point. First, smaller schools, which make up more than half the number of independent schools, could not afford to put on a programme on such a vast scale. Secondly, a scheme exists to get social mobility between different areas and have children learn from each other. I am worried by the over-prescription of this measure and the need to regulate something that does not need to be.

I feel able to comment as somebody who believes in choice. The choice I made for my four children was to educate them entirely in the state system. The point at which they had any degree of paid provision was when they were in nursery. As they were all born during the previous Labour Government, I could not access any provision I did not pay for.

[Peter Kyle]

There is less now.

[Jo Churchill]

That is not actually the case. With the extension of provision to two-year-olds and three and four-year-olds, there will be considerably more than I was granted.

After many years as a school governor at a high-achieving secondary school in the state system and a primary school for those with special educational needs, I believe that independent schools have to abide by the obligations placed on them, and the Charity Commission is there to do a job. To prescribe their behaviour further is not only unnecessary but may well force small specialist schools out of existence due to the red tape and cost of administration. It is nothing to do with what they deliver.

These proposed new clauses are ill considered and should be rejected. They will not give any of us what we all desire, which is an excellent education for all our children, so they become well rounded individuals who can contribute to society and have an equal chance of doing what they wish.

[Mr Wilson]

I start by congratulating my hon. Friend on her excellent speech, which was clearly based on an enormous amount of personal knowledge. I also thank all Members of the Committee for their contributions over the past four or five sittings. We have had an excellent Committee stage, where we have given the Bill a rigorous check on what it should and should not do. I look forward to Third Reading and Report.

I agree that we should do more to promote stronger partnerships between independent and state schools. Where I differ from Opposition Members is in how we go about that. We should recognise that many strong partnerships already exist, as my hon. Friend and other hon. Members have said, and they are growing in number and impact.

Before I go into detail, I want to clear up a point the hon. Member for Redcar made about Lord Moynihan’s views. Lord Moynihan actually agreed with us that encouraging charities to do more to share facilities was a better approach than legislating to force them to do so. That ought to be on record so as to make clear Lord Moynihan’s views.

[Peter Kyle]

When I was an adviser at the Cabinet Office I had the benefit of working on the 2006 Charities Bill, later the Charities Act 2006, which brought in the public benefit test. We discussed public schools then and considered drafting and implementing an amendment not dissimilar to the new clauses at that stage of legislation. At that point, we had representations from independent schools, which strongly said that they would improve community relations and that self-regulation and actions from within the sector would deliver demonstrable change. Can the Minister tell the Committee the degree by which the sector has improved in the intervening years and whether that will extend further without the need for legislation?

[Mr Wilson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point. I will come to it later in my speech, rather than deal with it up front.

There are both principled and practical reasons why legislating to force charitable independent schools to do more is wrong and could be counterproductive. Let me start with the principled argument against these new clauses. Public benefit is a requirement at the centre of the definition of a charity. All charities, regardless of their size or charitable purpose, must exist for public benefit. Public benefit itself is not defined in statute, but has a meaning given by a body of case law that has been built up over several hundred years, which sets out clear principles but gives the definition the flexibility needed to deal with a wide range of types of charities. The way in which a charity demonstrates its public benefit and the extent to which it does so is for its trustees to decide, taking into account the circumstances of the charity and other relevant factors. It is not for the Charity Commission to interfere unless charities fail to meet the requirement.

An Upper Tribunal ruling in 2011 set the parameters for charitable independent schools. Public benefit must be real and not tokenistic, but beyond that it is not for the Charity Commission to dictate to schools the type or amount of public benefit they provide. That should be a matter for the trustees of the charity, who must take into account the charity’s circumstances.

There is a wide range of ways in which charitable independent schools can and do provide benefits, including academic partnerships with state schools, sharing sporting or other facilities and expertise, and providing bursaries and other financial assistance to those who cannot afford the fees. There is also the important indirect benefit of relieving the taxpayer of the cost of educating 7% of the nation’s children. It is for the trustees to determine the way in which their charity provides a public benefit. The law places the decision on which approach or combination of approaches the charity takes in the hands of the charity’s trustees.

It would be wrong to single out one type of charity in legislation and stipulate one particular type and the extent of public benefit that it must provide. No other type of charity is treated in that way, and it would set a very dangerous precedent. What would be next? Religious charities, overseas aid charities or campaigning charities? Once the precedent has been set, the risk is that the temptation to interfere would be too great for some to resist, and specific legislative requirements could creep in over the years for different types of charities. If unchecked, there is a real danger that over time charities would be opened up to significantly increased state interference—whether or not politically motivated—which could seriously undermine the charity sector’s independence. In this Committee, all parties have sought to protect the independence of charities and trustees.

Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting)

Peter Kyle Excerpts

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Wilson]

I understand what my hon. Friend says, and I believe there would be a level of support among the public for that. There certainly are commercial confidentiality considerations, in the same way as there are for Government contracts, but I will look seriously at what he said and come back to him.

To take that point a little further, there are questions about how extensive the problem of poor fundraising is for charities. The hon. Member for Redcar said that it is a small problem that affects a small number of charities. By and large that is true, but the Fundraising Standards Board received 52,000 complaints in one year, so the activity is deep-rooted. That is why it is important that we introduce these measures and try to do something about it. I believe that these two measures, coupled with the others, will help to stop some of the poor practices. They will ensure that there is oversight and accountability among the trustees and that fundraising is overseen directly.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

It would be nice if the Minister said how many of the 52,000 complaints that he has mentioned were upheld. For context, we should bear in mind that the charitable sector, despite the very focused challenges in recent months, is still the most trusted sector in society.

[Mr Wilson]

The hon. Gentleman will have seen in the recent reports that trust has gone down to 2008 levels as a result of some of the stories that have been heavily profiled in the media. The issue is not whether 52,000 complaints were upheld; it is that 52,000 people felt that they had to complain about being inundated with telephone calls or direct mail containing information that, in many cases, they obviously did not want to receive. Clearly, the public are seriously concerned about the targeting of elderly and vulnerable people in particular. I believe we are doing the right thing in introducing these measures and changing the law to ensure that charities are directly accountable for the fundraisers that act on their behalf. They must ensure that those fundraisers act in a proportionate and moral way that reflects the best practices of the charity itself.

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[Peter Kyle]

Does the Minister agree that the trustees of a charity are ultimately responsible for safeguarding the way that money is spent and for upholding the moral activity of the charity?

[Mr Wilson]

That is exactly what these measures are for. They will ensure that trustees look at the things they should be looking at: how their fundraising is conducted and how it interfaces with the public. The two measures will ensure they do that through the annual report and the contracts that they sign with third parties. It is for exactly those reasons that we are making these changes.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 14 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 15

Power to make social investments

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill [ Lords ] (Third sitting)

Peter Kyle Excerpts

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Wilson]

I will respond to a few of the points made by Opposition Members. On the issue that not all housing associations have signed up for the deal, as I said earlier, 93% of the total housing association stock is covered by those housing associations that have said yes to getting involved in this deal, which is voluntary. The message from the Opposition seems to be that the deal is not voluntary, but compulsory. It is quite the opposite; 93% of the housing stock in England has signed up for this deal.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

The Minister cites the example of 93% of housing stock being covered by housing associations. Will he give the percentage of housing associations that are signing up to the Government’s plans?

[Mr Wilson]

I think it is somewhere in the region of 75% of housing associations, which is a substantial majority. We want as many housing associations as possible to sign up, and we want as many tenants as possible, throughout the country, to have the opportunity of homeownership.

[Peter Kyle]

So do we.

[Mr Wilson]

I am glad to hear the hon. Gentleman say that he wants more homeowners in the country. One way to do that is to enable people to buy their own home in this way—1.3 million extra tenants will be able to have the advantage and security of owning their own home, which is a laudable ambition for any Government.

As for whether the right place to discuss the detail is here or on the Floor of the House, the Housing and Planning Bill is back before the House tonight and we are discussing a lot of things that relate more to housing matters and that Bill than to charitable matters. The right place to raise some of these issues would be later tonight on the Floor of the House.

On the Charity Commission’s powers, and in response to the point made by the hon. Member for Redcar, the Charity Commission did not ask for the responsibilities that have been inserted by this clause in the other place, but it did ask for many of the other responsibilities and powers that we are passing to it in the Bill.

The finances that will be released to housing associations through the sale of properties is substantial, as the hon. Member for Ilford North said. As it is a like-for-like replacement, the amount of affordable housing stock should increase substantially. We are undertaking a pilot with five housing associations. It is under way and should enable us to hone and inform the detail of the final scheme that we put in place.

I hope that that answers the main questions raised by Opposition Members. It is important to note that the Government have begun the process with the announcement yesterday of 13,000 new affordable houses, which we will build on Government land and contract directly rather than going through local authorities or housing associations. That is a big step forward to try to break the logjam that we have seen in affordable housing in the past couple of decades. By the end of the Parliament, we hope that we will have been able to deliver 200,000 new starter homes that are affordable homes for first-time buyers under the age of 40, which will give people with the ambition of owning their own home a first step on the housing ladder. That is a laudable aim for any Government to have.

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[Anna Turley]

It is an important point in terms of ambition versus reality, but I appreciate your point, Mrs Main, and I will stick to the clause. I was interested to hear that about three quarters of housing associations have signed up, because the housing association in my area has not signed up and has strong views against it. I am also not convinced that the Minister has a plan for like-for-like replacement. The Government’s record on that is not strong.

[Peter Kyle]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[The Chair]

Before I call the hon. Gentleman, may I say that this is the Charities Bill and I hope that we will not go too far discussing housing numbers and so on?

[Peter Kyle]

I am grateful, Mrs Main, and I hope that I will not stretch the latitude you have given us. My hon. Friend is correct in expressing concerns from the charitable sector about like-for-like replacement, because that is about the sequestration of charitable assets for private use. Does she share my concern that in Brighton and Hove, which I represent, and other such cities, like-for-like replacements will almost certainly be built in areas very different from those in which the original properties are sold because of the constraints on the land in that area, so charitable assets that were deemed to be in one place will end up in other locations?

[Anna Turley]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. The issue is the charitable ambitions of housing associations in supporting those who are most vulnerable and in need. The danger is that we are moving away from that.

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[Mr Wilson]

I will be brief. I think I failed to answer one of the questions asked by the hon. Member for Redcar which has been raised again by the hon. Member for Cardiff Central. I will try to deal with the two areas.

One concern is that the disqualification power, in particular condition F, is too broad. The hon. Member for Redcar is right to say that it is a significant new power. The intention in clause 11 is not to use those powers frequently, as I said in my opening remarks. However, it is absolutely essential to have the criteria to enable the Charity Commission to address conduct that could seriously damage public trust and confidence in charities but would not be caught by conditions A to F.

The condition therefore needs to be considered in the context of the other criteria for the exercise of the disqualification power, namely the test of fitness and the fact that the disqualification is desirable in the public interest to protect public trust and confidence in charities. It is a tripartite matter: all three things have to be looked at together. The Charity Commission has published draft guidance on how it would exercise the powers. I have been through that in some detail.

On the other issue, I would say that there are excellent safeguards to make sure that the powers are not in misused in any way. There are six points to bear in mind that are all safeguards. First, an individual must meet new, tougher criteria to become a trustee in the first place. They are not automatically disqualified under clause 10 because we have broadened the automatic disqualifications, as we discussed in relation to the previous clause.

Secondly, if the Charity Commission then decides to disqualify the trustee, three new criteria have to be met. As I have said, those are conditions A to F. The individual has to be deemed unfit to be a charity trustee, as defined by Charity Commission guidance. Thirdly, the Charity Commission must be satisfied that disqualifying is in the public interest. Those are quite tough criteria, but then the commission has to give notice of its intention to disqualify and give a period for representations to be made, which it then has to take into account before any decision is made.

If the decision is made to disqualify, disqualification only takes effect after a period of time has elapsed, during which the individual can lodge an appeal to the charity tribunal. Another safeguard has therefore been slotted in. If the decision is appealed to the tribunal, the tribunal will be able to confirm or overturn the disqualification. A really important point is that in making the decision, the tribunal would consider the case afresh. It would not just go over what the Charity Commission looked at. It would look at it as a completely blank sheet of paper. I think those safeguards should reassure the hon. Lady that this is not a power that is going to be misused in any way.

[Peter Kyle]

School academies are often registered with the Charity Commission and are registered charitable entities and trusts in their own right, so some school governors of academies are also trustees. Both Ofsted and regional school commissioners can remove governors, so that will have implications for removing trustees. Clearly, different regulatory bodies have an impact on the governance arrangements of charities at the moment. Has the Minister had discussions with the Department for Education to see whether there is a conflict from this new set of regulations with other Government Departments, such as Education?

[Mr Wilson]

I have not had any direct conversations with the Department for Education, but my officials are in contact with that Department regularly across a number of these areas. I would be slightly surprised if that had not been discussed at some point, but the commission will be looking at all these things and taking them into account—[Interruption.] Ah, a note has appeared on my desk. Apparently, there is no conflict with other regulators’ powers and practices, so I hope that reassures the hon. Gentleman.